Do we need the Bible?

[gtrenewed]

gtrenewed, if you list scriptures or the catechism without explaining ( I knew you well eneogh to mention it beforehand) how they apply to the question they are supposed to answer I’m left to my own to how your mind attaches concepts to them that explain the way you distinguish the Holy Spirit among the voices that whisper meanings in your mind. I knew that would happen because it’s been the pattern of conversation with you on this thread. You should respect the meaning that the author’s attached to the words you quote to support you view. Thinking you know better what the author’s of Sacred Scripture meant is excuseable but to think you know better what the author’s of the catechism mean is an insult to intellect. I pray that you at least open your mind to the possibility that what you have read from catholics on this thread is true. I pray that your mind opens to the possibility that the Catholic Church is the same Church the bible testifies too.

If you are in a noisy, crowded room and if someone you knew well spoke across the room and you heard them chances are you would recognize their voice. How does your mind attach that voice to that person? Because they are well known to you.
The mechanics of how that happens is interesting but not important, the fact remains, you just know!

The same applies to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is Jesus, the Word made flesh. When time is spent in Scripture, we learn His voice. In Hebrews it says that God will put His laws into our minds and write them on our hearts!

Because we are not running to the RCC, it appears you think this hearing is fraudulent. This hearing is real enough for the RCC to recognize that there are Christians outside of the visible confines of the RCC. I am not certain how I am insulting intellect when I say this - it is plainly written in the CCC.

You accuse me of not knowing what is meant by the author. How can this be when something is so plainly written. I acknowledged there were other considerations in this particular section which is more than I can say for you.

Are you telling me that when it says that the RCC accepts them(members of Churches and ecclesial communities) with respect and affection as brothers and they have a right to be called Christians and Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation; it doesn’t mean what it clearly says?

Or that many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the RCC such as the written Word of God; it doesn’t mean what it clearly says?

I have already said that the RCC is part of the Body of Christ and as such is spoken about in Scripture. Some parts of the RCC are clear in Scripture while some parts are not, such as the selling of indulgences. Had Scripture been more widely available and read more by those it was available to, perhaps the laity would not have been exploited. However, the RCC looks much different today than the church started on the day of Pentecost.

There has to be agreement on common ground in the work towards unity, so says the CCC. I have yet to find most RC’s on this website even willing to agree with the CCC on the “wounds to unity” section; let alone have any real dialogue. When someone stands their ground, you resort to sola RCC, take it or perish!

I have both used opinion based on Scripture and Scripture itself to explain the reason why we need the Bible; however, our differences boil down to this:
Roman Catholic —> Roman Catholic Church —> Jesus —> Father God

Christian —> Jesus —> Father God. The denomination is a means of community. Fellowship occurs in the community, worship, teaching (elders teaching younger), discipline all occur within the structure of community as patterned by St. Paul in Scripture. Ultimately, our relationship with God the Father is through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit and each Christian.

That is the good news of the Gospel - we have access to the Father because Jesus paid our debt. We no longer have to go through the priestly sacrifice and the once yearly high priestly sacrifice; but as Hebrews says “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

And again in Hebrews “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, know the Lord, for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more.”

And again in Hebrews “Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

And so we assemble together with like minded believers in a community believing with a sincere heart what God has promised us in Scripture. And whether there is tens or hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of communities there is still one Body of Christ, one faith (in the blood of Jesus), one baptism( in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins), in the unity of the Holy Spirit (who points us towards Jesus and empowers us with gifts).

Peace and let us help those that are in need!

 

[twb1621]

…

Are you saying that there are more RCC converted scholars than non-converted scholars? Isn’t it more likely that non-RC scholars outnumber converted non-RC scholars? Do you have a reference?

I am saying there are more scholars who after receiving advanced educations converted to Catholicism than scholars of the Catholic Faith who left Catholicism for any other faith. It is general information that can be researched publically just as I have done.

My opinions reflect my understanding of Scripture prayerfully studied. To go on and on would not do any good because we are using the same Scriptures from differing viewpoints. Also, I do find holes in your Scriptural proof, that is a misapplication of certain Scriptures. I am not trying to dissuade you but to show that there is a church, part of the Body of Christ along with the RCC.

I am sorry but I have not seen any responses that you have offered specifically pertaining to verses I have referenced so I can not see where we are referring to scripture verses one in the same as each other. However, I would welcome your responses specifically to the verses I refer to for discussion. I appreciate your sincerity but trust me when I say you will not dissuade me my Christian brother. I would also deeply welcome any rebuttals you may have if you believe you have found misapplications in my usage provided you provide scriptural support to substantiate them. These things are why we are here.

Consider the following:
Without quoting in its entirety, from Galatians chapter 2, I come away with several main points: 1 - Jesus revealed the Gospel outside of the Jerusalem leaders of James, Cephas, and John; not leader but leaders;

I have to say this; I do not want you to think I believe all of your opinions or understandings are wrong. As I have said before, I see the devotion you have in your heart. But you DO follow double standards in your selection of what you will believe which is very evident in your posts and that is self defeating in the journey to come to know the full teachings and love of Christ. For instance, to disregard the ECFs (a critical error) but accept other unrelated sources to base what you will accept in your Christian beliefs is no less than selectively choosing so you can believe what suit’s you rather than learning the full truth in Christian Faith.

You can say you have not been inhibited in your relationship with our Lord but one doesn’t know something has been missing until one discovers it. Jesus’ ministry was revealing the Gospel to all and the apostles themselves were actually the first of His Church. No one who would listen was denied hearing His Word. Each apostle in the service to Christ was a leader among the disciples he preached the Gospel to. So I do not see your point. If you are attempting to reference this as support against the seat of Peter, that is not the intent of the passage and it is not credible at all. Each bishop of each bishopric was a leader in his own region as they are today. A deacon can be a leader dependant upon the circumstances just as a priest can be a leader and so on. Many people have and hold leadership positions of many kinds but still have a guiding authority they answer too.

continued…

 

[twb1621]

2 - Cephas was caught in hypocrisy by his actions he was not straightforward about the truth of the Gospel;

This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. Refer to the following information;
Biblical Interpretation – [11-14] The decision reached in Jerusalem (⇒ Gal 2:3-7) recognized the freedom of Gentile Christians from the Jewish law. But the problem of table fellowship between Jewish Christians, who possibly still kept kosher food regulations, and Gentile believers was not yet settled. When Kephas first came to the racially mixed community of Jewish and Gentile Christians in Antioch (⇒ Gal 2:12), he ate with non-Jews. Pressure from persons arriving later from Jerusalem caused him and Barnabas to draw back. Paul therefore publicly rebuked Peter’s inconsistency toward the gospel (⇒ Gal 2:14). Some think that what Paul said on that occasion extends through ⇒ Gal 2:16, ⇒ 21.
15-21] Following on the series of incidents cited in this passage, Paul’s argument, whether spoken to Kephas at Antioch or only now articulated, is pertinent to the Galatian situation, where believers were having themselves circumcised (⇒ Gal 6:12-13) and obeying other aspects of Jewish law (⇒ Gal 4:9-10; ⇒ 5:1-4). He insists that salvation is by faith in Christ, not by works of the law. His teaching on the gospel concerns justification by faith (⇒ Gal 2:16) in relation to sin (⇒ Gal 2:17), law (⇒ Gal 2:19), life in Christ (⇒ Gal 2:19-20), and grace (⇒ Gal 2:21).

In his actions, he fell to human weakness, or did he? Was it a deliberate act that he performed in prejudice or judgment against the Gentiles? Or was there more to the event than what you received out of it? The above Biblical interpretation was offered by scholars in ancient History, ancient language, ancient literary forms, and ancient civilizations just to point out a few attributes that need to be considered in the interpretation of much of scripture. And were did the idea come from that any apostle was beyond human weakness? All of the apostles were subject to human weakness. Peter’s error was never in the teaching of the Word. There is nothing in scripture to lead anyone to believe anyone but Christ would be perfect or above all human weakness.

3 - faith is not a set of rules but simply belief (faith) in Christ Jesus. The unity is in the Gospel. That is the one faith, one baptism (in the name of Jesus).

No… no…. my loved but misguided brother. You just obliterated the teachings of Christ in two brief sentances.

Belief in what? What you personally believe He teaches and expects of us, if anything? Or What the Baptist Church believes He teaches and expects of us, if anything … or what the Methodist Church believes He teaches and expects of us, if anything … or what the Lutheran Church believes He teaches and expects of us, if anything … what the Evangelical Church believes He teaches and expects of us, if anything … what the Pentecostal Church believes He teaches and expects of us, if anything … and so on…
scborromeo.org/truth/figure1.pdf Each with their own “faith” or beliefs.

Do you think saying you believe in Jesus Christ is good enough even if what you believe is not what He teaches? If that is good enough for you, you wouldn’t be here. I myself was not satisfied not knowing what His True Word was and is. You can not know someone intimately without learning their true self.

Continued…

 

[twb1621]

The Holy Spirit is the Author of the Inspired Word of God. Do you think He guided everyone to their different interpretations of what He was saying or do you think He didn’t know what He was saying? Some say faith alone but works are not necessary, others say works are necessary, others say they are born again and no matter what sins they commit they are saved, while others say works are automatic and there is no free will involved…. But according to your statement its all good? That is Sola Scriptura and sola scriptura is a persons self justification to accept those parts of the Catholic Church’s teachings of Christ they choose while disregarding those teachings too inconvenient or too difficult to understand. Please re-read these verses;

***1 Corinthians CH1; 9 God is faithful: by whom you are called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ***that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
Faith- The acceptance of the word of another, trusting that one knows what the other is saying and is honest in telling the truth. The basic motive of all faith is the authority (or right to be believed) of someone who is speaking. This authority is an adequate knowledge of what he or she is talking about, and integrity in not wanting to deceive. It is called divine faith when the one believed is God, and human faith when the persons believed are human beings. (Etym. Latin fides, belief; habit of faith; object of faith.)

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[twb1621]

1Cor 3:21-23 “So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul, or Apollos or Cephas …
and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” I use this to prayerfully balance the writings of the ECF’s.

There are so many things in the Catholic “faith” that it resembles works of the “law” to me. The only criteria from Galatians 2 outside of the Gospel was to remember the poor. The Gospel being Jesus, one with the Father, became man, was crucified, died, buried, risen, and sits at the Father’s right hand is our salvation because our sins have been wiped out by His precious Blood.
When you say I only give opinion, I try give opinion based on Scripture as the foundation as I prayerfully have studied. I have not stopped studying. That is how I came to this website. I continue in growing by the water of the Word.
I disagree with your statement that Scripture cannot preach. It is the preaching of the Apostles on what Jesus preached. It is living as Hebrews 4:12 says. When I have taken my eyes off of Jesus, it has been Scripture that refocuses me.

I do understand your opinions are based on prayerful consideration but do you understand there is satan on the other hand who doesn’t want you to get it right? And do you understand the difference between works of the “law” and works of “faith” and “love”? Do you understand the commandments of our Father call for works… works of Faith and love? Do you understand the works the Catholic Church refers to are of our Lord’s teachings;

Matthew CH25; 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

These are works of Faith and Love of Christ. This is why faith without works is dead.

 

[Ricky1979]

Ummmm…which one words are not from God??? Please explain

***Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inseparable and complete one another. Each sheds light upon the other. The Bible is the Word of God transmitted to us in the words of human authors.

The words in the Bible are inspired by God, although not every word in the Bible is from God.

The Bible has a human nature, by virtue of the words of the human authors and also a divine nature, by virtue of the Word of God contained therein.

This is much like the Word of God, our Lord Jesus. Both human and divine.***

 

[gtrenewed]

I am saying there are more scholars who after receiving advanced educations converted to Catholicism than scholars of the Catholic Faith who left Catholicism for any other faith. It is general information that can be researched publically just as I have done.

OK thanks for the clarification but you kind of “crawdaddied” in the last sentence but I’ll take you at your word.

I have to say this; I do not want you to think I believe all of your opinions or understandings are wrong. As I have said before, I see the devotion you have in your heart. But you DO follow double standards in your selection of what you will believe which is very evident in your posts and that is self defeating in the journey to come to know the full teachings and love of Christ.

Not sure what you mean by double standards? Can you give an example?
I hear this full teachings and love of Christ quite a bit. Can you give me some examples?

For instance, to disregard the ECFs (a critical error) but accept other unrelated sources to base what you will accept in your Christian beliefs is no less than selectively choosing so you can believe what suit’s you rather than learning the full truth in Christian Faith.

I do not disregard the ECF’s. In fact, it was in reading them and the catholic encyclopedia that I came to some of my conclusions.

You can say you have not been inhibited in your relationship with our Lord but one doesn’t know something has been missing until one discovers it.

This is true…but… Can you please tell me, what have I been missing that you have the experience to point out is missing?

I feel as Paul said … Not that I have arrived or consider myself having attained all there is to Christ, but I keep going forward. I know there is more that eye has not seen nor ear heard. But I find your statement condescending. You may not have meant it that way but in fact that is what it is.

I have experienced some exciting things that just happened in the course of living out my life in Jesus and interacting with people.

We need the Bible because we need to see who we are in Christ Jesus not who someone else says we are. We can be bold knowing that it is not I but Christ in me and God watching over His Word making certain that it does not come back void but that it accomplishes all that It set out to accomplish. Whenever I have went astray, it has been Scripture that has brought me back, even from a near cult experience.

 

[Benadam]

The mechanics of how that happens is interesting but not important, the fact remains, you just know!

OK this is your answer to my question. St John thought it was important to test the spirits. He didn’t teach ‘you just know’

You accuse me of not knowing what is meant by the author. How can this be when something is so plainly written. I acknowledged there were other considerations in this particular section which is more than I can say for you.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

To answer the question if we need the bible or not. Of course we need sacred scripture. Look at this following quote from Dei Verbum,“The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures … She has always maintained them, and continues to do so, together with sacred tradition, as the supreme rule of faith, since, as inspired by God and committed once and for all to writing, they impart the word of God Himself without change, and make the voice of the Holy Spirit resound in the words of the prophets and Apostles. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture.” Now, then the question comes on how to interpret the divine oracles, the Bible. And that is a challenge. For example, when I was a protestant, a magesterial Lutheran/Episcopal in beleif, I had decided that Rome had gone astray as well as the majority of modern day Christinaity. I felt it was my duty, to intepret the scriptures to restore the gosepl “untainted” by Rome AND the other 30,000+ denominations of Protestantism. I FELT that I had been anointed by the Holy Spirit to do God’s mission. I felt that Rome had gone to far on some traditions, but I also felt modern day Protestantism threw out to much and was a radical departure from Biblical Christinaity. You may say I was a “halfway” Catholic by picking and choosing the traditions which I deemed fit. In other words, take the Euharist for example, I always believed in the Literal Presence of Christ within the Bread and Wine, and I could demonstrate that from SCRIPTURE ALONE. However, many of my peers saw me as grossly distorting the scripture when I did not see things they did. Now, if we are to be in ONE SPIRIT, how does one deem which “spirit” is telling the truth? I surely felt compelled by God to SAVE his Church from ALL THESE “HERETICS”. So in short, I had the audacity to say I was going to make my own church in order to proclaim the “true” gospel. But after much prayer and deliberation, I crossed the Tiber, and the Euphrates as well into Lebanaon The clear answer to the question is answered by the quote I provided,"…(The Church) has always maintained (The Scriptues), and continues to do so, TOGETHER WITH SACRED TRADITION, as the supreme rule of faith…" Without tradition, the Bible is open to anyone to twist the words as St.Peter states within his epistle. Without an infallible Church being the final arbiter, one can just start a “church” as one pleases which is totally contrary to the Gosepl.

 

[twb1621]

…

Hi G… works referred to by the CC are not works of the “Law” as in the OT, but works of Charity and humility in the love of Christ. Many non-Catholics have a distorted view as to the existance of two distinct references but works are a sign and part of our acceptance of the Word of God and our faith and trust in Him. Something I wanted to add to clarify what works are in regard to the teachings of the Catholic Faith, see the following;

To clarify for you what “works” refers to in regard to the teachings of the Catholic Faith, I have presented some of the Biblical references;

Romans CH10; 14 But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!”

John CH12; 44 Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, 45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

John CH5; 24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John CH12; 26 Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me. (Following Christ through Works of Charity and humility)

Matthew CH10; 38 and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple - amen, I say to you, he will surely not lose his reward." (Following Christ through Works of Charity and humility)

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[twb1621]

James CH1; 22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. 24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue 14 but deceives his heart, his religion is vain. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows 15 in their affliction and to keep one self unstained by the world. (Following Christ through Works of Charity and humility)

James CH2; 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (Following Christ through Works of Charity and humility)

Mark CH10; 17 As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’” 20 He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.” 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” (following Christ through Works of Charity and humility)

as you can see, these works are not the works of the Law… I hope this helps you.

I will return to respond to your last post a bit later.
Peace

 

[twb1621]

…

I hear this full teachings and love of Christ quite a bit. Can you give me some examples?

Absolutely… The examples are in you. Those things you question or falsely accuse regarding the Catholic Church that you do not believe or understand show what you are lacking in Christian teachings. You ask the questions and many here will give you the answers. What you do with those answers is up to you but keep asking the more you know the closer you get on the road to knowing Christ intimately.

Of course some of what you have been taught or derived from scripture is accurate but how important are those things you do not know or understand or believe because someone told you “you don’t need this or that” and filled you with the “its all good” philosophy… I would be cautious when someone tells you, you need less than what the Bride of Christ teaches. That seems suspicious in itself, wouldn’t you agree? Would satan benefit from you believing and desiring to receive the Eucharist as the true Body and Blood of Christ or would he benefit from you not believing it? Would satan benefit from you going to sincerely confess sin asking for forgiveness before a representative of Christ’s Church or would be benefit from you not believing in this sacrament?

Maybe some of these things you are familiar with or maybe not… For instance; what do you really know or understand about honor of the Blessed Virgin?
What do you know or understand about the celebration of the mass or the Eucharist?
What about Baptism of Infants or veneration of saints. You already showed your lack of understanding in what the Catholic Church teaches in regard to works and faith so there are more teachings that lead to the fullness of Christianity.

Does scripture tell you what the contents of scripture should be or how to be sure what should be included in the Inspired Word of God? No. That determination and service to God was left to His Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. But it does tell you for instance, that not everything could be written in what Jesus said and did. It also tells us there is much to come through the guidance of the Holy Spirit:

*John CH21; 25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. *
John CH16; 12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

Remember that the NT written gospels were not in writing in the beginning and that the ECFs verify what they were taught by the apostles before much of the writings were available. Read the writings of the Church Fathers without bias. But understand this time as you read their writings, what you may choose not to accept reflects your doubt in their God given guidance of the Holy Spirit as Christ proclaimed and if they did not have this guidance, you would have no way of knowing if the scriptures you read are worth anything let alone the Inspired Word of God. This does not mean they as individuals were infallible but proofs are in the corroboration of their writings and supported by scripture. You also might keep in mind that for 2000 years of archeological discoveries, all that has been unearthed has supported the Catholic Faith along with the lineage of the teachings of scripture, not undermined it.

I do not disregard the ECF’s. In fact, it was in reading them and the catholic encyclopedia that I came to some of my conclusions.

Perhaps I didn’t understand you correctly earlier then?
continued…

 

[twb1621]

This is true…but… Can you please tell me, what have I been missing that you have the experience to point out is missing?

I feel as Paul said … Not that I have arrived or consider myself having attained all there is to Christ, but I keep going forward. I know there is more that eye has not seen nor ear heard. But I find your statement condescending. You may not have meant it that way but in fact that is what it is.

I have experienced some exciting things that just happened in the course of living out my life in Jesus and interacting with people.

We need the Bible because we need to see who we are in Christ Jesus not who someone else says we are. We can be bold knowing that it is not I but Christ in me and God watching over His Word making certain that it does not come back void but that it accomplishes all that It set out to accomplish. Whenever I have went astray, it has been Scripture that has brought me back, even from a near cult experience.

And you can feel confident it is the Holy Spirit in you that is guiding you but that guidance has also brought you here for a reason. I can not point out to you all that you are missing without teaching you what you do not know and I can not know what you do not Know without you asking questions.

My experience in a nut shell is this. I was in disagreement with the CC for 25 years. During my professional life in law, investigations, and research, I accumulated a great deal in many ways including power and authority and an ego to match. I thought I had control of a great deal not just in my life but others also until I was hit with God’s 2 X 4 across the back of the head and converted from the world I lived by to our Lord. I retired my profession to research all aspects of Christianity theologically and historically. I found that although I believed in Jesus, the “faith” I followed was of my own design and in fact was the same as many protestant faiths. But I didn’t believe Catholicism because I didn’t agree with some of the teachings and wanted to be of the true Church and teachings of Christ so I researched for the true faith. That began March 2003. What I found was the proof to bring me to shame for the things I criticized the Catholic Church for. That is why I said earlier it was the lineage of scripture that led me to the Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church that taught me what I know. And it was the Catholic Church that put it all into perspective and made Christ’s teachings clear. None of the other faiths held the answers to those questions many of us have because they do not have that fullness. But your questions will bring you the answers. And yes, we certainly need the Bible my brother, but it doesn’t stop there. That is where many lack the closeness they COULD have in a relationship with Jesus.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

Tom, I see you are similar to me. I in essence argued my way into the church ala Newman style.I used to accuse the pope of being a paegan leader, the saints were replacements of peagan gods, and many things that would put Jack Chick to shame. But, after letting go of my extreme Anti-catholic rigor, God opened my eyes to the fullness of truth, that is the church that has “The sum of the whole” ,the church “universal”, the Church Katholika

 

[gtrenewed]

To clarify for you what “works” refers to in regard to the teachings of the Catholic Faith, I have presented some of the Biblical references;

I understand works as taught in Scripture: actions of love that are inwardly motivated by our conversion to (faith in) Christ. What James saw was a selfishness of one Christian to another and called them to account: if they were Christian then there should be acts of love between brethren.

 

[gtrenewed]

And you can feel confident it is the Holy Spirit in you that is guiding you but that guidance has also brought you here for a reason. I can not point out to you all that you are missing without teaching you what you do not know and I can not know what you do not Know without you asking questions.

After 36 years as a cradle RC; I felt adrift from God. The church up to that point was my focus, but I did not have a consciousness of Jesus. The doing of the rituals of the church had not led me to Jesus in a conscious way. Then I under went a renewal that was centered around Scripture and in so doing, I found Jesus consciousness.

So in spite of doing and being “in the fullness”, I experienced no fullness.
When I centered my life around Scripture, I found the anchor of my soul.

That was 21 years ago. Over this time I have studied many denominations and find that indeed most ignore one or more points of Scripture. But in having my mind renewed in Scripture, I find more questions about why the works of the RCC did not awaken me.
This is my story. It may not be others story, but it is mine. I joined this forum in 2004 because around 2004 I briefly returned to the church. I felt hypocritical because I questioned many things. Still, I pursue my place in the Body of Christ. We have a big God and I think He can shoulder my questions.

I have returned here from time to time but do not have many posts because I find a hostility from some when someone disagrees with the RCC. So I go my way and return from time to time.

My experience in a nut shell is this. I was in disagreement with the CC for 25 years. During my professional life in law, investigations, and research,

Now I understand your style of posting. If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with…a mountain of material. It’s not your fault, it’s the way you have trained.
However, a good Bible rule is - By the mouth of two or three witnesses let every Word be established.

 

[kepha1]

If you are in a noisy, crowded room and if someone you knew well spoke across the room and you heard them chances are you would recognize their voice. How does your mind attach that voice to that person? Because they are well known to you.
The mechanics of how that happens is interesting but not important, the fact remains, you just know!

The same applies to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is Jesus, the Word made flesh. When time is spent in Scripture, we learn His voice. In Hebrews it says that God will put His laws into our minds and write them on our hearts!

The Church tells us to spend time in Scripture as a worthy devotion, in addition the the numerous readings we HEAR at Mass.

Because we are not running to the RCC, it appears you think this hearing is fraudulent. This hearing is real enough for the RCC to recognize that there are Christians outside of the visible confines of the RCC. I am not certain how I am insulting intellect when I say this - it is plainly written in the CCC.

You accuse me of not knowing what is meant by the author. How can this be when something is so plainly written. I acknowledged there were other considerations in this particular section which is more than I can say for you.

Are you telling me that when it says that the RCC accepts them(members of Churches and ecclesial communities) with respect and affection as brothers and they have a right to be called Christians and Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation; it doesn’t mean what it clearly says?

Yes, that is what it says, and it also laments the incomplete communion you have with us, and hopes for a healing of unity.

Or that many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the RCC such as the written Word of God; it doesn’t mean what it clearly says?
Yes, that is what it says, and it also laments the incomplete communion you have with us, and hopes for a healing of unity. We didn’t separate from anyone.

Or that many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the RCC such as the written Word of God; it doesn’t mean what it clearly says?

And what do we get in return for the olive branch we extend? It would be uncharitable of me to make a list.

I have already said that the RCC is part of the Body of Christ and as such is spoken about in Scripture. Some parts of the RCC are clear in Scripture while some parts are not, such as the selling of indulgences.

One never could “buy” indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “I*t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded.” *

The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.
Myths about Indulgences

Had Scripture been more widely available and read more by those it was available to, perhaps the laity would not have been exploited.

No, the printing press made the scriptures widely available catering to the demands of a new middle class developed in Europe and the bible was in German. The common language was Latin, a language known by anyone who was educated enough to read. Luther’s Protestant Bible came out 1520 and before his Bible the Catholic Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian and English, there was exactly 104 editions in Latin; 38 editions in German language, 25 editions in Italian language, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world.

However, the RCC looks much different today than the church started on the day of Pentecost.

There is only one woman mentioned by name at Pentacost, and we still hold to that significance. Do you?

 

[kepha1]

I have to partly agree with you.
It is the Church, which teaches, the Church, which sanctifies, the Church, which builds and vitalizes. The Church is not a fruit of the Book but rather the Book is the fruit of the Church.

Hence it is that the Catholic does not say in the first instance, “What does the Book say”? Rather he asks, “What does the teaching Church say”? The Church and the Book say the same thing, and since the Book is in a peculiar sense God’s Word, he will turn to the Book.

However, this is not his ultimate recourse. He has only one ultimate recourse, the Church herself, and the Book is accepted from her hand and with her explanation. The Book is not the proof but only a divine expression in human language of the Church’s teaching.

Over the Book stands the Church, while according to the Reformation conception, over the Church stands the Book. This fundamental vision of the Church causes the Catholic to look to the episcopate for doctrine, because the bishops are the authentic exponents of God’s message to the world.

The Church is an organized visible fellowship. Because it is divine institution and dynamism, the Holy Spirit dwells in it, keeping it alive, keeping it true, and making it grow. The Spirit is the source of the life of the Church, but that life is the life of a body.

The body is made up of many members who are distinguished one from the other by functions for which they have a fixed structure. In the Body, the bishops have the function of teaching and guiding, and this task they perform through the power of the Spirit who transfuses the whole Body, making each member effective in his function.

The Body is one, and so the episcopate is one, and the unity of the episcopate is achieved through solidarity with the prime source of Episcopal power, the Bishop of Rome. In the Catholic vision the pope teaches in the name of the episcopate and the episcopate teaches in the name of the Church and the Church teaches in the name of Christ, and Christ teaches in the name of God.

God —> Christ —> Church —> Episcopate —> Pope (Tradition =+Magisterium=+Scriture)(2 Tim. 3:14, 15, 16)

That is the good news of the Gospel - we have access to the Father because Jesus paid our debt. We no longer have to go through the priestly sacrifice…"

Chapter and verse, please.

and the once yearly high priestly sacrifice;

The Toda (thanksgiving) sacrifice foreshadows the Mass.

but as Hebrews says “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

Gen. 14:18 - this is the first time that the word “priest” is used in Old Testament. Melchizedek is both a priest and a king and he offers a bread and wine sacrifice to God.

Psalm 76:2 - Melchizedek is the king of Salem. Salem is the future Jeru-salem where Jesus, the eternal priest and king, established his new Kingdom and the Eucharistic sacrifice which He offered under the appearance of bread and wine. Psalm 110:4 - this is the prophecy that Jesus will be the eternal priest and king in the same manner as this mysterious priest Melchizedek. This prophecy requires us to look for an eternal bread and wine sacrifice in the future. Please explain how your church fulfils this prophecy and we can compare.

And again in Hebrews “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, know the Lord, for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more.”

Predestination to glory, not to grace. scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

And again in Hebrews “Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

Absolutely.
Sprinkled and washed refers to baptismal regeneration, that same now as it was then.

And so we assemble together with like minded believers in a community believing with a sincere heart what God has promised us in Scripture. And whether there is tens or hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of communities there is still one Body of Christ, one faith (in the blood of Jesus), one baptism( in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins), in the unity of the Holy Spirit (who points us towards Jesus and empowers us with gifts).

Amen.

Peace and let us help those that are in need!

AMEN!!!

 

[twb1621]

After 36 years as a cradle RC; I felt adrift from God. The church up to that point was my focus, but I did not have a consciousness of Jesus. The doing of the rituals of the church had not led me to Jesus in a conscious way. Then I under went a renewal that was centered around Scripture and in so doing, I found Jesus consciousness.

So in spite of doing and being “in the fullness”, I experienced no fullness.
When I centered my life around Scripture, I found the anchor of my soul.

That was 21 years ago. Over this time I have studied many denominations and find that indeed most ignore one or more points of Scripture. But in having my mind renewed in Scripture, I find more questions about why the works of the RCC did not awaken me.
This is my story. It may not be others story, but it is mine. I joined this forum in 2004 because around 2004 I briefly returned to the church. I felt hypocritical because I questioned many things. Still, I pursue my place in the Body of Christ. We have a big God and I think He can shoulder my questions.

I have returned here from time to time but do not have many posts because I find a hostility from some when someone disagrees with the RCC. So I go my way and return from time to time.

Now I understand your style of posting. If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with…a mountain of material. It’s not your fault, it’s the way you have trained.
However, a good Bible rule is - By the mouth of two or three witnesses let every Word be established.

Ar…Ar…Ar… Ok, I am not sure what the “…” means, but it is the true meaning of the message that is important. I know I can be lengthy but when I respond, it must be to all those who sit in the background but do not take part as well. They may not have the knowledge of the scripture verses I refer to… . You have two distinct parts of the whole picture that once you have learned how they fit togather, will astound you and bring you into the intimate embrace of our Savior like you could never imagine. Not that you Are not in a closeness to Him now, but in a way that He will reassure you you are there.

 

[twb1621]

I understand works as taught in Scripture: actions of love that are inwardly motivated by our conversion to (faith in) Christ. What James saw was a selfishness of one Christian to another and called them to account: if they were Christian then there should be acts of love between brethren.

your right, Yes and to all…