Do we need a "Five Points" list for this forum?

[PrayforMallory]

When looking at the five points of the Holy Father’s ultimatum to the SSPX, I thought that maybe those of us who post on this forum could also use this sort of guideline for honest, supportive dialogue. Maybe we could use our own set of “five points” to aid in our discussions. Here are some suggestions:

1. A commitment to avoid these tired discussions of “Traditional Catholics,” and instead for once discuss Traditional Catholicism.
2. A commitment to ignore all ad hominem attacks or attempts at preachy polemics.
3. A commitment to avoid judging other posters during the discussions.
4. A commitment to acknowledge all documents of the Magisterium, as well as all the writings of established Catholic scholars and clergy.
5. A commitment to narrow arguments down into concrete thesis statements that aren’t easily derailed by incidental comments.

Just some suggestions. This is what I’m going to stick to. I hope I can follow this in the course of future debates.

Any comments?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

It would be helpful to have a concise definition of “Traditional Catholicism”. As used in this forum it seems to range from an appreciation for the TLM to an absolute rejection of the NO.

I had expected this forum to also include information or discussions about many traditional practices of Catholics and the Tradition of the Church.

 

[PrayforMallory]

It would be helpful to have a concise definition of “Traditional Catholicism”. As used in this forum it seems to range from an appreciation for the TLM to an absolute rejection of the NO.

I had expected this forum to also include information or discussions about many traditional practices of Catholics and the Tradition of the Church.

I would define Traditional Catholicism in this context as the liturgical, theological, and doctrinal stances exemplified by the Classical Roman Mass.

I would include under this umbrella the following:

1. Discourse that is centered on the controversies surrounding the Second Vatican Council.
2. A comparative approach regarding the Tridentine and Pauline Masses.
3. Interest in the Traditional Orders and clergy.
4. Other cultural practices such as processions, relics, statuary, and holy cards prized by people commonly referred to as “Traditional Catholics.”

Of course, this is just my slant on the whole thing.

 

[Spiller]

When looking at the five points of the Holy Father’s ultimatum to the SSPX, I thought that maybe those of us who post on this forum could also use this sort of guideline for honest, supportive dialogue. Maybe we could use our own set of “five points” to aid in our discussions. Here are some suggestions:

1. A commitment to avoid these tired discussions of “Traditional Catholics,” and instead for once discuss Traditional Catholicism.
2. A commitment to ignore all ad hominem attacks or attempts at preachy polemics.
3. A commitment to avoid judging other posters during the discussions.
4. A commitment to acknowledge all documents of the Magisterium, as well as all the writings of established Catholic scholars and clergy.
5. A commitment to narrow arguments down into concrete thesis statements that aren’t easily derailed by incidental comments.

Just some suggestions. This is what I’m going to stick to. I hope I can follow this in the course of future debates.

Any comments?

1. Possibly traditionally-minded Catholicism. “Traditionalism” is NOT a separate rite.

2.) That’s axiomatic.

3.) That’s axiomatic.

4.) No way. Some writings of “the writings of established Catholic scholars and clergy” are heretical and contravene actual Church documents.

5.) That’s axiomatic.

 

[Spiller]

I would define Traditional Catholicism in this context as the liturgical, theological, and doctrinal stances exemplified by the Classical Roman Mass.

There is no such thing as “Traditional Catholicism.” You’re talking about it as if it is it’s own rite within the Church. It’s not. Nor does the EF somehow define the position of traditionally-minded Catholics.

 

[Spiller]

It would be helpful to have a concise definition of “Traditional Catholicism”. As used in this forum it seems to range from an appreciation for the TLM to an absolute rejection of the NO.

I had expected this forum to also include information or discussions about many traditional practices of Catholics and the Tradition of the Church.

I don’t think it’s universally definable.

I have never seen anything close to a good definition here.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I don’t think it’s universally definable.

I have never seen anything close to a good definition here.

It’s not universally definable. I was setting specific parameters for the sake of constructive discussion. If you want to suggest new parameters, please do so.

 

[PrayforMallory]

1. Possibly traditionally-minded Catholicism. “Traditionalism” is NOT a separate rite.

Who said anything about a different rite? I’m talking about a hermeneutic here.

2.) That’s axiomatic.

Then why isn’t it followed? Why are people chastised and accused of impiety, on both sides?

3.) That’s axiomatic.

See above.

4.) No way. Some writings of “the writings of established Catholic scholars and clergy” are heretical and contravene actual Church documents.

I wasn’t suggesting we tolerate heretical scholarship, but rather have honest discussions about ideas within the umbrella of the Church.

5.) That’s axiomatic.

Then there should be no problem agreeing with it.

 

[PrayforMallory]

There is no such thing as “Traditional Catholicism.” You’re talking about it as if it is it’s own rite within the Church. It’s not. Nor does the EF somehow define the position of traditionally-minded Catholics.

If you want a new definition please supply one.

 

[cothrige]

Well, there you are. How many posts did it take for one of the usual suspects to derail this thread arguing that there is no such thing as a tradition, that nobody can define what a tradition is, or that traditional actually means the rejection of traditions? I guess my desire for smaller government, fiscal responsibility, lower taxes and moral government makes me a progressive liberal?

Perhaps we could start a Charismatic Catholicism forum and then go there and argue that there is no such separate rite, that there is no such thing as a charismatic, nobody knows or can decide what a charism is, or that charismatic is actually the label for those Catholics who do not believe in charisms. I could go there and proudly start thread after thread about this, and turn any other thread into a diatribe about how I am actually a charismatic Catholic. Won’t that be fun and informative?

 

[Dempsey1919]

There should be more structure to this forum. By this, I mean that we should have some clear rules and guidelines concerning the sorts of topics we can discuss, for example, there should be a rule in place preventing anyone from slandering the Holy Father.

I think the current ban on sedevacantism is great and I would also like to see rules set in place that would prevent anyone from using this forum to promote beliefs that could be damaging to the faith of others. By this I mean that there should be limits set to prevent people from promoting schismatic and dissenting views which would cause others to doubt their faith or the Church. This forum should be used to educate others, not to damage their faith.

We need to discuss the issues fairly and honestly with an open mind, while reminding ourselves to be charitable at all times.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I would define Traditional Catholicism in this context as the liturgical, theological, and doctrinal stances exemplified by the Classical Roman Mass.
In orthodox theology there may be a difference in emphasis but doctrine hasn’t changed. Could you give some examples other than that the EF speaks more explicitly about sacrifice?

I would include under this umbrella the following:

1. Discourse that is centered on the controversies surrounding the Second Vatican Council.
2. A comparative approach regarding the Tridentine and Pauline Masses.
   Without calling either one ‘objectively superior’, please.
3. Interest in the Traditional Orders and clergy.
   By this do you mean religious orders who wear some kind of habit and are faithful to church authority and doctrine? Or do you only mean those who use the EF?
4. Other cultural practices such as processions, relics, statuary, and holy cards prized by people commonly referred to as “Traditional Catholics.”
   Even I’ve been called traditional by liberals

Of course, this is just my slant on the whole thing.

 

[rwoehmke]

From what I can tell the only difference between myself and a “Traditionalist” is that I have no problems with EHMCs, altar girls, communion in the hand, and the use of the vernacular. Latin and the EF are ok, but not the only language or only form of the Mass. No differences on doctrine and teaching, pius devotions, holy cards, etc. I recognize that Vatican II was an ecumenical council and understand that there are some who totally misunderstand it on both ends of the spectrum of orthodoxy.

It has seemed to me that most of the haggling in this forum ends up being over things like altar girls, mantillas, and such stuff, which I consider a shame as we miss out on discussing more serious topics. I suppose though that is the subject of some of the other fora. Aside from the fact that the English translation for the OF is aimed at about the third grade level I have a difficult time seeing one form being superior to the other. It seems like the folks in the pews are not expected to understand any words with more than two syllables or a sentence that goes much beyond subject verb. .

 

[Dempsey1919]

Could you give some examples other than that the EF speaks more explicitly about sacrifice?

Here are a few examples in given in Latin with the English translation. All of these prayers are taken from the Baronius Press 1962 Missal:

Suscipe, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indignus famulus tuus offero tibi Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis, et offensionibus, et negligentiis meis, et pro omnibus circumstantibus, sed et pro omnibus fidelibus christianis vivis atque defunctis: ut mihi et illis proficiat ad salutem in vivam aeternam. Amen

Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this unspotted host, which I, thine unworthy servant, offer to Thee, my living and true God, for mine inumerable sins, offences, and negligences, and for all her present: as also for all faithful Christians, both living and dead; that it may be of avail for salvation both to me and to them unto life everlasting. Amen

I know that the above prayer does not explicitly mention the word “sacrifice” but I decided to include it because of it’s beauty. It is one of my favourite prayer.

In spiritu humilitatis, et in animo contrito suscipiamur a te, Domine: et sic fiat sacrificum nostrum in conspectu tuo hodie, ut placeat tibi, Domine Deus.

Accept us, O Lord, in the spirit of humility and contrition of heart, and grant that the sacrifice which we offer this day in Thy sight may be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.

Veni Sanctificator omnipotens, aeterne Deus: et benedic hoc sacrificum tuo sancto nomini praeparatum.

Come, O almighty and eternal God, the Sanctifier, and bless this Sacrifice, prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name.

These are just some examples. There are many more.