Do We Need all of the PreVatican Traditions?

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trickster said:
A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?

I say that partly out of another thread that I am involved with about alter girls…there has been a long time tradition of boys only and I think that is one tradition we can scrap…anyways, what part of the church in 1948 can we scrap in the interests of the church making sense in 2012?

Bruce
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I think you’re on to something. Altar boys have already been marginalized in many dioceses. They can probably be abolished - worldwide - easier than communion on the tongue. Naturally, there will be reactionary elements who will argue that fewer altar boys will likely result in fewer vocations to the priesthood. Big deal. Many parishes in the USA are effectively administered by lay women. The Catholic priesthood has been standing in the way of progress for centuries. It’s about time for them to voluntarily step down from their parish assignments, retire to cloistered communities, and consecrate the Blessed Sacrament in private rituals. Face it. Girls are on the march. They’re pleasant to look at, they have rights, and they’re not going away.

At that point, you will be free to scrap it all.
 
mick321 said:
I think you’re on to something. Altar boys have already been marginalized in many dioceses. They can probably be abolished - worldwide - easier than communion on the tongue. Naturally, there will be reactionary elements who will argue that fewer altar boys will likely result in fewer vocations to the priesthood. Big deal. Many parishes in the USA are effectively administered by lay women. The Catholic priesthood has been standing in the way of progress for centuries. It’s about time for them to voluntarily step down from their parish assignments, retire to cloistered communities, and consecrate the Blessed Sacrament in private rituals. Face it. Girls are on the march. They’re pleasant to look at, they have rights, and they’re not going away.
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You’re… eh… joking right?
 
trickster said:
I’d be interested to hear about how girl alter servers “crowd” out boys? I have never seen that and girl alter servers are quite common in our diocese.

Bruce
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What we discovered at the three parishes we were members of over the years was that boys of altar serving age generally don’t like to do things with girls. Girls of that age (including my own) tend to be bossy, and will try to boss the boys around. Boys like to do “boy things,” without girls. When the girls are there, the boys will quit.

When our third parish (these were all OF parishes) went back to having only boy servers, there were suddenly more than enough boys to fill all Masses with at least two on weekdays, and four for each of the seven weekend Masses.

When the new pastor brought the girls back, the boys left, and now it is mostly girls.

Boys and girls may be equal, but they are not the same.
 
trickster said:
A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?

I say that partly out of another thread that I am involved with about alter girls…there has been a long time tradition of boys only and I think that is one tradition we can scrap…anyways, what part of the church in 1948 can we scrap in the interests of the church making sense in 2012?

Bruce
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Last time I checked there is no “traditional church.” There is only the Church with different practices. The Church makes sense through time, because she is meant for an eternal life. Regardless of your thinking, judging from your others posts, truth does not change. It is impossible for truth to change, it can be defined, but not changed. 1948, 2012, 2095, or what ever, the Church Dogma, and moral truths will remain. What I don’t understand is this, if someone has issues on the way a certain group i.e., Catholics, why does that person remain in that group? Why does that person or groups put in so much effort to change that institution’s beliefs? Would it not be easier to just leave and try a different institution? Or better yet start their own?
 
trickster said:
A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?
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I think of the traditions of our faith as a treasure, so, of course, I don’t want to throw them out. If any are inconsistent with our society, that is a good indication of a problem with society.

Let me try to explain why I value tradition so highly. It connects me to my forefathers in the Faith and allows me to experience that the Church transcends time. For example, I often prepare for Communion by praying a prayer written by St. Ambrose. This prayer captures my thoughts and feelings better than I am able to manage with my own words. This Catholic who lived around 1600 years ago had a similar experience of Communion to mine and, by his sanctity and eloquence, helps me to say what I need to say to God.
 
trickster said:
In my understanding I would differ a bit. The pre-Vatican mass - as an example - is only 500 years old…and it was brought in as part of a global and unifying mass said in Latin the same way all over the world…that was a brilliant move on the part of the church’s counter reformation. Prior to that, (the first 1500 years, the church was more localized with local customs being better reflected…that is what we returned to in the 60s.).

Bruce
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It’s true that the missal of 1570 imposed greater uniformity on the Church, but if you study the Mass you’ll find it didn’t substantial change in most of Christendom after the time of St. Gregory the Great (~AD 500) so it’s truer to say the the EF Mass is 1,500 years old. The Canon is at least 1,700 years old and ancient authorities credit it to St. Peter.
 
Peggy_in_Burien said:
What we discovered at the three parishes we were members of over the years was that boys of altar serving age generally don’t like to do things with girls. Girls of that age (including my own) tend to be bossy, and will try to boss the boys around. Boys like to do “boy things,” without girls. When the girls are there, the boys will quit.

When our third parish (these were all OF parishes) went back to having only boy servers, there were suddenly more than enough boys to fill all Masses with at least two on weekdays, and four for each of the seven weekend Masses.

When the new pastor brought the girls back, the boys left, and now it is mostly girls.

Boys and girls may be equal, but they are not the same.
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Agree. I can see how that can happen.
 
floresco said:
I think of the traditions of our faith as a treasure, so, of course, I don’t want to throw them out. If any are inconsistent with our society, that is a good indication of a problem with society.

Let me try to explain why I value tradition so highly. It connects me to my forefathers in the Faith and allows me to experience that the Church transcends time. For example, I often prepare for Communion by praying a prayer written by St. Ambrose. This prayer captures my thoughts and feelings better than I am able to manage with my own words. This Catholic who lived around 1600 years ago had a similar experience of Communion to mine and, by his sanctity and eloquence, helps me to say what I need to say to God.
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I feel the same way. The traditions of our faith are very dear to me and they bring me so much closer to God and to those who have gone before us. Nothing should be thrown out.

Also, you’re right, about the Church and it it transcending time. The Church does not change because society changes but society changes, or people change to follow the Church. That is such a problem in our world today, people expecting the Church to change to suit their desires. Modernism.

I looked up St. Ambrose prayer to say before Communion and wonder if this is the prayer you are talking about. It is a beautiful prayer.

liturgies.net/Prayers/communion.htm
 
mick321 said:
I think you’re on to something. Altar boys have already been marginalized in many dioceses.
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Altar serving became marginalized when they dropped Psalm 42 from the Mass. It had taken about a month to learn the Latin necessary to make the responses (you think it’s easy with the choir singing something else?) and when they dropped the servers’ responses altogether, there was not too much left. It only took two or three times to learn how to pour cruets and move the missal and today the priests can do that by themselves.
 
To answer the OP:

Yes, we do need all the old traditions.

It was the height of folly to make such swingeing changes to something that points to the eternal.
**
It has had at least one good effect, however. It has brought all of the modernists out of the shadows where we can see them.**
 
I vote for altarboys so that little male minds may conceive of one day having a priestly vocation.
 
trickster said:
A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?

I say that partly out of another thread that I am involved with about alter girls…there has been a long time tradition of boys only and I think that is one tradition we can scrap…anyways, what part of the church in 1948 can we scrap in the interests of the church making sense in 2012?

Bruce
Click to expand...
THe point of altar boys being men, is to inspire vocations to the priesthood. There should only be male altar boys, just as there should only be male priests.
 
trickster said:
In my understanding I would differ a bit. The pre-Vatican mass - as an example - is only 500 years old…and it was brought in as part of a global and unifying mass said in Latin the same way all over the world…that was a brilliant move on the part of the church’s counter reformation. Prior to that, (the first 1500 years, the church was more localized with local customs being better reflected…that is what we returned to in the 60s.).

Of course, your right no one council (Starting with the council of Jerusalem in 48 AD) does not settle things once and for all for the church…I remember the pre-vatican church as I was born in 1957 so I am no against it…but I can’t tell you how excited we were in the ground in the mid to late 60s with the progressive changes that eventaully got to the parish level…

My question is simply what kinds of things should we scrap from the old church if any…just a curiosity based on that SSFX (whatever the acronym is) priest said about the 1948 church and not wanting to go backwards…that’s all…

Bruce
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Tradition is not something that can be scrapped. The Church is Tradition, and we look to the future of Jesus’ second coming, while always keeping to the Wisdom of the Past. The Church is not about embracing Modernism, it does not exist to be progressive and change with the times. All doctrine is the same, why not tradition? There is nothing wrong with going backwards, especially when in American culture going forwards means becoming more and more insane.
 
trickster said:
I’d be interested to hear about how girl alter servers “crowd” out boys? I have never seen that and girl alter servers are quite common in our diocese.

Bruce
Click to expand...
because boys and girls at similar ages act like well, children. Once girls take up the role of altar boy, boys will start to associate it with femininity. Ever heard a kid ever say “That’s a girl’s thing.” This will keep boys from joining. However, if we return to tradition, the boy will see the position of altar boy as a special role for him in the Church. One, in which, he will grow in faith, gain a position of prominence in the Church and inspire him to the priesthood. The Altar Boy is in many ways similar to the priest, and therefore is the domain of men and boys. He is assisting like an Acolyte and a Deacon, all male roles.

Women’s domain in the Church is just as important, but has other roles entirely. I am sure the altar girls are contributing to our unfortunate female “vocations” to the priesthood, which ruin their and other souls. Girls start to see the role of altar boy as also for girls, they see the similarity between their roles and the priesthood, and some will start to ask “why can’t I be a priest?”
 
Not_Sure said:
because boys and girls at similar ages act like well, children. Once girls take up the role of altar boy, boys will start to associate it with femininity. Ever heard a kid ever say “That’s a girl’s thing.” This will keep boys from joining. However, if we return to tradition, the boy will see the position of altar boy as a special role for him in the Church. One, in which, he will grow in faith, gain a position of prominence in the Church and inspire him to the priesthood. The Altar Boy is in many ways similar to the priest, and therefore is the domain of men and boys. He is assisting like an Acolyte and a Deacon, all male roles.

Women’s domain in the Church is just as important, but has other roles entirely. I am sure the altar girls are contributing to our unfortunate female “vocations” to the priesthood, which ruin their and other souls. Girls start to see the role of altar boy as also for girls, they see the similarity between their roles and the priesthood, and some will start to ask “why can’t I be a priest?”
Click to expand...
👍
 
Not_Sure said:
Tradition is not something that can be scrapped. The Church is Tradition, and we look to the future of Jesus’ second coming, while always keeping to the Wisdom of the Past. The Church is not about embracing Modernism, it does not exist to be progressive and change with the times. All doctrine is the same, why not tradition? There is nothing wrong with going backwards, especially when in American culture going forwards means becoming more and more insane.
Click to expand...
👍
 
We have two (2) legal forms of the Roman Rite, EF & OF. For 40+ years we have fought the good fight to have the EF Mass. Finally it is within our grasp, to be celebrated on an equal footing with the OF Mass, (except it isn’t yet that way). If you want to change the Mass go ahead and work for the changes in the newer Mass. But please, leave us with our “old” Mass.

God Bless
 
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