Do we know if someone is going to hell or not?

[Fludgecow101]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

 

[Mike_Dye]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

We know that Satin and the other fallen angels are in Hell, other than that we simply don’t know. Why don’t you as a Catholic remove yourself from your present situation and go to a Catholic High School?

 

[Tietjen]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

No, we cannot know who is in hell nor who will be going to hell. When human beings stand before God to be judged, their individual hearts are looked at. Only God can read a man’s heart. We can look and see the actions of the person and we can even say, “that was an evil act” or “that was a merciful act” but we cannot know the motivations, the intentions, or the ultimate expectations which helped shaped the reason behind the action. Nor can we fairly judge whether or not the human being understood whether his/her actions were evil or not. If we cannot look at and see a man’s heart we cannot say with certainty that he is in hell. Rather what we need to focus on is our own final destination and leave it to God to decide the fate of His creations.

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

**Ask them if you might probe the holes from the nails in their hands with your fingers, or place your hand into the lance wound in their side. When they ask what you are talking about, say that only the One with these distinctive marks gets to make that pronouncement.

We simply do not know who is in Hell or not. God sees the heart, knows its depths. He knows how many behaviors that are objectively sinful are driven by compulsions that mitigate most, if not all of the subjective guilt imputed. I counseled teenage prostitutes for seven years in Times Square NY in the 1980’s. I never met one whom I thought deserving of Hell, despite some pretty horrendous behaviors. They were, to a person, raped and abused as children.

These poor folks who are so certain of who ends up where are at greatest risk of ending in Hell themselves, from lack of charity. Thankfully, God’s love and mercy are limitless. Pray for these poor folks. Witness your faith without fear. Focus them on God’s mercy and forgiveness.

Peace**

 

[CalCatholic]

To place ourselves in the role of ‘judge’ and proclaim to know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell is idolatry. Only God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ know this. That is what I would tell them.

 

[PJM]

=Fludgecow101;5675476]I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

*Thanks for asking:

Mt. 7: 1 1"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"*

Lk. 6: 37"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; "

Psalm 82: 8"Arise, O God, judge the earth; for to thee belong all the nations!"

Eze. 3: 3 Now the end is upon you, and I will let loose my anger upon you, and will judge you according to your ways; and I will punish you for all your abominations.And my eye will not spare you, nor will I have pity; but I will punish you for your ways, while your abominations are in your midst. Then you will know that I am the LORD."

Isaiah 22: 22 “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our ruler, the LORD is our king; he will save us”.

Hope you find this sufficient?

Love and prayers,

 

[cheeto1]

How do we argue for it using the Bible

Romans 10:6-7

Are you going to a Baptist high school because your local Catholic school is
anti-Catholic also?

 

[losh14]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic.

Stay strong, my sibling in Christ and fellow Catholic.
My family in Florida have all left their Catholic faith behind and embraced Baptism or Lutheranism, such is the prevalence of these faiths. Florida is an equatorial Bible Belt.

Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now.

Bernie Carbo is a fifth-rate evangelist and a master of Religious Cheeze:

From his website (which has a photo from probably 1973):
“the true home run is hit when we share the incredible story of Jesus Christ with those who are lost and dying. Now they too can have eternal life.”

C’mon, the dude’s claim to fame is pinch-hitting in the World Series and being Minor League Player of the Year 40 years ago. Put him in a room with a serious student of theology (ie Scott Hahn or a Doctor of Divine Science) and he’ll resort to screaming about the same twenty Bible passages that trace this very basic outline of faith.

I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven.

Could it be 1 Jn 3:10?
“This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”

Seems simple, but it’s not simple enough for us to be the Judge. What about the person who does right one minute and wrong the next? Whose child are they?

Or is 1 Jn 3:21-23?
“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.”

Again, seems simple, but the entirety of the Bible is not these three verses.
The Catholic perspective takes the idea of belief in Christ as not mere mental assent, but rather a belief that requires action in accordance with it. You can’t just nod your head “Oh, yeah, Jesus was the Son of God, blah blah blah” but rather you must live the redemption you’ve been given.

Bear in mind how many times in the Gospels Jesus asks us to do something in accordance with our belief in Him.

This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

The problem with Scriptural absolutes is that they have to be tempered within light of the rest of Scripture. As many times as Scripture says you will be judged by your deeds, it also commands to be merciful so that mercy will be shown, and to forgive so that forgiveness will be shown.

From that perspective, we cannot think of God as saying to us “Well, you had faith your whole life, and you were kind to everyone … EXCEPT YOU WERE MEAN TO GREGORY BROWN, and for THAT, I send you to HELL!”

That’s an impossible burden to overcome, and it makes God sound capricious. Suffice to say, we will be judged on the content of our lives, on how well we attempted to follow the Lord and keep His commands (this obedience is the underlying theme of 1 John, by the way).

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

Correct, with the exception that we do examine and “judge” ourselves in order to present ourselves to the Lord, seek Reconciliation to Him, and change that in our lives which is not in line with Christian living.

Keep strong, Fludgecow. Remember that your Bible teacher is teaching you the Baptist understanding of Scripture, and while we agree on much, there is much disagreement. Consider their theology a competing and inferior theory to Catholicism, but learn enough of it that you can understand its weaknesses and see the strengths of Catholicism within that light.

 

[garysibio]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

You don’t know if a particular person is in Hell unless you are God.

Having said that I just remembered Bl. Anna Marie Taigi who, it is said, was followed by a golden orb through which God revealed many things to her including the eternal destiny of certain people. I believe the children at Fatima were told that one person was in Heaven.

 

[Mark77]

**Do not let the Baptists bully you with their skewed interpretations of Sacred Scripture!

There is absolutely no way we can tell who is in Heaven or Hell because that is God’s call. **

What if i am a horrible abortionist who has personally murdered 50,000 babies, but then i see the Truth and repent and ask for forgiveness ( ideally through the Sacrament of Confession which Baptists don’t believe in), for all of my sins on my deathbed.

This is just another example of erroneous interpretations, in this case confusing “mortal sins” with who is in Hell!

A good resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (scborromeo.org/ccc.htm );

“Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.”(CCC 1859).

“Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation. At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.” (CCC 1022).

i would recommend you find some resources either on CA (catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp) or elsewhere (books, etc) authored by former Baptists who converted to Catholicism, especially former Baptist ministers.

T**he Coming Home Network (chnetwork.org/) started by Marcus Grodi, a former Presbyterian minister, has conversion stories and resources (here’s a former baptist’s story chnetwork.org/Conversionstories/garyhoge.html) that should help you!
**
You are in my prayers, stay strong!

**You will not have all the answers, but neither do they. You can find the correct answers, the Truth of Jesus Christ as taught by His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

None of their arguments are new, and most of them are incorrect. You will learn a great deal and witness to them in a loving and positive manner. Hopefully you can find several other Catholics at your HS or nearby to help bolster your Faith!!!**

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (MT 16:18-19)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Fludgecow101]

Thanks for all the help guys.It really helped.

Also the Catholic high schools around here are more messed up unfortunately (and especially some old friends that go to them now). My brother graduated from this school in 08 well known for having heated debates in bible class though (and almost converted two friends to Catholicism, which though was delayed by their anticatholic parents and then college life.) But I do understand what ya’ll mean by trying to be in a Catholic school.

 

[losh14]

But I do understand what ya’ll mean by trying to be in a Catholic school.

Not sure which is tougher for a Catholic, going to a non-Catholic school or going to a public school.

 

[Orchanian]

Two scriptures come to mind when I hear people commenting about where someone’s eternal soul has rested. The first, John 21:21, is when Peter asked Jesus, “What about him?” (meaning John) Jesus said, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.” Jesus’ point is that we are to worry about OUR eternal soul - our life, not that of another person.

The second passage that speaks to me is the crucifixion and the “good thief.” We don’t know the specific crime(s) he committed, but we do know that at one point he ridiculed Jesus on the cross (see Matthew’s account). But at the end, he asked for mercy from Christ, and Christ said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” This man repented on the day of his death and was promised heaven. Surely the people watching the death of these three men would have assumed that the thief (and all three) were bound for Gahenna/Hell. But we know they were wrong. So, too, are those who, out of spiritual pride, think they know the final destination for someone’s soul. We can (and should) always pray that even the worst sinners convert before they pass from this world.

One last thought - Jesus told a parable (it’s in Matthew, not sure where) about two sons who were told to go work in the field. One said he would but didn’t. The other said he wouldn’t but actually did. Who obeyed the father, Jesus asks. We can talk a lot about how much we love God, but if we don’t have the love of God shining through in our lives - in every encounter we have with others (no matter how bad a sinner), then we don’t really have the love of God. Arrogance and pride are terrible motivators - they are some of the devil’s most powerful weapons.

 

[fultonfish]

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen was an amazing speaker and writer. You can watch and listen to some of his recorded television broadcasts on EWTN and also purchase them.

He said that when he got to heaven, there would be three surprises: 1) that people he expected to see there, were not there; 2) that some people he never expected to see there, were there; and 3) that he is there.

 

[Zooey]

To place ourselves in the role of ‘judge’ and proclaim to know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell is idolatry. Only God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ know this. That is what I would tell them.

 

[Beachcomber]

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen was an amazing speaker and writer. You can watch and listen to some of his recorded television broadcasts on EWTN and also purchase them.

He said that when he got to heaven, there would be three surprises: 1) that people he expected to see there, were not there; 2) that some people he never expected to see there, were there; and 3) that he is there.

What a wonderful quote. Thanks for positng that.

Also, didn’t Pope John Paul 2 say something along the lines that it is entirely possible that hell is empty? The idea being that we cannot know for sure who’s condemned and who isn’t (that’s not our job!) You can some good guesstimates of who might be there, but no one is sure.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I go to a Baptist high school which is pretty anti-Catholic. Bernie Carbo visited us last week and during his talk he was saying how all these different people were in Hell now. I asked my bible teacher during class later on about it and he gave me some verse (I think in like 1 John) to look at to sho that we can know if someone is in Hell or Heaven. This was last week so I don’t really remember but I do remember myself thinking about how it was like out of context or something.

Now, as Catholics, we believe in leaving the judging to God. How do we argue for it and especially using the Bible (because otherwise, they don’t listen.)

We do not know this.​

BTW - Calvin (a respected name among Baptists) is strongly against saying that we can know this. To use the doctrine of predestination to say that others are going to Hell is what he calls imprecation, not preaching (which is its proper use). So ***if ***they are Calvinists in their theology, he witnesses against that idea.

Conversion to Christ may come very late in a life - for men live, and die in very different circumstances, so that some are converted to Christ only at their last gasp. God sees their conversion - He has caused it all. Men OTOH may know nothing of it. Yet it has occurred. So what men say of the dead man, may be far astray from the truth. So he may be in Heaven, when men on earth have no doubt he is in Hell.

Many martyrs have been converted at the last moment - St. Adauctus was converted so late, that though he suffered with others, his very name is unknown - except to God. “Adauctus” means “added on” - he was watching martyrs die, was converted, confessed Christ, & was added to their number. Before his conversion, many Christians might well have thought he was damned for his lack of faith.

St.Moses the Black, hermit & martyr, was formerly a robber. Not likely (his victims might well think) to be a Christian, or a martyr, or a Saint. But he is all three.

And there is Saul of Tarsus - IOW, St. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles.

God converts whom, and in the way, & at the time, & for the reasons, that He wishes. Onlookers need know nothing of His action in a human heart - but He knows it. What those others think, could not matter less. We cannot know - even about ourselves - whether we shall fall or stand; those who stand cannot pride themselves that they do, and that others do not: for if they boast that they stand, who knows how low God may bring them ? If we do not know that we shall not fall - how can we say that others have fallen or are damned ? God has kept many things to Himself, & not made them known - so how can they be known ? Since He shows His goodness through His Saints, & “approves [them] by many mighty works”, we are not left in ignorance about them - so their presence with Him, is not unknown to us.

We are thus ignorant of whether:

• someone is going to Hell
• someone is damned

AFAIK, the most we can be sure of - not with absolute certainty, but with moral certainty - is that in someone’s behaviour is embodied something damnable, something that if continued in will damn them; which if it is in us, & if we continue in it, will damn us. Hell is not about other people - Hell is about each individual, and the beginnings of Hell that are in that individual.

Who is Bernie Carbo ?

 

[Fludgecow101]

We do not know this.​

BTW - Calvin (a respected name among Baptists) is strongly against saying that we can know this. To use the doctrine of predestination to say that others are going to Hell is what he calls imprecation, not preaching (which is its proper use). So ***if ***they are Calvinists in their theology, he witnesses against that idea.

Conversion to Christ may come very late in a life - for men live, and die in very different circumstances, so that some are converted to Christ only at their last gasp. God sees their conversion - He has caused it all. Men OTOH may know nothing of it. Yet it has occurred. So what men say of the man, may be far astray from the truth. So he may be in Heaven, when men on earth have no doubt he is in Hell.

Many martyrs have been converted at the last moment - St. Adauctus was converted so late, that though he suffered with others, his very name is unknown - except to God. “Adauctus” means “added on” - he was watching martyrs die, was converted, confessed Christ, & was added to their number. Before his conversion, many Christians might well have thought he was damned for his lack of faith.

St.Moses the Black, hermit & martyr, was formerly a robber. Not likely (his victims might well think) to be a Christian, or a martyr, or a Saint. But he is all three.

And there is Saul of Tarsus - IOW, St. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles.

God converts whom, and in the way, & at the time, & for the reasons, that He wishes. Onlookers need know nothing of His action in a human heart - but He knows it. What those others think, could not matter less. We cannot know - even about ourselves - whether we shall fall or stand; those who stand cannot pride themselves that they do, and that others do not: for if they boast that they stand, who knows how low God may bring them ? If we do not know that we shall not fall - how can we say that others have fallen or are damned ? God has kept many things to Himself, & not made them known - so how can they be known ? Since He shows His goodness through His Saints, & “approves [them] by many mighty works”, we are not left in ignorance about them - so their presence with Him, is not unknown to us.

We are thus ignorant of whether:

• someone is going to Hell
• someone is damned

AFAIK, the most we can be sure of - not with absolute certainty, but with moral certainty - is that in someone’s behaviour is embodied something damnable, something that if continued in will damn them; which if it is in us, & if we continue in it, will damn us. Hell is not about other people - Hell is about each individual, and the beginnings of Hell that are in that individual.

Who is Bernie Carbo ?

You make a good point about the converted saints, especially St. Paul.

Bernie Carbo is a baseball player who hit a homerun win for the Red Sox in the world series some time ago. After and alcohol abuse his career was destroyed and he converted later on. Now he preaches and I kinda have to admit, he’s a Jesus freak. I think he scares people away from Christianity by screaming and shoving Jesus in their face.

 

[fultonfish]

One remarkable conversion was St. Dismas. “The Good Thief”.

Some people have even suggested that Dismas was very cynical and a sociopath and figured what the heck he had nothing to lose.

Nevertheless, regardless of his motive, Dismas “made it” … and we were all “clued in” to the fact that Dismas made it by Jesus, the Judge, Himself.

To make things even more “confusing”, Jesus chose Dismas as the first person to enter Heaven.

The only words I want to hear are “This day you will be with Me in Paradise”

We should pray that each of has a few seconds at our deaths to beg God’s forgiveness for our sins and for us to join with Jesus in His Kingdom.