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NHInsider
Guest
This is not true - but if it were, would you then support removing from the Old Testament all the other books which are not quoted in the New?
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PJM
Guest
=JJHIII;If the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of truth” and knows the sacred traditions and commandments of God, then do we even really need the Bible?
*** friend, if one were to ask you these two questions, could you [a zillions of others] answer them?
- Name the 10 Commandements
- Now what does God actaully expect from us in obeying these 10 sin catagories? ***
Have I performed my duties toward God reluctantly or grudgingly?
Did I neglect my prayer life? Did I recite my usual prayers?
Did I receive Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin or without the necessary preparation?
Did I violate the one-hour Eucharistic fast?
Did I fail to mention some grave sin in my previous confessions?
Did I seriously believe in something superstitious or engage in a superstitious practice (palm-reading or fortune telling for instance)?
Did I seriously doubt a matter of Faith?
Did I put my faith in danger-without a good reason-by reading a book, pamphlet, or magazine that contains material contrary to Catholic faith or morals?
Did I endanger my faith by joining or attending meetings of organizations opposed to the Catholic faith (non-catholic services, the Communist Party, Freemasonry, “new age” cults, or other religions)? Did I take part in one of its activities?
Have I committed the sin of sacrilege (profanation of a sacred person, place or thing)?
The Second Commandment
Did I fail to try my best to fulfill the promises and resolutions that I made to God?
Did I take the name of God in vain? Did I make use of God’s name mockingly, jokingly, angrily, or in any other irreverent manner?
Did I make use of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s name or another saint’s name mockingly, jokingly, angrily, or in any other irreverent manner?
Have I been a sponsor in Baptism or participate actively in other ceremonies outside the Catholic Church?
Did I tell a lie under oath?
Did I break (private or public) vows?
The Third Commandment
Did I miss Mass on a Sunday or a holy day of obligation?
Did I fail to dress appropriately for Mass?
Have I, without sufficient reason, arrived at Mass so late that I failed to fulfill the Sunday or holy Day of obligation?
Did I allow myself to be distracted during Mass, by not paying attention, looking around out of curiosity, etc.?
Did I cause another to be distracted?
Have I performed any work or business activity that would inhibit the worship due to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, or the appropriate relaxation of mind and body, on a Sunday or a holy day of obligation?
Did I fail to generously help the Church in her necessities to the extent that I am able?
Did I fail to fast or abstain on a day prescribed by the Church?
The Fourth Commandment
(For Parents)
Have I neglected to teach my children their prayers, send them to church, or give them a Christian education?
Have I given them bad example?
Have I neglected to watch over my children, to monitor their companions, the books they read, the movies and TV shows they watch?
Have I failed to see to it that my child made the First Confession and First Communion?
Have I failed to see to it that my children have received the sacrament of Confirmation?
(For Children)
Was I disobedient toward my parents?
Did I neglect to help my parents when my help was needed?
Did I treat my parents with little affection or respect?
Did I react proudly when I was corrected by my parents?
Did I have a disordered desire for independence?
Did I do my chores?
The Fifth Commandment
Did I easily get angry or lose my temper?
Was I envious or jealous of others?
Did I injure or take the life of anyone? Was I ever reckless in driving?
Was I an occasion of sin for others by way of conversation, the telling of jokes religiously, racially, or sexually offensive, my way of dressing, inviting somebody to attend certain shows, lending harmful books or magazines, helping someone to steal, etc.? Did I try to repair the scandal done?
How many persons did I lead to sin? What sin or sins were involved?
Did I neglect my health? Did I attempt to take my life?
Have I mutilated myself or another?
Did I get drunk or use prohibited drugs?
Did I eat or drink more than a sufficient amount, allowing myself to get carried away by gluttony?
Did I participate in any form of physical violence?
Did I consent to or actively take part in direct sterilization (tubal ligation, vasectomy, etc.)? Do I realize that this will have a permanent effect on my married life and that I will have to answer to God for its consequences?
Did I consent to, advise, or actively take part in an abortion? Was I aware that the Church punishes with automatic excommunication those who procure and achieve abortion? Do I realize that this is a very grave crime?
Did I cause harm to anyone with my words or actions?
Did I desire revenge or harbor enmity, hatred, or ill-feelings when someone offended me?
Did I ask pardon whenever I offended anyone?
Did I insult or offensively tease others?
Did I quarrel with one of my brothers or sisters?
Continued on next post
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PJM
Guest
Cont. from Previous Post:
COLOR=“blue”]The Sixth and Ninth Commandments
Did I willfully entertain impure thoughts?
Did I consent to evil desires against the virtue of purity, even though I may not have carried them out? Were there any circumstances that aggravated the sin: affinity (relationship by marriage), consanguinity (blood relationship), either the married state or the consecration to God of a person involved?
Did I engage in impure conversations? Did I start them?
Did I look for fun in forms of entertainment that placed me in proximate occasions of sin, such as certain dances, movies, shows, or books with immoral contents? Did I frequent houses of ill-repute or keep bad company?
Did I realize that I might already have been committing a sin by placing myself in a proximate occasion of sin, such as sharing a room with a person I find sexually attractive, or being alone with such a person in circumstances that could lead to sin?
Did I fail to take care of those details of modesty and decency that are the safeguards of purity?
Did I fail, before going to a show or reading a book, to find out its moral implications, so as not to put myself in immediate danger of sinning and in order to avoid distorting my conscience?
Did I willfully look at an indecent picture or cast an immodest look upon myself or another? Did I willfully desire to commit such a sin?
Did I lead others to sins of impurity or immodesty? What sins?
Did I commit an impure act? By myself, through masturbation (which is objectively a mortal sin)? With someone else? How many times? With someone of the same or opposite sex? Was there any circumstance of relationship (such as affinity) that could have given the sin special gravity? Did this illicit relationship result in pregnancy? Did I do anything to prevent or end that pregnancy?
Do I have friendships that are habitual occasions of sexual sins? Am I prepared to end them?
In courtship, is true love my fundamental reason for wanting to be with the other person? Do I live the constant and cheerful sacrifice of not putting the person I love in danger of sinning? Do I degrade human love by confusing it with selfishness or mere pleasure?
Did I engage in acts such as “petting,” “necking,” passionate kisses, or prolonged embraces?
(For married people)
Did I, without serious reason, deprive my spouse of the marital right? Did I claim my own rights in a way which showed no concern for my spouse’s state of mind or health? Did I betray conjugal fidelity in desire or in deed?
Did I take “the pill” or use any other artificial birth control device before or after new life had already been conceived?
Did I without grave reason, with the intention of avoiding conception, make use of marriage on only those days when offspring would not likely be engendered?
Did I suggest to another person the use of birth-control pills or another artificial method of preventing pregnancy (like condoms)?
Did I have a hand in contributing to the contraceptive mentality by my advice, jokes, or attitudes?
(On abortion, contraception, sterilization, etc., see also The Fifth Commandment).
The Seventh and Tenth Commandments
Did I steal? How much money? Or how much was the object worth? Did I give it back, or at least have the intention of doing so?
Have I done or caused damage to another person’s property? To what extent?
Did I harm anyone by deception, fraud, or coercion in business contracts or transactions?
Did I unnecessarily spend beyond my means? Do I spend too much money because of vanity, or caprice?
Do I give alms according to my capacity?
Was I envious of my neighbor’s goods?
Did I neglect to pay my debts?
Did I knowingly accept stolen goods?
Did I desire to steal?
Did I give in to laziness or love of comfort rather than diligently work or study?
Was I greedy? Do I have an excessively materialistic view of life?
The Eighth Commandment
Did I tell lies? Did I repair any damage that may have resulted as a consequence of this?
Have I unjustly or rashly accused others?
Did I sin by detraction, that is, by telling the faults of another person without necessity?
Did I sin by calumny, that is, by telling derogatory lies about another person?
Did I engage in gossip, backbiting, or spreading false stories?
Did I reveal a secret without due cause
COLOR=“blue”]The Sixth and Ninth Commandments
Did I willfully entertain impure thoughts?
Did I consent to evil desires against the virtue of purity, even though I may not have carried them out? Were there any circumstances that aggravated the sin: affinity (relationship by marriage), consanguinity (blood relationship), either the married state or the consecration to God of a person involved?
Did I engage in impure conversations? Did I start them?
Did I look for fun in forms of entertainment that placed me in proximate occasions of sin, such as certain dances, movies, shows, or books with immoral contents? Did I frequent houses of ill-repute or keep bad company?
Did I realize that I might already have been committing a sin by placing myself in a proximate occasion of sin, such as sharing a room with a person I find sexually attractive, or being alone with such a person in circumstances that could lead to sin?
Did I fail to take care of those details of modesty and decency that are the safeguards of purity?
Did I fail, before going to a show or reading a book, to find out its moral implications, so as not to put myself in immediate danger of sinning and in order to avoid distorting my conscience?
Did I willfully look at an indecent picture or cast an immodest look upon myself or another? Did I willfully desire to commit such a sin?
Did I lead others to sins of impurity or immodesty? What sins?
Did I commit an impure act? By myself, through masturbation (which is objectively a mortal sin)? With someone else? How many times? With someone of the same or opposite sex? Was there any circumstance of relationship (such as affinity) that could have given the sin special gravity? Did this illicit relationship result in pregnancy? Did I do anything to prevent or end that pregnancy?
Do I have friendships that are habitual occasions of sexual sins? Am I prepared to end them?
In courtship, is true love my fundamental reason for wanting to be with the other person? Do I live the constant and cheerful sacrifice of not putting the person I love in danger of sinning? Do I degrade human love by confusing it with selfishness or mere pleasure?
Did I engage in acts such as “petting,” “necking,” passionate kisses, or prolonged embraces?
(For married people)
Did I, without serious reason, deprive my spouse of the marital right? Did I claim my own rights in a way which showed no concern for my spouse’s state of mind or health? Did I betray conjugal fidelity in desire or in deed?
Did I take “the pill” or use any other artificial birth control device before or after new life had already been conceived?
Did I without grave reason, with the intention of avoiding conception, make use of marriage on only those days when offspring would not likely be engendered?
Did I suggest to another person the use of birth-control pills or another artificial method of preventing pregnancy (like condoms)?
Did I have a hand in contributing to the contraceptive mentality by my advice, jokes, or attitudes?
(On abortion, contraception, sterilization, etc., see also The Fifth Commandment).
The Seventh and Tenth Commandments
Did I steal? How much money? Or how much was the object worth? Did I give it back, or at least have the intention of doing so?
Have I done or caused damage to another person’s property? To what extent?
Did I harm anyone by deception, fraud, or coercion in business contracts or transactions?
Did I unnecessarily spend beyond my means? Do I spend too much money because of vanity, or caprice?
Do I give alms according to my capacity?
Was I envious of my neighbor’s goods?
Did I neglect to pay my debts?
Did I knowingly accept stolen goods?
Did I desire to steal?
Did I give in to laziness or love of comfort rather than diligently work or study?
Was I greedy? Do I have an excessively materialistic view of life?
The Eighth Commandment
Did I tell lies? Did I repair any damage that may have resulted as a consequence of this?
Have I unjustly or rashly accused others?
Did I sin by detraction, that is, by telling the faults of another person without necessity?
Did I sin by calumny, that is, by telling derogatory lies about another person?
Did I engage in gossip, backbiting, or spreading false stories?
Did I reveal a secret without due cause
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Crumpy
Guest
In other words, do we need the revelation of God? Yes, I think so. I don’t know what else would take its place. We wouldn’t have the “pillar and bulwark of truth” without the Bible, for example.If the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of truth” and knows the sacred traditions and commandments of God, then do we even really need the Bible?
Just curious,
JJ
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gtrenewed
Guest
PJM, what was all that about? Are you proving we need the bible?
Romans 3:20-22 “because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the law cones the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnesed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;” verse 28 says"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law"
Your example only proves we are sinners, no one can keep what you posted but faith in Jesus Christ delivers us from death into life in the Spirit.
This is the good news of the Gospel, Jesus Christ perfect by the law, took our punishment for us. Why would you post the law (of sin and death) and not the good news of the Gospel?
That is why we need the bible.
Can you answer my questions from my post above?
Romans 3:20-22 “because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the law cones the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnesed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;” verse 28 says"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law"
Your example only proves we are sinners, no one can keep what you posted but faith in Jesus Christ delivers us from death into life in the Spirit.
This is the good news of the Gospel, Jesus Christ perfect by the law, took our punishment for us. Why would you post the law (of sin and death) and not the good news of the Gospel?
That is why we need the bible.
Can you answer my questions from my post above?
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NHInsider
Guest
One but not the only one. And do not assume that there must be a verse for every truth.
partly yes and yes, partly (Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition. So are many other documents.)
It is not a discreet body of information with defined parameters such as the “secret knowledge” of the gnostic heresy. Is is the faith entrusted to and passed down by the apostles, a faith that is alive and active and grows and responds to the world into which Jesus sent them with the promise of the Holy Spirit Who would teach them what they would need to know.
“small t” tradition is everything from May processions to birthday cake. Some traditions are associated with the faith and some are not. Many are cultural. Many come and go over the generations. But they are not Doctrine.
Many councils have deliberated over questions that involve Sacred Tradition. These range from, for example:
“Must new Christians be circumcised?” Council of Jerusalem. Decision: no.
“Is Jesus fully Human and fully Divine, or was He a unique Human, or an Expression of God, or what?” Council of Nicea. Decision: Fully Human and Fully Divine.
“What about the Holy Spirit?” Council of Constantinople. Decision: also Divine, proceeds from the Father (note - later amendation to add “and the Son” by the Western Church is part of the split between Catholic and Orthodox)
“Were the Divine and Human united in Jesus, or separate?” Council of Ephesus. Decision: completely united - so indivisible that it is appropriate to call Mary the Mother of God.
“Which books of early Christian writings may be proclaimed as the Word of God in the liturgy?” Council of Carthage (among others). Decision: list of 27 books we all accept now, including both Hebrews and Revelation, very controversial, and not including the Shepherd of Hermas, widely accepted as Scripture among Christians before that time.
and so on, down through the ages as various issues and challenges arose.
You might find this essay useful.
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PJM
Guest
SINCERE THANKS for asking:thumbsup:
I posted this information for all of the following GOOD NEWS PROVEABLE reasons:***
By Dying and Rising from the Dead Jesus effected our Redemption, NOT our salvation. In other words, He reopened the gates of heaven, that had been locked form the Orginal Sins of Adam and Eve. Salvation is biblically proveable to be a process, where Jesus, because it is His Divine Will, insist on our cooperation.
Matt.5: 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt.19: 17 "And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **
** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **
** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
It is my friend “Good News” ONLY if we know what it says; If we know what it means, and THEN ACTUALLY APPLY IT TO OUR LIVES.
The Bible spacks clearly and precisely about two diferent types of works. “works of the law” which reference the 613 rule expanded Jewish commands. And Good Works [James chapter 2 fo example], that encompass the New Commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
The Good works merit grace, the works of the Law, while prudent for a lot of reasons, do not.
Love and prayers,
Pat
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RedBert
Guest
Wow as a Protestant I can’t wait to use that for Sola Scripura or “Scipture interprets Scripture”
THANKS!
M
Masters_Servant
Guest
That is an interesting perspective and one I have never seen. Read the bible, but don’t believe because it is the Bible. The reality is you don’t believe it because, as the Bible teaches, you have no capacity within yourself to believe the Bible.
This actually adds to the veracity of Scripture because it doe as what it says and means what it says and you are living proof and for that i am grateful to God for demonstrating this truth, but on the other hand I pray Jesus will remove the veil of blindness for the sake of your soul.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
“Could we get along without it? I suppose so.” How anyone could make a statement such as this is beyond Christian understanding; I did see the post statement used as an example, but the implication of such a statement is profound.
As a side note and somewhat off topic; so i will be brief. The extra books were allowed by the Catholic church to be used as either inspired or just as devotional until the reformation when it became official. This was purely a result to refute arguments against certain teachings of the Church 9ie praying to saints); so you are misleading by leaving out important parts of the historical record. But you cannot admit what you know I say is true in this open forum.
Irregardless anything that contains error was not from God and the people which allowed it were not inspired by God, something we all agree on. As I said; that is a bit off the topic and for another thread to get into further discussion of the historical facts.
In this day; most people who call themselves Christians when asked if the bible is completely without error would say no and this is across all denominational lines; it is not only a judgment from God, but a lack of leadership among the pastorial ranks within Christianity.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
Now you are back peddling from your previous claim, which in turn supports my assertion. Then you jump right back to your original position. Can’t argue nor debate with someone that has it both ways.
Traditions are of men and the Bible is of God. Gods word came way before any tradition was even thought of. John 1:1 makes this perfectly clear.
Catholicism is based on tradition more than Scripture; so I expect the answer you have given. Reading through the CCC you can clearly see the mixture almost throughout as an example.
I’m not knocking Catholicism; it is a Christian based religion with many many followers and many traditions.
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Masters_Servant
Guest
Again another lapse of historical context; some of these councils are “regional” and not universal, such as Trent was. Changes the overall picture. But you already know all this so there is noting to debate when one covers the context.
I am done with this thread; it lacks integrity as I see it and this is suppose to be open and honest discussion, not to mention it has little to do with the topic.
Enjoy the party!
M
mary1173
Guest
:slapfight:
:slapfight:
The works and words that the Pope come directly from God…God speaks through the Pope., not man. God inspires and puts into words the written documents from which our church teaches. The Pope is infaillable in his actions, words, and deeds. They all come from God speaking through him, acting through him, and dwelling within him. The paper on which the words of God are displayed are man made, but to say that the words therein are from man and man alone denies God’s presence in our lives. Personally I think there are those who prefer to cause strife than to come here to actually learn about scripture and what God’s purpose for us is when we go to church, partake in the mass and try to extend our Christian good will and fellowsjip to one another…Quit fightong about the things you do not understand and ask Fr. Serpa some of these questions!!!It is sad reading these responses, all lack knowledge our this alleged “the Church”. If the Church was built on Jesus, who has all authority, and you claim this is his church, why are there points in the Bible that Catholics choose to not follow. And “those people” who decided what is canonized and not was me mocking your future response of “who are 'those people.” Again, these books contradict Scripture, plain as that. It baffles me how intertwined the reasoning is for these extra 7 books, you guys don’t even know what you’re saying. It would take me days to address how many wrong points that have been made against my last post, all of which were false accusations, words put in my mouth, spin doctoring, really immature attempts at explaining anything. And you know for a fact these Vatican documents etc. are all man-made, don’t flatter yourself. Men choose to not do what is right, 2 Tim 3:16 comment, because their tradition overshadows the Bible. Please research why you do anything without consulting the Bible. Good luck.
:slapfight:
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NHInsider
Guest
? You really think there is a proof-text verse for every truth? Go for it. Start with proving the Divinity of Jesus - that only took 300 years for the ECF to resolve, because of the potential to interpret different verses differently.Wow as a Protestant I can’t wait to use that for Sola Scripura or “Scipture interprets Scripture”
THANKS!
Or, of course, the fundamental question of “Which books are inspired?” Find a verse to answer that question and you’ll be well on your way.
Honestly . . . .
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NHInsider
Guest
If you’ve abandoned the thread this may be pointless, but would you mind providing one scrap of evidence for your assertions of history?
2 Thessalonians 2:15: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle”
1 Corinthians 11:2: “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you”.
Of course in the Protestant translations the word paradoseis is translated as “teachings” in those verses, although it is precisely the same word that is translated as “traditions” in Mark 7.
Scriptue is part of Sacred Tradition. Anything that is in Scripture is based on Tradition, otherwise you wouldn’t have it. God did not send a Book.
Gee thanks. You’re welcome for the 1500 years of preservation of the Truth.
C
Cristian_B
Guest
It is interesting what you say. But 6+6=12 and 12 is the number of leadership, the Church and God’s authority. Interesting, isn’t it? A crown with 12 stars. Crown represents leadership. Jesus had 12 disciples that were leaders of the church and they were the first church; there were 12 tribes of Israel which represent God’s people and God’s people are the Church. In Revelation 12:1, the 24 elders and 144,000 are multiples of 12. The New Jerusalem city has 12 foundations, 12 gates 12 thousand furlongs; and the new Jerusalem will be the capital of the universe. There is a tree with 12 kinds of fruits 12 times a year eaten by 12 times 12,000 or the 144,000. Interesting, isn’t it? If you go like this, it means that this 66 book version of the Bible has and is God’s authority since 6+6=12. But you don’t believe this, do you?
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Cristian_B
Guest
So the Pope is not a man? Since he is not a man, I suppose he isn’t a sinner, but he does sin. How can that be?
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NHInsider
Guest
interesting observation and Scripture does use 12 to point to the Tribes of Israel and the Apostles - but this is hardly the basis for determining which books are in Scripture – certainly not a basis cited by any of those responsible for eliminating the books that were dropped to get to 66. You would still need to figure out WHICH 66 books to keep.
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Cristian_B
Guest
I never said that this tells us how many books should be in the Bible. But my point was that if you say that it is from man since it has the number 6, then I say that since it has two 6, which is 12, and as you see, it often represents God’s authority of authority in general. Should we discredit the Bible because it because the number of books is 66 or should we keep it because 6+6=12? No. There are other things more relevant and important about the Bible and there are lots of other reasons that are more interesting than this number thing.
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NHInsider
Guest
Ah, sorry - I missed the connection, and in fact I think we agree on this point.
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