Do we know for a fact we are saved

[TEPO]

I’m afraid that if Catholics dont wake-up and acknowledge the magnitude of the gift that we were given then --we’ll just end up like the Jews who were lost in the desert… We’ll start forming our own “worldly” laws… We will have lost God! We will “give-away” our covenant.

 

[TEPO]

You just mocked justification if I understand what that means correctly. I think Lutherans and Catholics understand the gift Jesus gave was Justification, not sanctification. I am open to correction on this matter however.

No, Jesus died on the cross for the “forgiveness of sins”… That is what Salvation is…
There are 4 parts of Salvation… We must do them all as much as needed and in the right order -to be “saved”…

1. sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
2. redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
3. forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
4. justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.

agapebiblestudy.com/docum…0Salvation.htm

 

[TEPO]

To be saved is to be given medicine. A Holy medicine that cures death.

 

[StrawberryJam]

No, Jesus died on the cross for the “forgiveness of sins”… That is what Salvation is…
There are 4 parts of Salvation… We must do them all as much as needed and in the right order -to be “saved”…

1. sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
2. redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
3. forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
4. justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.

agapebiblestudy.com/docum…0Salvation.htm

Thanks TEPO,

I thought that sanctification was a lifelong process. Perhaps you can tell me when it stops?

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . Whatever does this have to do with my post? Threats of hell are not making the elephant in the room dissapear. I would appreciate it if you could refute the points I made in my post or stop addressing me or my post. I am willing and able to stand by what I say. And, change my position if given more credible information. Can you?

The hell card was already used once here by you, does it get more believable with repetition? I thought protestants were against vain repetition? Unless you feel it’s God’s will to needlessly repeat yourself in the course of one post. . . .

StrawberryJam,

I do believe that only God can judge one’s heart. Only God understands the obstacles–the stumbling blocks that keep us from fully embracing Him.

I have committed far more than my share of sins in my 55 years. A prayer that I often pray is, “Lord, thank you for rescuing me from things I did not deserve to be rescued from.” Maybe that sounds like a strange prayer, but I have felt the hand of God pulling me up and out of so many bad situations–situations I created by my own choices.

One of the reasons I am so bothered by the use of the threat of Hell to “win converts for Christ” (as if any of us really have the power to do that) is that it seems insulting to Christ. It’s as if people can’t trust the message and call of Christ–so they decide to “help” the cause of salvation by using fear tactics.

Those fear tactics defeat the message and great love demonstrated by our Lord. God loved us so much, He sent His Son as the Word Incarnate. Christ took on a human body and walked among us. He preached, taught, healed the sick, raised the dead, and demonstrated love in a way that is difficult for us to comprehend.

Christ loved us so much that He suffered humiliation and torment and an agonizing death, taking upon Himself the sins of humanity. As he suffered on the cross, He asked God to forgive those who sent Him to the cross. What love does mankind know that compares to this? Every moment of His life, down to His last breath, was a testament to love, truth, and mercy. Christ conquered death. He made our reconciliation to God possible. He offers us eternal life.

Christ said He will draw all people to Himself.
**John 12 (ESV): **32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Christ’s “one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
Romans 5:14-19 (English Standard Version):
14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, **much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
**
16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

17**For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
**
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Here we have this beautiful gift. This great love is given to us again and again. I have witnessed Christ’s power over and over through the years. I am overwhelmed by His love and great mercy.

Strawberry, when I think of you–I see this vision of Christ awaiting you with open arms. It is so clear. It is a beautiful vision, and it is filled with overwhelming love–not threats, not judgment—just the welcoming arms of Christ, who says,

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-29)

So, Strawberry, my dear friend, let no one taint the message of Christ–it is a message of hope, and love, and redemption. I pray for you my friend, that you will find this great love and never let it go.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[TEPO]

Thanks TEPO,

I thought that sanctification was a lifelong process. Perhaps you can tell me when it stops?

Wow… You called that one.
Looks like sanctification lasts forever!

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/the%204%20different%20aspects%20of%20salvation.htm
"Sanctification: Being made holy.
The first sanctification takes place at baptism, by which the love of God is infused by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). Newly baptized persons are holy because the Holy Trinity begins to dwell in their souls and they are pleasing to God.

The second sanctification is a lifelong process in which a person already in the state of grace grows in the possession of grace and in likeness to God by faithfully corresponding with divine inspirations.

The third sanctification takes place when a person enters heaven and becomes totally and irrevocably united with God in the beautific vision. (Etym. Latin sanctificare, ‘to make holy’.)" Catholic Dictionary p. 393; CCC # 703, 767, 819-827, 1540, 1989-99, 2001

Holiness/Sanctification in its three dimensions

Past Present Future"

 

[Roblox84]

But you don’t seem to realize that the thief wasn’t saved because he said he was, but because He said he was. And this judgement was made at the man’s death. The judgement wasn’t the man’s opinion of his own faith. The judgement was God’s.

We’ll all be judged at our deaths–not before.

I think those who say that they are saved should be saying, “In my opinion, I am saved.” There is no way that they know God’s opinion/judgement. And how could they know it before it happens, anyway? (Knowing that though God knows all, we live in earthly time and can’t know the future.) You (universal) are going to be judged at death. If God is going to judge you at your death, how is it that you (universal) are judge today?

I’ve encountered “judges” who are hard on others - they seem to know who is and isn’t a “true” Christian. But I’ve yet to meet a “judge” who says that he’s not saved.

From what protestants tell me, it seems as though they have a different meaning of “judged”. They know they will go to heaven, but being judged means to them that they will just be told what they did wrong and why, but in the long run they will still get into heaven.

 

[fbl9]

This is where my problem lies… I can find no catholic definition for “eternal salvation”… I disagree with its use in the CCC paragraph 847… I don’t know of any Catholic who can define “eternal salvation”. Salvation (saved) is more like a “gift” or a “remedy”… The completed “project” is known as: “sainthood” (everyone who lives in heaven is a saint)
These are teh 4 parts of salvation (saved):
agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Defining%20Salvation.htm

1. sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
2. redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
3. forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
4. justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.

This is my problem: When catholics start trying to figure out how to include more people into Gods plan -we have just overstepped our boundaries… Salvation is not our’s to give, only God can offer it… He offered it for ALL MEN when he made His Son a spectacle of humiliation and disgrace… God did that on purpose… So ALL MEN who are good -would heed the call. Jesus was even able to rescue the trapped souls of the O.T who were not able to enter heaven since Adams fall (the gates were closed)…

I am not rying to figur more people into God’s plan…i am merely stating we should not view those on the outside(non-christians) as being without a chance,and preach to them they are hell bound because they don’t know the truth…Yet the good news is that good news not news of going to hell…how many times did Jesus or the apostles teach (threaten) their listeners with hell when teaching them the truth,(i am meaning the masses of people not the teachers whom ought to have known)…

I think that we should just forget about those who did’nt hear the word… Let God do what God does since it was His idea. I say this because we have lost our focus on Jesus… We are forgetting the seriousness and magnitude of the new covenant. I’ve seen catholics fade off and try to include even devout Muslims into the plan of salvation? One catholic went as far as to say that the 9/11 bombers would be in heaven because of their faith…

That is not for us to decide like St.Paul said “what do i have to do with judging those on the outside”

Read my little story:

A man went out to buy his wife a very special valentines day gift but had to travel 40 days by foot to get it… On his way he was lied to and abandoned by his best friend… Then the authorities falsely accused him of trespassing and threw him in jail… While in jail he was beaten, mocked, spit-on, stabbed, and humiliated in front of hundreds of people… Three days later he was released and hobbled home to his wife… With tears in his eyes he handed her the gift… She holds it, lets off a sigh, sets it down and says: “its nice but I wanted something better that I could take to share with my friends.”

This is how I feel. Does it make any sense?

i do understand what you are saying…enough sidetracking for now maybe we should stick to the title of this thread for now

 

[TEPO]

I am not rying to figur more people into God’s plan…i am merely stating we should not view those on the outside(non-christians) as being without a chance,and preach to them they are hell bound because they don’t know the truth…Yet the good news is that good news not news of going to hell…how many times did Jesus or the apostles teach (threaten) their listeners with hell when teaching them the truth,(i am meaning the masses of people not the teachers whom ought to have known)…

You and I are seeing the same thing through two different paradigms… Its like we have two different magnifying glasses… Mine is not more correct than yours, and likewise.

The difference is that: You seem to focus on avoiding using hell as a tool to “scare” people into the faith… You are right!

My focus is on getting the catholic Church to remember the great gift we were given, and to never forget that Jesus is the ONLY source for salvation! Mohamed cannot offer people the “forgiveness of sins”… Only Jesus was given the authority to offer it…

I will admit that the threat of hell is not the proper way to teach the Gospel, if you will admit that Jesus is the ONLY source of salvation. Since only Jesus can distribute the medicine of salvation. One can only be saved through Jesus.

That is not for us to decide like St.Paul said “what do i have to do with judging those on the outside”

I’m afraid you haven’t located my paradigm… Shift to my magnifying glass please.

I see: Catholics offering the gift of salvation to anyone with a general faith in anything!
I cannot advocate the idea that a suicide bomber could be saved by killing! That was the point, --it is not faith in any god, one must have faith in JESUS exclusively to be saved. That is to receive the gift of “washing their sins away” before death.

i do understand what you are saying…enough sidetracking for now maybe we should stick to the title of this thread for now

I am not sidetracking. Cant you make the connection? You might have to put down your magnifying glass, and look through mine!

I see: Catholics overlooking everything that Jesus worked for, because they wanted salvation to be “better”. How is this doing Gods will? Don’t you understand that Jesus said the only way to be saved is to believe in Him? Read the story again, and put Jesus as the husband, and the Church as the wife…

Don’t you see it?

(the title of this thread is “do we know for a fact we are saved” -not- “are those who never knew Jesus saved”!)

Why dont you forget about them, and let God figure it out?

 

[TEPO]

Do you think that there could be any significance here in comparison to Sodham and Gomorrah, where Lot’s wife looked back and turned to a pillar of salt?

***.newadvent.org/fathers/160355.htm
“forgetting those things which are behind, let us, with the Apostle, reach forth unto those things which are before. For so he says; But one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, reaching forth unto those things which are before, I follow on earnestly unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Nothing then is so hostile to hope, as to look back, to place hope, that is, in those things which flit by and pass away; but in those things should we place it, which are not yet given, but which sometime will be given, and will never pass away. But when the world is deluged by trials, as it were the sulphureous rain of Sodom, the example of Lot’s wife must be feared. For she looked behind; and in the spot where she looked behind, there did she remain. She was turned into salt, that she might season the wise by her example.”

 

[kalt]

From what protestants tell me, it seems as though they have a different meaning of “judged”. They know they will go to heaven, but being judged means to them that they will just be told what they did wrong and why, but in the long run they will still get into heaven.

’

Like waiting for a report card with no risk of failure. The grades are recorded in case you’re curious about exactly how you did in a particular class.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Which saints were purged?

In part this is because they are the timeless equivalent of modern celebrities: people who seem to exist more vividly, more perfectly, than the rest of us. Some saints, in fact, have every merit except that of existence: there was a considerable purge in the last century which led to the disappearance of popular saints such as St George and St Christopher, neither of whom may have existed at all; though there is a tradition, maintained by the historian Edward Gibbon, that St George was in fact a corrupt military contractor in fifth century Alexandria. St Christopher, too, whose image dangles from uncounted key-rings, has been removed from the calendar of saints as a legend, though this does not seem to diminish the faith that drivers have in him.

Source:

The entire article is worth reading and a simple google or Yahoo search and some basic knowledge of the history of saints and how, by popularity based on “legend” produced many. John Paul II, what i believe is based on a gesture of “good will” did begin the beautification process on people in nearly every country he visited as the article points out.

Overall; it is a contradiction based on the churches own teaching against the sin of presumption - that is how I see it. If you cannot know your own salvation, then it makes sense you cannot know another’s even less.

That is just my thoughts in applying what I consider “common sense”.

I am not Catholic and that is there business if they want to show apparent contradictions to their own philosophies. It is part of the Vatican II, let’s all join hands together movement, which is condemned by those Catholics that reject Vatican II, which after a fair amount of research and speaking to two of my neighbors recently on the subject I have an understanding and am empathetic to their frustrations.

Keep in mind anyone who may take some sort of offense; this is strictly my opinion and an observation; nothing more and I do not really care who they canonize or beautify because you will not find the ordinary Catholic laity who lead the faithful life in ordinary ways ever be beautified much less canonized as a saint.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Masters,

You missed my point entirely. You are making one false assumption after another. Sometimes one’s journey to accepting Christ takes time. The word of God is spoken and demonstrated on these forums everyday.

Yet, the tone of your posts is both condescending and judgmental, as if you are the only one who understands and believes the Word of God. No matter what anyone says, nothing seems to get through to you.

Anna

Well Anna, that is one persons opinion and another person opinion was different than yours. Not matter what the truth about what God has told us seems to get through to you.

 

[Masters_Servant]

To dwell with God in heaven.

Now can you please answer the question: How can one reject that which they have no knowldge of?

Read Romans 1 and the first paragraph of Romans 2 and you will see that there is no ignorance of God. The only exceptions would be those that are unable to recognize by mental capacity limitations, but Romans 1 & 2 do not speak to this; it bases the assumption on people that are “normal”.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Well if a certain person is gone form this world yet God still works through the name of this person do you think that this person is not with God?That is how the destination of this person was deterimined, by God still working through this person.There is no judging invovlved rather deduction…
The very fact that i am still on this mud ball tells me i am not saved for if i were saved i would not be here but with God in heaven.I am certain though that i am **being ** saved through the mercy of God.

Judas Iscariot is my answer to the logic you just used.

 

[Masters_Servant]

TEPO:

This is where our problem is…

I believe that “saved” means -to have your sins washed away.

I do NOT believe that “saved” means “dwell in heaven”

If your sins are washed away; it follows that you will be in heaven; the two go hand in hand; it is the gospel. Rather than focusing on what you think, try focusing on what God has said and He means what He says and what He says is truth regardless of anyones opinion on the matter.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Consider the following analogy. I have signed up to play on the basketball team. I show up for practice wearing a T-shirt, gym shorts, and hi-top basketball shoes. I have showed the coach that I want to be on his team, and that’s ultimately all he wants. Even if I don’t make every basket, he will still sign me up for his team because I have come ready to play. I am practicing basketball. If, however, I show up for practice wearing shin guards, kneepads and a helmet, the coach is definitely not going to sign me up for his team since I haven’t shown to him that I’m ready to play. Even if I make quite a few baskets, the bottom line is that I am not able to practice basketball. The coach will conclude that since I didn’t do so much as get ready to play, I never really wanted to be on his team in the first place.

So when I first accept Jesus into my heart, my lifestyle instantly changes. I show God that I want to be one of His sons by obeying His commandments and doing good works. I practice righteousness. But even if I don’t do the right thing every single time, God will always forgive me because I am still practicing righteousness, not sin. And when I do sin, I don’t just say “oh well, God’s grace’ll get me out of this one; I’m good.” No, I will definitely confess my sins to God and repent from my wrongdoing. But even if, for whatever reason, I do not immediately or directly confess a particular sin I’ve just committed, it’s not like God is going to hold that against me or anything. Because I have given my life over to Jesus, He has already forgiven all of my sins – past, present and future. Again, He knows by name and will not let me go no matter what (Jeremiah 1:5; Romans 8:38-39).

To summarize my views on this topic, I will paraphrase a thoughtful quote from the pastor of my church, “Christians don’t have to be sinless; they should simply sin less.” Faith produces works, not the other way around. Both are necessary for salvation, yes, but true belief will always include good deeds.

This is somewhat off topic, but I think what’s hindering us from coming to a consensus is the fact that our presuppositions when it comes to the definition of ‘sin’ are inconsistent. You seem to believe in different levels of sins, while I believe that all sins are essentially ‘equal’ in God’s eyes. I can totally understand why one would not be absolutely certain of their salvation based on their understanding of the difference between venial and mortal sins. I respect your point of view, Carlan, but I would like to remind you that if you’ve committed one sin, it is the same as committing them all (James 2:10). So is there really any difference between a venial sin and a mortal sin?

You make some excellent and well biblically balanced points; except for one. Works are not a necessity for salvation; the will be a result of that salvation, but some turn from tares to wheat before they produce an ounce of good works.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Thanks for a very good post TS. There is a very big dif between venial and deadly Mortal sin. venial example, indifference toward God,putting other things before God, sports or hobbies and such ,tempting God, you get the picture.Those would be considered venial. Example of Mortal Sin, Artificial birth control, abortion, vasectomy,murder, despair of God’s Mercy, Presumption (committing a mortal sin with the idea you can just go to confession), all are just few examples. In the Catholic liturgy of the Mass.all venial sin is repented of and forgiven by God, Mortal sin must be repented of and forgiven by God in Sacramental confession and forgiveness and absolution given by the Priest who acts Persona Christi, in the person of Christ, per Holy Orders ,same as an Apostle,such sin is serious business, Hopes this helps clear up the difference. God bless and Peace to you, Carlan

God makes no distinction on sin; that is Catholic.

 

[Masters_Servant]

1. I take this to mean that you believe all christians will see death, even at the second coming?
2. I take it you agree with me then, that salvation can not be assured. Since that falls out of the 2 things you believe anyone can be assured by.
3. If you would like to debate the word Truth, the value of the bible and it’s worth, and support your naked assertions that go on from there, please start a thread in apologetics so we can discuss them. I never mentioned the bible, it’s worth or otherwise.
   4)which of my comments were “silly”? This is a subjective comment. I am more than willing to discuss objective things with you. I am still unaware of your objections to my post since you have not dealt with them directly, or even indirectly. Ad hom does not refute anything.

How is this any kind of proof? Bible=Israel existing
How about this? The Shoah= God ignoring his people’s plight?
Neither work for obvious reasons.

Again, you may have a point if Egypt no longer existed, but as it stands you have no point. You are basically drawing conclusions that fit your preconcived ideas/beliefs.

Whatever does this have to do with my post? Threats of hell are not making the elephant in the room dissapear. I would appreciate it if you could refute the points I made in my post or stop addressing me or my post. I am willing and able to stand by what I say. And, change my position if given more credible information. Can you?

.

The hell card was already used once here by you, does it get more believable with repetition? I thought protestants were against vain repetition? Unless you feel it’s God’s will to needlessly repeat yourself in the course of one post.

There you go tossing the word fact around as if it is “fact” merely because you or your interpretation of the bible is telling you that it is.

What can be “greater judgment” than eternal hell? What? I am well aware of the doctrine. You make it sound as if I am at risk for some greater fate than I currently would have if I died today. I’m not even sure you realize you are limiting God to act in any way he pleases should he decide to. Who would you be to question him if he did?

Hi Strawberry,

Nice to finally here directly from you; you have an advocate in AnnaScott; hopefully she will now see the true spitiual journey you are on.

I have one question for you. Does absolute truth exist or not? Then we can move forward. By the way, on Egypt, God had something to say and it is they would contimue to exist, but never be the dominate power it once was…is this what we have observed? Yes, why? Because God is truth and what He says always comes to pass just as He says.

He say s the “natural man” cannot understand the things of God; therfore we can argue any point till we are both blue in the face and unless god turns your hardened heart into one of flesh, which only He can do, then no amount of logic nor reasoning will make a bit of difference whether your are agnostic, atheist, Muslim or whatever non-believing type one happens to be. Uour calling as Christinas are to present onr the truth that we are all sinners and fall short of the standard, moral standard the creator has set. But because of sin, we cannot meet that standard; but Gid in His love died so that whosoever believes on the Name of the Lord Jesus shall escape the wrath and judgment ot come; those who reject the only way to god, which is Jesus, will die in their sin.

This is simply being eternally separated from the God you did not care to know anyway.

 

[Masters_Servant]

You found him: Masters Servant.

I hope you don’t mind what I said about you in my response (quoted below) to Masters Servant.

I really hate it, when the threat of Hell is used as a tool to proselytize.

Your friend in Christ,
Anna

Anna,

Please do not apologize for me; obviously Strawberry is quite capable of speaking on his/her own behalf. There is a good reason why God said, the “fear” of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, of understanding and other such things. You believe you gain trust and help someone along a “fruitful” path by “sugar-coating”, which is withholding the truth. Only God can convert the soul and change the heart; I can no more discourage Straberry’s path to God, than you can lead him/her there. Our calling as Christians is to give the entire truth; most people cannot handle the truth, but that is not our issue, we are to tell the truth and the Holy Spirit will do what god has already purposed.

Mt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In the fear of the LORD there is strong confidence, And his children will have refuge

The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, That one may avoid the snares of death.

The fear of the LORD is the instruction for wisdom

The fear of the LORD {leads} to life

But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do {His commandments;} His praise endures forever.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

***"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! ***