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jerry74383
Guest
Moral sins? Isn’t that an oxymoron?
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
Back on altar girls, I remember at my parish when they were first introduced, the boys went out the door (of their own will) almost immediately. To this day there are more altar girls than boys, but even with both, that particular church struggles to have enough servers for all the Masses. This is a problem that never happened before serving became a girl’s thing.
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aragonjohn1
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jerry74383
Guest
If suspect that if we made more use of sackcloth and ashes there’d be fewer mortal sins…Oops I meant mortal sins.
Darndid autocorrect .
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thewanderer
Guest
There are plenty of ways to sacrifice and do penance in this world without sackcloth and ashes… In fact, seeing as sackcloth and ashes would stick out like a sore thumb and others could be done more privately it seems better to stick with the other penances. After all, we are not meant to show off our sacrifices to the world, but rather ‘fast in secret’ so that our reward will come in heaven rather than on earth.
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Rich_C
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Generally, I agree but recently I’ve learned more about Lent and how its a time of public penance, so the traditional Lenten fasts were done openly and in Catholic societies were shared by all. Only penances we do outside the normal or at the advice of our spiritual director are private. In the same way, the use of sackcloth and ashes in ancient times was a public penance sometimes done by a whole city (Ninevah, etc).
I think we need more of all kinds of penance (I am particularly weak in this regard) including public penance during Lent, to strengthen our faltering society. So there is a place for it.
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Padraig1972
Guest
To OP:
Yes we need those traditions. Anything else is a safe road to disaster.
Yes we need those traditions. Anything else is a safe road to disaster.
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ProVobis
Guest
For the sake of continuity if nothing else.
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CaptCrunch73
Guest
Haven't we been trying to do this for the last 50 years?
I’ve noticed that by reading books like 1962 Roman Missal, Blessed Be God and a copy of Lauds, Vespers and Compline in English that if we haven’t thrown out older traditions they’ve been obfuscated enough to cause confusion.
One example, there are many, how many folks pray the daily prayers for the souls in purgatory? Why has this devotion/tradition/prayer been tossed into the dust bin of history? I know that if I’m fortunate enough to make it to purgatory I certainly hope those in the church militant will be praying for me.
I think tossing out our older traditions is a huge mistake.
</opinion alert>
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Padraig1972
Guest
I pray daily for the souls in purgatory and defend the church
s old traditions on a daily basis in super-secular Norway when people look at you as completely insane if you are not doing things outside of Gods holy marriage, being “hot”, trendy-cool and “in time”.It is a tough job to speak the truth, but we are called to do it. 24-7-365-for life.
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onmyknees
Guest
I cant agree more! I wear nice dresses and skirts to mass but I always feel like I am too dressed up.
compared to everyone else.
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ock
Guest
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. enough said about Tradition !
2 Thes. 3:6 “We charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received from us.”
Second Epistle of St. John : ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you. For he that saith unto him: God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works’ (1:10-11).
2 Thes. 3:6 “We charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received from us.”
Second Epistle of St. John : ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you. For he that saith unto him: God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works’ (1:10-11).
Ecumenism is against Revelation !!!
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thewanderer
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That depends on what you mean by ecumenism.
There is a way to incorporate the culture of a society into the catholic faith that does not compromise the faith, thats why so many catholic holidays occur at the same time that ancient pagan holidays were held.yes, its easy to go to far, but just because somebody does something differently does not necessitate that it is incompatible with catholicism.
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ock
Guest
The ecumenism I was referring to is the false ecumenism of Vatican II that teaches that non-Catholics don’t need to return to the Catholic Church for unity and salvation.
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (#10), Jan. 6, 1928:
“… the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it…”
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (#10), Jan. 6, 1928:
“… the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it…”
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thewanderer
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If you mean something in the documents themselves you should provide a quote so that everyone who reads this can evaluate whether or not it is actually a false ecumenism. If you are talking about certain things that people did ‘in the spirit of vatican II’ it would probably be helpful to make that distinction clear
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ock
Guest
Vatican II document, Unitatis redintegratio (# 3):
“It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.”
This is one of Vatican II’s worst heresies. It constitutes a rejection of the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation.
It seems to me that all religions are esteemed by todays Church except those Traditional Catholics who had been excommunicated for standing fast in Catholic Tradition
“It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.”
This is one of Vatican II’s worst heresies. It constitutes a rejection of the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation.
It seems to me that all religions are esteemed by todays Church except those Traditional Catholics who had been excommunicated for standing fast in Catholic Tradition
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Lamafacaja
Guest
There’s plenty that’s inconsistent but that’s good, because in many ways we Catholics have gotten too lazy and spoiled. Everything’s a little tougher and a little stricter at the Latin Mass. The old rules on fasting, the longer liturgy and the homilies are tougher, too. The priests don’t avoid or gloss over the unpopular aspects of Catholicism. You’re expected to dress a little nicer and more modestly. The children have to learn their catechism.
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thewanderer
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There is more than one way to take that quote…I’m rather of the opinion that we ought to interpret it in light of the church’s past teachings. What exactly does this quote mean by ‘significance and importance’? These words could be taken to mean that people can be saved through other religions … Or they could be talking about, say the role of Judaism in the coming of Christ, the fact that becoming a Christian can often be the first step to becoming Catholic. The same kind of reasoning applies with the idea that they can be a ‘means’. There are different sorts of means, again, if a Protestants belief in Christ and the Bible leads him to stuy the early fathers and become Catholic, then yes, a Protestant religion was a means to becoming Catholic. I don’t know, it just seems like since it can be understood as not being heretical, it makes more sense for me to assume that it’s not.
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
I am not really sure if there is more to this than what is here. Like what context it is taken in, I have studied too much of VII, but I do feel, IMHO, that we have come to the place where we accept the “I’m okay, you’re okay” theology and no longer work to bring protestants home to the true faith and it makes me wonder how many souls will be lost with that thinking.
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ock
Guest
I agree Wonderer there are many ways to interpert documents of Vat 2 and that is exactly the problem !!! When the Church teaches it should do so with precison and clarity. It has been five decades now and they still cannot make a square peg fit into a round hole as witnessed most recently in talks between Rome and SSPX. Rome has now resorted to threats against SSPX with "incalculable consequences” if they refuse to conform. Why is it only traditionalists on the receiving end of what appears to be Vatican heavy-handedness?
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