Do we need to be obedient, since we can ask for forgiveness?

[Julian0404]

It is NOT valid at any time NOT to obey GOD, but we do it all the time, all day long, in every facet of our lives. Marriage and birth control. Fornication vs. marriage. Electing abortion supporting candidates etc. etc.

So, are we deluding ourselves straight into hell by relying upon forgiveness - always - and therefore, continue in our comfortable sin life; or are we truly the “lost generation” as to the true teachings and knowledge of the Catholic faith. Were we some “great experiement” as Scott Hann alludes to, not fully educated in the truth given our ignorance in defending and living out our faith?

 

[C_Elizabeth]

Excuse me? We need to do the best we can all the time. If we are aware of an area of ignorance, we have an obligation to search out the truth. There are lots of sources, but you can always start with the Catechism. If we slip up. we need to go to confession as soon as possible.

As my brother says, you can only blame your parents for your problems until you are old enough to know better. If you feel you weren’t properly taught, then go learn it on your own. That’s what I did.

 

[Pat_Payne]

I think you’re preceding from a partially false premise there. God is forgiving to those who are repentant – who want to be obedient, but whom through weakness, fall to temptation. That’s different from someone who wants to “game the system” by saying – " I can do whatever I want, all I have to do is go to Confession and it’s forgiven."

He knows we’re not perfect. Obedience is in the trying, not always in the succeeding. We offend him when we sin, true, but he is not going to reject and damn us when we try and fail and sincerely want to do better. It is when we give up on him, or worse, think we’re so clever that we can play him like a fool that what you’re describing comes into play.

 

[jbarbaretta]

Excuse me? …

I don’t think you are in conflict with the previous statement as much as you think you are. I think the point the original post is trying to make is that we cannot rely on our ignorance.

The good news is that we can only be held culpable for things that we know are wrong or should have known are wrong. If we truly did not know and truly had no way of finding that truth then we are not culpable.

The bad news is that given the information age in which we live, there is very little to which we can claim absolute ignorance.

I would love to claim that I am a model Christian, but I am not. I struggle with sins as much as anyone else, maybe more than others - I have not way of knowing, only God does. I do know that if I truly try to follow His teachings and go to confession to earnestly confess my sins and transgressions, then I can confidently rely on our Lord’s mercy when it comes time for my judgement. That is my hope!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

We need to strive to be obedient, that’s certain.

Knowing right and wrong is a lot more complex than the fact that we live
in the “information age.”
We can still royally screw up and sincerely misunderstand information that we are given.
From personal experience, I was given some information some time back,
misinterpreted it entirely, but sincerely, and made terrible mistakes over and over and
over again because of that sincere misunderstanding.
Many innocent people could have been destroyed because of that, too.
And I wouldn’t hurt anybody on purpose for anything in the world.
But I know, and GOD KNOWS, that I did not do anything erroneous intentionally.
Therefore, subjectively speaking, I am not guilty of any sin whatsoever.
In fact, I had been praying to God week after week to REMIND ME
to do those very things which I only much later found out were gross mistakes.
Ironically enough, I never forgot to do them, though I won’t dare say that God actually reminded me to commit errors!!!
Even though I am subjectively not guilty of any sin at all, I have still asked God to forgive me the objective guilt, and to stop the Demons from attacking my conscience about it (which they are doing viciously, let me tell you), and have asked God to GIVE ME the means to make reparations, as it is materially impossible for me to do so without miraculous Divine assistance.
So, we must always strive to be obedient.
If unintended errors can cause disasters, then be sure
that deliberate disobedience can most definitely also bring calamities.
Strive to obey.
Love,
Jaypeeto4

 

[Julian0404]

Our obedience is 99.9% insufficient as our human natures are contrary to GOD’s plan of free will in which we chose HIM all the time, every time - as we don’t !

That is what makes “Saint’s”, they have through great trial, tribulation, sacrifice, fasting and prayer thus “moved” their free will to chose GOD all the time, every time - they have found the motivation to pursue the presence of GOD in all things, at all times. They have trained themselves to be seekers of GOD.

But, in the process of becoming a Saint, they - like us - found refuge and foundation in GOD’s forgiveness, without which, they would have been lost - like us - but they recovered and continued to persevere inflicting sometimes harmful wounds to their bodies, just to help focus themselves away from non-GOD thoughts and activites.

Where can we go today, to learn “how to” train our obedience toward GOD?

So, while we make the journey which our life requires, I contend that GOD’s forgiveness is our strength, our source of faith and our primary foundation of living the Christian life, not our obedience - which is sadly lacking.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

When I was a new Catholic (and in some ways, I still am, even 12 years after confirmation), I was shocked and appalled at some of the severe penances the Saints practiced on themselves. I thought that they were somehow unaware of just how MUCH Christ’s Blood had atoned for and how MUCH that Blood is worth to pay for sin.

But that’s not it at all.
They would whip themselves, and almost starve themselves with severe fasts,
because they realized, at least in their own particular cases,
just how MUCH the flesh wars against the Spirit, so they would try to
bring it under subjection in part by such penances, coupled with sometimes
entire nights spent in prayer.

St. Gerard Majella used to have one of his order’s brothers beat his bare back
with a chain until the blood poured out of him.
I admire his courage, but if I was the brother, I could never beat on somebody like that.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4

 

[jbarbaretta]

Where can we go today, to learn “how to” train our obedience toward GOD?
.

Well, as you pointed out – to the saints. That is why the Church goes through the trouble of identifying and declaring saints. So that we can have examples of holy men and women whom we can identify in some way that will be an example and someone we can turn to in prayer to help us.

Take a look at St Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises. It is the rare person today that can separate themselves from the world for 30 days, but there are several "mini’ versions floating around.

Read St John of the Cross or St Teresa of Avila.

St Therese is wonderful in her simplicity.

St JoseMaria Escriva teaches a way of sanctifying ordinary life.

There are many places to go to “learn” What separates the Saints (with a capital S) from the rest of us. In a nutshell, they learned how much God loved them and allowed it to affect them so deeply that it changed their outlook on everything. Out of love for God, not just mere obedience, they learned to put God first in their lives. Often times with great struggle and hardship. Although every saint would say we must be obedient to God, none were obedient because they weren’t sure about asking for forgiveness. They were obedient because they loved God and , as with anyone that we love, putting the person we love ahead of ourselves is the natural thing to do, even if it is uncomfortable for us.

I think the focus on obedience is misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, we must be obedient to God. But, if we learn to love God, rather then “train our obedience toward God” then the obedience is a natural result of wanting God’s will more than our own.