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smswife
Guest
Just wondering, b/c a lot of threads in this forum are about music, and it might be nice to have a sub-forum for it.
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Lepanto
Guest
I think there would be much less debate if people actually read what the Church herself has said about what constitutes liturgical music instead of everyone giving their preferences and opinions. We could start with Musicam Sacram:
adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html
For example, the Church clearly has a preference for Gregorian Chant (the Church’s own treasure) over folk music like “Lord of the Dance.”
When was the last time you heard Gregorian Chant at Mass?
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CatholicZ09
Guest
That would be nice to hear again.I think there would be much less debate if people actually read what the Church herself has said about what constitutes liturgical music instead of everyone giving their preferences and opinions. We could start with Musicam Sacram:
adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html
For example, the Church clearly has a preference for Gregorian Chant (the Church’s own treasure) over folk music like “Lord of the Dance.”
When was the last time you heard Gregorian Chant at Mass?
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ibkc
Guest
And then, the next step would be to actually accept what these documents say, and not make excuses for ignoring them. As in, “Yes, the Church has a clear preference for the types of music we are to be using, but my bishop hasn’t ever said ‘Lord of the Dance’ and ‘On Eagles’ Wings’ are prohibited so that makes them OK!”
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CatholicZ09
Guest
So, if these rules one day will have to be mandatory to follow, would we go back to more traditional sacred music and get rid of this contemporary stuff?
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ibkc
Guest
I don’t think contemporary liturgical music is a problem if it follows the guidelines of the Church. There are people out there producing good-quality Catholic liturgical music. Benedictgal has posted numerous examples over the past couple of years. The problem is that what many parishes insist on using bad and banal, if not outright heretical music.
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CatholicZ09
Guest
How can you determine if a song is heretical or not?
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ibkc
Guest
IMO, overtly Protestant lyrics are heretical and should not be used in mass. Just my opinion.
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japhy
Guest
“I myself am the bread of life. You and I are the bread of life.” No, that’s not what the Church teaches.
And what does “A living sign of God in Christ” mean?!
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smswife
Guest
A very interesting discussion, but no one has addressed my question.
Does this forum need a sub-forum for liturgical music?
Does this forum need a sub-forum for liturgical music?
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Lepanto
Guest
They already are mandatory.
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baltobetsy
Guest
I don’t think we need that degree of specialization in the forums. Music fits nicely into liturgy; to give it a forum of its own might leave a lot of people out of discussions they might otherwise join, because they don’t think of themselves as having enough of an interest in music to open that sub-forum regularly.
Betsy
I don’t really think so. I think the current large number of music threads is a bit of an aberration.
The one thing about music I do sometimes wonder about is which is the appropriate folder to discuss Catholic music for devotional but non-Liturgical settings. (Many of the older “contemporary” Catholic songs were composed more with the mindset of being devotional than liturgical.) I know that contemporary music is discussed in the Popular Media forum but the kind of music I’m thinking about isn’t usually released on high quality recordings.
I guess the Spirituality forum would be a logical place. I don’t visit that forum enough to know if the topic comes up.
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Digitonomy
Guest
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ac_claire
Guest
I vote no. I think it could compartmentalize things too much and stunt the flow of discussion.
This subforum is called Liturgy and Sacraments; music is an integral part of the Liturgy so these discussions belong here. Anyhow, why fix something that ain’t broke?
This subforum is called Liturgy and Sacraments; music is an integral part of the Liturgy so these discussions belong here. Anyhow, why fix something that ain’t broke?
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benedictgal
Guest
Believe it or not, the popes have given us standards, but, sadly, they have been ignored:
From Sacramentum Caritatis:
Pope John Paul II, in his Chirograph on Sacred Music, observed that:
If composers were to read these documents, that would be a good starting point. If people selecting music for the Mass would read these documents, it would clear up a lot of the ambiguities.
Folks who select the music at Mass should learn to think for themselves and not let the publishing houses dictate what they should be using week in and week out.
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Cat
Guest
I personally think that music should not be discussed on the forums at all, and I think that all music topics should be banned.
Our bishops should be respected, and when they allow something, even if we feel that they are misinterpreting the various documents, we should accept the possibility that perhaps it is WE who are misinterpreting the documents.
The bishops have the charism of apostleship, while we do not. We do not have the education, parish experience, Vatican training, and wisdom that a bishop has, not to mention the shepherd’s loving heart for his flock. For us to judge a bishop as “wrong” or “disobedient” is presumptuous.
This kind of thinking–that “I’m right and the bishop is wrong”–leads to disrespect of the bishops and the Catholic Church in general, a bitter attitude towards the bishops who have strayed from the “truth,” a lack of joy in any Mass that does not “measure up,” a disdain for the tastes of others, a feeling of superiority and greater spirituality than others, and for many people, attrition from the Catholic Church when they finally decide that Catholic clergy are ineffectual and apostate.
I think that Catholic Answers Forums allows too much dissension from the bishop’s teachings. I think that the moderators and apologists should step in more often and try to steer the conversation back to a more loving and comprehensive point of view. I don’t think that the moderators and apologists should allow a few people to present their interpretation of the various documents as “fact.”
As an ex-Protestant, I have seen all too often how “documents” can be twisted to mean almost anything you want them to mean. It is frightening when people on this forum quote various documents and claim that their personal interpretation is more correct than the interpretation practiced by the ordained apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
As an example of what I mean–many times, the documents is quoted in which Pope Benedict XVI says that *“Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided.” *
This quote does NOT state that any specific genre of music is inappropriate for Mass, or that any specific genre of music fails to respect the meaning of the liturgy." The quote is very general, not specific at all–in his wisdom, the Pope avoids making a specific statement. Yet people on this forum extrapolate certain “facts” out of this quote and other quotes, and then accuse those of us who disagree with them of ignoring the Holy Father and propagating our own “Protestant” bias.
I realize I am using just one isolated quote. I am only doing this in the interest of space and time. And frankly, that’s what some people on this forum do–extract a paragraph or two out of context and extrapolate a sweeping statement about genres of music, instruments, poetry, etc. that condemns almost all music that most Catholic Churches in the U.S. use in Mass.
At the same time that the music is condemned, the smug implication is that the BISHOPS of these various dioceses are “disobedient to the Pope” and “lacking in their devotion to the truth of Catholic teaching” for allowing these “inappropriate” songs and musical styles and genres and instruments in Mass.
No WONDER Catholics leave the Church–when their fellow “educated” Catholics dis the Bishop, those who are weak agree and see no reason to stay and submit themselves to the leading of the disobedient mere man who can’t even get it right when it comes to music.
I vote “no separate forum” and “a ban on all musical topics.” Music has split more Protestant churches in modern times than any other subject. We should learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters and turn away from conflicts about music and TRUST OUR BISHOPS to take care of us.
Our bishops should be respected, and when they allow something, even if we feel that they are misinterpreting the various documents, we should accept the possibility that perhaps it is WE who are misinterpreting the documents.
The bishops have the charism of apostleship, while we do not. We do not have the education, parish experience, Vatican training, and wisdom that a bishop has, not to mention the shepherd’s loving heart for his flock. For us to judge a bishop as “wrong” or “disobedient” is presumptuous.
This kind of thinking–that “I’m right and the bishop is wrong”–leads to disrespect of the bishops and the Catholic Church in general, a bitter attitude towards the bishops who have strayed from the “truth,” a lack of joy in any Mass that does not “measure up,” a disdain for the tastes of others, a feeling of superiority and greater spirituality than others, and for many people, attrition from the Catholic Church when they finally decide that Catholic clergy are ineffectual and apostate.
I think that Catholic Answers Forums allows too much dissension from the bishop’s teachings. I think that the moderators and apologists should step in more often and try to steer the conversation back to a more loving and comprehensive point of view. I don’t think that the moderators and apologists should allow a few people to present their interpretation of the various documents as “fact.”
As an ex-Protestant, I have seen all too often how “documents” can be twisted to mean almost anything you want them to mean. It is frightening when people on this forum quote various documents and claim that their personal interpretation is more correct than the interpretation practiced by the ordained apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
As an example of what I mean–many times, the documents is quoted in which Pope Benedict XVI says that *“Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided.” *
This quote does NOT state that any specific genre of music is inappropriate for Mass, or that any specific genre of music fails to respect the meaning of the liturgy." The quote is very general, not specific at all–in his wisdom, the Pope avoids making a specific statement. Yet people on this forum extrapolate certain “facts” out of this quote and other quotes, and then accuse those of us who disagree with them of ignoring the Holy Father and propagating our own “Protestant” bias.
I realize I am using just one isolated quote. I am only doing this in the interest of space and time. And frankly, that’s what some people on this forum do–extract a paragraph or two out of context and extrapolate a sweeping statement about genres of music, instruments, poetry, etc. that condemns almost all music that most Catholic Churches in the U.S. use in Mass.
At the same time that the music is condemned, the smug implication is that the BISHOPS of these various dioceses are “disobedient to the Pope” and “lacking in their devotion to the truth of Catholic teaching” for allowing these “inappropriate” songs and musical styles and genres and instruments in Mass.
No WONDER Catholics leave the Church–when their fellow “educated” Catholics dis the Bishop, those who are weak agree and see no reason to stay and submit themselves to the leading of the disobedient mere man who can’t even get it right when it comes to music.
I vote “no separate forum” and “a ban on all musical topics.” Music has split more Protestant churches in modern times than any other subject. We should learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters and turn away from conflicts about music and TRUST OUR BISHOPS to take care of us.
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Newbie2
Guest
No. Topics wax and wane, like the “gay” threads in Apologetics and currently the glut of “animal rights” posts.
Good post, Cat. It’s interesting to me how some will say “We need to do this and We need to do that” quoting all over the place when the Bishops clearly don’t want this or that done or are at least don’t seem to care one way or another. Yet these same folks seem to support the Bishops, again with the quotations, when whatever the topic de jour suits them.
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benedictgal
Guest
Cat, with all due respect, you play the same card over and over again. Disagreement does not equal disrespect, disessenion nor disobedience. You make accusations that, as I read them, are baseless. You keep repeating things over and over and equating reading the documents for ourselves as some sort of Protestantism. However, the Church does not see it in that way. She posts her documents for everyone to read. This allows all of us to familiarize ourselves with what she dictates so that we can ensure that what we are doing meets the standards set forth.
The bishop generally entrusts the liturgy to his diocesan liturgical commission. They assist him in matters concerning the Mass. It is incumbent upon these folks to read up on the authoritative documents of the Church so as to ensure that whatever is happening in the diocese meets the standards set forth by the Church. The bishop, for his part, needs to ensure that the liturgies in his diocese are in accordance with the Church. He does not have unlimited authority. The USCCB does not have unlimited authority.
Based on my experience having served on my diocesan liturgical commission, the bishop (at least mine), is rather laissez faire about the whole thing. It can be good, but, it can also be rather bad. Good, if you are doing what the Church expects you to do; bad if he lets anything into the barn.
The bishop does not bear the sole responsibility in all of this. It is up to everyone involved in liturgy, from the celebrant to the cantor, to familiarize themselves with what the documents of the Church say. Unfortunately, there have been cases where even some of the bishops themselves have disobeyed the authoritative documents of the Church and have gone beyond their own limited authority. Had that not been the case, I can assure you that Ecclesia de Mysterio and Redemptionis Sacramentum would never have been written.
Furthermore, if we read the documents in tandem with the writings of the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI and even, to some extent, Pope John Paul II, then we can get a much better handle on how to interpret them because the two popes have explained what they mean. Nothing in the Holy Father’s book contradicts the documents. In fact, Pope Benedict explains them and interprets them rather masterfully. However, there are those who seem to disregard what he says and relegate his comments as being simply his own personal opinion.
What Pope Benedict wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis, is authoritative. He is not writing as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. He is writing as the Holy Father, and, he is responding to the statement made by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist that the music used at Youth Masses is problematic.
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