Do we really have a choice?

[Ruthie]

“no one receives the gift of God but through Mary”
“no creature ever obtained any grace from God except through the dispensation of this Kind Mother.”

There are three ways of taking statements like these.

1. They mean that we have Jesus because Mary gave birth to Him. In other words, she wasn’t just some random female God picked out of a hat, but was specially chosen out of all women; without her saying “Yes” to God, we wouldn’t have Jesus.
2. They are hyperbole - “over the top” praise.
3. The writers are mistaken.

And sometimes combinations of two of the above.

There is a lot of over the top stuff written about Our Lady. And I’m pretty sure that there may be a few Catholics who take it seriously and think (mistakenly) that we can’t get anything from God unless we ask Mary first. They’re wrong.

No, God doesn’t say, “Go ask your Mother.” We can pray to Him any way we want. When we ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for us, we are asking them to pray to God for us. I could go on at length about this, and have done so in other posts.

Here’s the relevant bit of what the Catechism says about Mary.

970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

To paraphrase:

Mary’s divine motherhood does not make her in any way equal or superior to Jesus. Only Jesus could have given her this role. Her good influence comes from Him, depends on Him, and her power comes entirely from Him. No created being can be equal to the Incarnate Word. However, He works through His creation; His ministry is worked in various ways by His ministers and faithful, and works only in cooperation with Him. Mary cannot overrule Him. She can only mediate through His mediation.

I hope you can experience Mary the way I and others have. She can and does bring us graces - graces given us by the Lord.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[hays1122]

There are three ways of taking statements like these.

1. They mean that we have Jesus because Mary gave birth to Him. In other words, she wasn’t just some random female God picked out of a hat, but was specially chosen out of all women; without her saying “Yes” to God, we wouldn’t have Jesus.
2. They are hyperbole - “over the top” praise.
3. The writers are mistaken.

And sometimes combinations of two of the above.

There is a lot of over the top stuff written about Our Lady. And I’m pretty sure that there may be a few Catholics who take it seriously and think (mistakenly) that we can’t get anything from God unless we ask Mary first. They’re wrong.

No, God doesn’t say, “Go ask your Mother.” We can pray to Him any way we want. When we ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for us, we are asking them to pray to God for us. I could go on at length about this, and have done so in other posts.

Here’s the relevant bit of what the Catechism says about Mary.

970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

To paraphrase:

Mary’s divine motherhood does not make her in any way equal or superior to Jesus. Only Jesus could have given her this role. Her good influence comes from Him, depends on Him, and her power comes entirely from Him. No created being can be equal to the Incarnate Word. However, He works through His creation; His ministry is worked in various ways by His ministers and faithful, and works only in cooperation with Him. Mary cannot overrule Him. She can only mediate through His mediation.

I hope you can experience Mary the way I and others have. She can and does bring us graces - graces given us by the Lord.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

Yes thank you.
I will continue praying for the Lord’s guidance in this.
I’m so glad for this site and people like you who understand my questions and answer them so clearly.

 

[hays1122]

Miss Echo:

I think this is where the desire of God and free choice are at odds.

Some Judas, a Judas, needed to play the role. Therefore perhaps not this Judas we are throwing stones at now would, but another would have taken his place.

Andy

Exaclty my point. Judas had no real choice. God had a plan.
The same thing with Saul. God saved Saul,the one who became Paul the great apostle.
There are other verses where God talks about knowing people before they were even born.
I pray and ask the Lord to save my soul but sometimes I wonder if I’m not one of “his chosen ones”.
I am hanging on faith.Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 5:1"Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

 

[po18guy]

Exaclty my point. Judas had no real choice. God had a plan.
The same thing with Saul. God saved Saul,the one who became Paul the great apostle.
There are other verses where God talks about knowing people before they were even born.
I pray and ask the Lord to save my soul but sometimes I wonder if I’m not one of “his chosen ones”.
I am hanging on faith.Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 5:1"Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

I tend to believe that Judas did, indeed, still have free will. I reject strict predestination, as it is counterscriptural. Judas had a heart which was capable of change, but he deliberated his options and made a choice. He chose to serve man instead of God.

As to faith, we are absolutely bound to have it if we seek redemption. However, your faith MUST lead you to good deeds, or your faith is dead. There are numerous scriptural references for this. You cannot honestly expect to be welcomed into the Kingdom with dead faith. John wrote, in the Apocalypse, that we will be judged on what we have done. Paul also mentions this early in Romans. Notice nothing about what we believed at the judgment? However, what we have done must have a strong foundation in that which we believe.

Faith alone (sola fide) is a corruption of Christian doctrine which reduces love to its lowest common denominator. This is written of in scripture, in the case of those who will cry out His Name, but He declares “I do not know where you are from”. They had faith, since they called on the Lord. But he knew that their hearts were not circumcised. I do not think any of us wants to hear the Lord say this!

 

[Miss_Echo]

Miss Echo:

I think this is where the desire of God and free choice are at odds.

Some Judas, a Judas, needed to play the role. Therefore perhaps not this Judas we are throwing stones at now would, but another would have taken his place.

Andy

Hmmm… I don’t see that as being at odds whatsoever!

If “a” Judas was needed to play the role, and “any” Judas would do… then doesn’t it stand to reason that this “any” Judas would still have free will? Again I go back to my original point - that God knows in advance what any one of us will or won’t do. He simply takes it from there, so to speak. He knew that “the” Judas would act as he did. It still doesn’t mean he predestined him to do so.

Same with Saul. Perhaps another man in the same circumstances would have run away screaming and thought himself delusional. God knew “the” Saul wouldn’t do that - he knew exactly how Saul would respond. Still doesn’t mean it was predestined, does it?

 

[Miss_Echo]

From the Catechism…

*1730 - God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

1731 - Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.*

 

[AndyF]

… then doesn’t it stand to reason that this “any” Judas would still have free will?

The problem arises with the effect of the other choice, it nullifies redemption. If God willed himself to play the odds, then the possibles are Judas will or won’t betray. The sacond is a real problem if a plan is envisioned. It would call for some “tweaking” to ensure the right scenerio plays out.

Again I go back to my original point - that God knows in advance what any one of us will or won’t do. He simply takes it from there, so to speak.

If a robber gets killed in a robbery, and we can fortell his act, is it morally OK to go with a knife and wait for the event so we can remove his eyes for a donation to someone in need?

Could it be that somehow we know there is something owing the robber, has there is a “use” of his action.? He still causes the desired effect which makes it possible for a good to result.

didn’t predestine him to do so

Taken alone where probability can play it’s part, there is no problem. Taken with desiring the effect someone will end up on the wrong side. Probability can only guarantee the desire may occur.

God’s desire makes a betraying Judas inevitable and because of this fact this is no longer an exercise in probability, of true or false, choosing white or black, right or wrong.

Lets assume we have this particular Judas in front of us. He chooses to change vocation and move on. What now?
God is wrong because this was not the “particular” Judas.?

The only way free choice can play a part is if we set aside probability, and in this case God already knows, therefore what we are seeing is opportunism(your “taking it from there”), has He merely needs to wait for the event of this sure thing. Knowing the event and which Judas will sin, He can pre-imput the sin to him which leaves a bitter taste somehow.

Curious though. Since we know that God needs a redeemer, doesn’t praying for THE Judas (BC people of course) go against what God wills since we already know it in prophesy? Assume it is granted and Judas receives the grace to see the light, is he ready to scrap the redemption plan on principle? If not then any prayer for Judas is destined to be refused.

And it goes on… .

Andy