Do We Need all of the PreVatican Traditions?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Actually the tradition was that only men were allowed in the sanctuary.* (Didn’t this go back to the first century?)

The 60’s and 70’s seem to break the barriers and make that sanctuary available to readers, speakers, cantors, EMHC, candle-holders and finally the servers.

• exception being the nuptual Mass.

I believe that exceptions also existed within cloistered monasteries of women and the deaconess who entered the sanctuary to receive the Eucharist along with the deacons.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

God has established the Church, not men, The Holy Spirit of God guides the Church, not men. Jesus told His disciples to be perfect as His Father is heaven is perfect. Can you explain what you mean by different Rites? And who established them?

Peace,
Ed

Are you saying that God does not work through men within His Church?

The different Rites are the different theological/liturgical Rites.

 

[thewanderer]

I entirely agree with you, YoungTradCath, that there were many abuses following Vatican II, I never meant to imply otherwise. Looking back, I realize I did get a little sidetracked though. I think I’ll try to reform my thoughts and start another thread about my questions. In response to the OP I would say that I think it’s best not to go around getting rid of traditions. If a tradition or practice is pious and helps people grow closer to Christ then it shouldn’t be done away with. That being said, just because a tradition exists shouldn’t mean that everyone has to follow it. What is a very helpful tradition to one person might make things very difficult for someone with a different spirituality. I agree with the intent of the OP insofar as we should be open to change that will help people grow closer to Christ, but think one should be wary of the idea of doing away with old traditions as it is possible they are very helpful to others, even if they are difficult for you.

God has established the Church, not men, The Holy Spirit of God guides the Church, not men. Jesus told His disciples to be perfect as His Father is heaven is perfect. Can you explain what you mean by different Rites? And who established them?

Peace,
Ed

Like ByzCathCantor said, I’m talking about the different liturgical rites. The Latin Rite ( in either of it’s forms) is only one of the many ( I believe twenty-something?) different rites in the Catholic Church. All established by Rome. The traditions of the Latin Rite are by no means the only way to salvation.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Like ByzCathCantor said

Not to be a pain but I believe I said that, not ByzCathCantor.

 

[Melchior_1]

Another thing to consider with altar girls is that it is a fruit borne out of **disobedience **(generally a bad tree).

**Disobedience **is bad fruit, and bad fruit comes from bad trees. Our lord said by their fruits you will know them…

Devil’s advocate; without naming any specific group, your above statement would denote that Societies of Apostolic Life whose current position within the Church are borne from disobedience have bad fruit, yes?

 

[Leon_Bloy]

“Pre-Vatican” (assuming you mean “Pre-Vatican II”) is a deeply flawed concept in and of itself.

Vatican II never said anything about getting rid of many ancient practices that still have their place in the Church, despite what people might have said to the contrary immediately after the council.

 

[YoungTradCath]

“Pre-Vatican” (assuming you mean “Pre-Vatican II”) is a deeply flawed concept in and of itself.

Vatican II never said anything about getting rid of many ancient practices that still have their place in the Church, despite what people might have said to the contrary immediately after the council.

This is the very crux of the whole situation.

 

[thewanderer]

Not to be a pain but I believe I said that, not ByzCathCantor.

Sorry, my bad!

 

[trickster]

That isn’t correct. The Canon of the Latin Mass dates back to the 4th century, some argue even older. The Latin Mass wasn’t just created on the spot in the 16th century, like many people claim it was. Pope St. Pius V simply made that version of the Latin Mass uniform across the Church because so many different versions had popped up (although all similar). The ‘spirit of Vatican II’ that happened in the 70s is certainly not a mirror of the early Church.

Most of those progressive changes included liturgical abuses and the throwing out of traditional practices that were many hundreds of years old. Those changes did incredible damage to the Church, both on whole and on the parish level. Thousands of priests left the Church after the progressive changes following Vatican II, and thousands of Catholics lost faith in the Church. The Church they had grown up to know and love, for them, seemed to have changed radically into something different. Many people felt disconnected and were upset. Of course Vatican II was not supposed to be a break with the past… but try telling that to some of the liberals who advocated the innovations post-Vatican II.

Nothing.

God Bless Bruce,

Tridentinum.

C’mon Tridentinun…tell us what you really think As always nice to hear from you and the conciseness in which you respond…

Bruce

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Since we seem to be interested in alter girls and boys I guess what I would like to say is that I do like the idea of alter boys continuing…not necessarily to become priests, but to become good men. I think that when you serve with a priest and get to know religious brothers, you get good role models that teach us what it means to be men, to think beyond the materialism of today’s world and the finite existence that we have in life…so for that I like a place for boys to learn how to be spiritual.

Having said that, I think that girls equally need to be at the alter as servers…again it was women who attended the original sacrifice, and spirituality that is informed by gender experience at the alter is very strong “medicine” in many ways…so we need a place for girls to be altar servers.

Anyways, that’s my updated thought…

Bruce

There are many ways girls can serve the Church without being altar girls.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

That isn’t correct. The Canon of the Latin Mass dates back to the 4th century, some argue even older. The Latin Mass wasn’t just created on the spot in the 16th century, like many people claim it was. Pope St. Pius V simply made that version of the Latin Mass uniform across the Church because so many different versions had popped up (although all similar). The ‘spirit of Vatican II’ that happened in the 70s is certainly not a mirror of the early Church.

Most of those progressive changes included liturgical abuses and the throwing out of traditional practices that were many hundreds of years old. Those changes did incredible damage to the Church, both on whole and on the parish level. Thousands of priests left the Church after the progressive changes following Vatican II, and thousands of Catholics lost faith in the Church. The Church they had grown up to know and love, for them, seemed to have changed radically into something different. Many people felt disconnected and were upset. Of course Vatican II was not supposed to be a break with the past… but try telling that to some of the liberals who advocated the innovations post-Vatican II.

Nothing.

God Bless Bruce,

Tridentinum.

Very well put.

 

[melekali]

A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?

I say that partly out of another thread that I am involved with about alter girls…there has been a long time tradition of boys only and I think that is one tradition we can scrap…anyways, what part of the church in 1948 can we scrap in the interests of the church making sense in 2012?

Bruce

The liturgy develops organically. I don’t comprehend the question or its meaning.

 

[MariaGoretti88]

I like that one too, but this is the one I was talking about:
catholocity.net/prayers/St._Ambrose.htm

I pray this before receiving Holy Communion sometimes as well! I love this prayer especially when I pray it slowly and meditatively.

 

[ljsedivy]

What we discovered at the three parishes we were members of over the years was that boys of altar serving age generally don’t like to do things with girls. Girls of that age (including my own) tend to be bossy, and will try to boss the boys around. Boys like to do “boy things,” without girls. When the girls are there, the boys will quit.

When our third parish (these were all OF parishes) went back to having only boy servers, there were suddenly more than enough boys to fill all Masses with at least two on weekdays, and four for each of the seven weekend Masses.

When the new pastor brought the girls back, the boys left, and now it is mostly girls.

Boys and girls may be equal, but they are not the same.

Thank you and ditto here.

My son barely got going and wanted to quit. He was being made to look like a dufus in the presence of the girls he would serve with. Another mom told me the same thing: that her son, too, wanted to quit because he felt undermined by the girl servers.

I love and adore Cardinal Arinze and he, too, feels that altar girls were a big mistake. I couldn’t agree more. It’s just another blurring of the lines between gender roles. And next thing you know, it’s just a step in the slippery slope of ordaining women. Jesus did not ordain women.

 

[Thaelros]

People often buy into the system of political correctness because they have a lack of understanding (or are just plain ignorant) on the implicative biological and psychological differences between the genders. These temporal differences are reflections of the spiritual differences. Humans are meant to glorify God through sacrifice and obedience; however, the methods by which the glorification should be done differ between the genders. Men can glorify God to the fullest extent by sacrificing themselves to the service of the community. The three fundamental ways that this can be done is by sacrificing and being obedient to the service of a temporal community (being a leader), sacrificing and being obedient to the service of the first community (being a father), and sacrificing and being obedient to the service of the spiritual community (being a priest). Essentially, all that a man does is a variation of these three fundamental masculine methods. Women can glorify God to the fullest extent by sacrificing themselves to the bolstering and proliferation of the community. The three fundamental ways that this can be done is by sacrificing and being obedient to the bolstering and proliferation of the temporal community (being a representative to the needs of the community, nurturing its sustainability), sacrificing and being obedient to the bolstering and proliferation of the first community (creating life and nurturing this life for the betterment of the temporal and spiritual community), and sacrificing and being obedient to the bolstering and proliferation of the spiritual community (nurturing the life of the laity, the best expression of doing this is being a nun). Essentially, all that a woman does is a variation of these three fundamental feminine methods

Essentially, men and women check and balance each other. The servers must serve the nurturers so that the nurturers can sustain the community. The ministerial priesthood serves the common priesthood (the laity) so that the common priesthood can sustain the spiritual community. God serves man so that man can be the stewards of creation.

 

[jerry74383]

A curious question. For those of you who have adopted the traditional church (i.e. EO format, etc.), are there any traditions that you see as inconsistent with our society today?

Yes. But the problem is with society today, not the traditions. Which is why we need these traditions.

For example, compare the content of the prayers on this page (catholocity.net/prayers.htm), especially those of St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, or St. Thomas Aquinas, with the prayers commonly used today. What is the most noticeable difference? The acknowledgement that we are sinners. Poor, wretched, miserable sinners, at that. And the recognition of God’s grace and mercy as our only source of salvation.

 

[ljsedivy]

Yes. But the problem is with society today, not the traditions. Which is why we need these traditions.

EXACTLY! I couldn’t agree more.

What happens when the mass (the most perfect form of prayer) looks, sounds, smells, and just all around feels quite ordinary?? Basically, our Catholicism becomes the “thing” we do for one hour on Sunday. Or, perhaps, we can “get it in” on SATURDAY and “get it over with” so we can “sleep in” on Sunday. UGGH!

There is nothing different in our NO parish happening at mass. Because everything is so “ordinary” they come to the altar in jeans and house slippers, shorts and sandals and t-shirts, mini skirts and tank tops…you know…ORDINARY. NO DIFFERENT than the other 167 hours of the week.

When this is how we present ourselves to the King of Kings, any wonder why only 30% of Catholics believe in the true presence? Because there is nothing SPECIAL happening at the NO masses.

Imagine yourself meeting Jesus somewhere face-to-face. Do you “high-5” him? Shake his hand? or drop to your knees and wash His feet with your tears and dry them with your hair? I can’t be thankful enough for all He has done for me. I opt for the feet.

 

[mattkubes]

There is nothing different in our NO parish happening at mass. Because everything is so “ordinary” they come to the altar in jeans and house slippers, shorts and sandals and t-shirts, mini skirts and tank tops…you know…ORDINARY. NO DIFFERENT than the other 167 hours of the week.

When this is how we present ourselves to the King of Kings, any wonder why only 30% of Catholics believe in the true presence? Because there is nothing SPECIAL happening at the NO masses.

Imagine yourself meeting Jesus somewhere face-to-face. Do you “high-5” him? Shake his hand? or drop to your knees and wash His feet with your tears and dry them with your hair? I can’t be thankful enough for all He has done for me. I opt for the feet.

That’s when I knew things had to change for me. His Real Presence demands more. I thought of the exact image that you just mentioned - Jesus, the King of Kings enthroned on the altar in place of the tabernacle. How differently people would act if that were visibly the case…but that’s what the Eucharist is. And I don’t think this is just a sad consequence of our sensuum defectui - the pedestrian atmosphere that prevails before Our Lord in so many places points to a lack of faith in the Real Presence.

And yes, I’ll meet you down there with my face on the floor.

 

[Lormar]

EXACTLY! I couldn’t agree more.

What happens when the mass (the most perfect form of prayer) looks, sounds, smells, and just all around feels quite ordinary?? Basically, our Catholicism becomes the “thing” we do for one hour on Sunday. Or, perhaps, we can “get it in” on SATURDAY and “get it over with” so we can “sleep in” on Sunday. UGGH!

There is nothing different in our NO parish happening at mass. Because everything is so “ordinary” they come to the altar in jeans and house slippers, shorts and sandals and t-shirts, mini skirts and tank tops…you know…ORDINARY. NO DIFFERENT than the other 167 hours of the week.

When this is how we present ourselves to the King of Kings, any wonder why only 30% of Catholics believe in the true presence? Because there is nothing SPECIAL happening at the NO masses.

Imagine yourself meeting Jesus somewhere face-to-face. Do you “high-5” him? Shake his hand? or drop to your knees and wash His feet with your tears and dry them with your hair? I can’t be thankful enough for all He has done for me. I opt for the feet.

I opt for the feet as well - and even that’s too good.

 

[aragonjohn1]

Sackcloth and ashes? For moral sins?