Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[Paddy_Walker]

I’m not being flippant.
However, it strikes me that you’d have better luck asking those of the North American continent to return their allegiance to the original countries of France, Spain and England.

To most you would be asking them do do just about the same thing. It isn’t a matter of returning to Jesus. It is a matter of returning to a political entity to them. Most do not see it as being more than that.

Then education is the key. Religion is without bounds, it is a-political. We belong in one body, there is not two Holy Spirits, only one, The First One.

 

[JonNC]

I agree with this. I would also add that I could conceivably change my mind if we ended up with a liberal takeover of the synod. Knowing that Christ will ever save His bride, if such a thing came to pass in the LCMS I would have to think that is a kick in the pants saying “start swimming.”

Yes. I alwayss mention the positive reasons. this would be a negative one - being pushed out of Lutheranism because it abandons the confessions. In that case, “Lord to whom should we go?”

Jon

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by Carlan
True, our separated brothers today cannot really be held culpable for the disobedience of their forefathers, however I believe all of them have a responsibility to look back in history and look into the truth of their Apostolic heritage. Someone once wrote," to read the early Church Fathers is to stop being Protestant." Peace in the complete Truth will advance forward the unity our dear Lord Jesus hopes for all His flock. Peace, Carlan

Cu, you are unfair to yourself to close your mind to the early Church Fathers. I am talking about that authority which was handed down to them from the Apostles after the death of John, that is, the commission given to the Apostles by Christ to pass on to their successors His revelation , his complete Truth.
After all there was hundreds of years of their teaching before the Christ’s Church put it all together into the now Bible, the Gospel and letters.
I am reminded so often of what I read in the old testament years ago about being careful not to count on our own understanding. Peace, Carlan

 

[joe370]

I was on a Protestant site in which a Protestant quoted a whole bunch of Church Fathers to defend sola scriptura. Instead of reading the Church Fathers, I prefer reading letters and gospel accounts by the Apostles.

Hey Christian Unity, not one early church father supports sola scriptura. They definitely support scripture, obviously, but not the idea that scripture alone is the Christians sole rule of faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, and I’m sure you can’t speak for all of them. Let’s see what God does on the issue.

CU,

Any Catholic speaking truths of the deposit of faith speaks for all Catholics.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

Any Catholic speaking truths of the deposit of faith speaks for all Catholics.

It seems to me if Catholics were clear what was the actual “Deposit of Faith”, there would not be a need for Catholic Answers Forums. It is because Catholics are confused to what are official teaching of the Church, we have sites like CAF.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems to me if Catholics were clear what was the actual “Deposit of Faith”, there would not be a need for Catholic Answers Forums. It is because Catholics are confused to what are official teaching of the Church, we have sites like CAF.

Well, not only confused. Ignorant. Uninformed.

Catholics are abysmally poorly catechized.

And thanks to sites like CAFs things are improving greatly!

 

[lax16]

If the Catholic Church has stayed united, why was there a schism, and further dvisions?

 

[lax16]

I agree with this. I would also add that I could conceivably change my mind if we ended up with a liberal takeover of the synod. Knowing that Christ will ever save His bride, if such a thing came to pass in the LCMS I would have to think that is a kick in the pants saying “start swimming.”

Why not become Catholic and help heal the division between the East and the West?

 

[CopticChristian]

It seems to me if Catholics were clear what was the actual “Deposit of Faith”, there would not be a need for Catholic Answers Forums. It is because Catholics are confused to what are official teaching of the Church, we have sites like CAF.

CU,

I live in confusion however I am called to transform my mind and renew it…I believe after listening to an audio of the USA catechism, going on my 6th visit, listening to Augustine confessions, abandonment to Divine Providence, Imitation of Christ, thinking of Dark night of the Soul I see a glimmer of hope

 

[guanophore]

• Photo of Billy Graham and President John F Kennedy

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

I don’t think that Catholics or Protestants ever wanted division in the first place. Protestants wanted purity of practice, and Catholics wanted purity of doctrine, but we all want a pure life in Jesus Christ.

The Reformers wanted to purge what they saw as corruption in the Church leadership. In doing so, they changed the doctrines of Jesus Christ and invented some new ones. They did not realize that men are always in need of Reform, but the Teaching of the Apostles does not need reform.

We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

We don’t really “agree” on those creeds, since the Reformers changed the definitions of some of the words used in them to mean things different than those who wrote and adopted them as articles of faith.

The majority of their content we do agree, but it is disingenuous to say we don’t have differences in the way the words are interpreted.

Do you believe Catholics and Protestants have the same God? If so, can both Christian groups share the gospel to those who do not know God through Jesus Christ?

Yes, but we understand Him differently. Yes, I think both can share the Gospel with those who do not know God, but as you have noted previously, we have mutually exclusive doctrinal distinctives, so Gospel preserved in the CC from the Apostles is significantly different than many modern “gospels”.

I don’t think Protestants believe they are disobedient to God by not submitting to the Magisterium.

This is one good example of those diffferent gospels. Catholics received from the Apostles that the reference to the church in the Creeds as Catholic is defined as those who are united with the Bishops, the successors of the Apostles. These are those who have been appointed by God to shepherd the flock. Scripture expressely forbids us to be disobedient to them. And yet, Protestants believe that they can reject those to whom the Gospel was entrusted, and still hear God.

It seems Protestants and Catholics have a much bigger agenda than just making our society and world a better place. It seems we both share the common goal of obedience to the Great Commission in how we understand the Christian Faith according to our Christian conscience. These are just thoughts to think and ponder on.

These things are not an “agenda”, but I do agree with you.

 

[lax16]

JonNC - here’s a couple of links regarding the Mormons and Martin Luther.

Citation please. I can’t imagine why they would.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=52ae48bf641ab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

blog.mrm.org/2010/04/martin-luther-and-mormonism/

 

[MotoCatholic]

I pray for unity very often. The vast majority of my friends are various forms of protestants. The majority of them are beautiful people and beautiful Christians - trying hard to live a life following Christ. They despise the Catholic church. They may not all admit it, though some do, but they seem to exist to 1) love Christ and 2) denigrate the Catholic church - and not always in that order. I know that sounds a little strong, but I see it all the time.

Do they have wild misunderstandings of the Catholic church - yes. Do they care to hear my “clarifications?” Not really. Do we have great discussions about loving Christ, helping others, growing in faith…absolutely - they’re marvelous. But then we get back to “what’s with you Catholics and confession…” “you realize Mary wasn’t a virgin?” “why do Catholics worship statues…” the same old stuff. I’m often simultaneously filled with hope, and then heartbroken.

My wife often says “just imagine what we could do working directly together.” Amen!

 

[guanophore]

That IS what they wanted.
May I remind you that ML never wanted or intended to separate from the church. He was forced to leave. It just went down hill from there. All events should have been anticipated if the hierarchy at the time wasn’t so self serving, and greedy. But then that is family room chair quarterbacking. I am very glad things changed.

I agree with you that ML never intended to separate from the Church. However, no one forced him to embrace ideas that set him at enmity with the faith passed down to us from the Apostles.

I also agree with you that the Reformation was started, and fueled by, the self serving and greed of persons in positions of authority that chose not to follow the Gospel. Rebellion, however does not fix this kind of corruption.

Martin Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church excommunicated him. And as far as I understand it, the Catholic Church hasn’t fixed Martin Luther’s problems, which is why there will be no unification with Rome. The core of Lutheranism is: Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura. The Catholic Church Denys all 3 of these. That is why the Lutheran Church will not unify with Rome. Now, could any of this change? Absolutely with God all things are possible.

The CC has a duty to preach and teach the Truth. She must respond this way to obstinant heresy. If you think that the CC has not “fixed Luther’s problems” perhaps you need a read of the Joint Declaration?

Leo can be a rascal and it does not matter. We are not Leo-therans.

I think it DOES matter. I think that the Reformation, in large part, was precipitated by a lack of holiness among Catholic clergy, religious, and politicians. The rebellion was largely against temporal and secular authority being abused by Catholics. If Catholics had focused on their personal sanctity rather than power and wealth, Luther may have had no complaints to make.

 

[guanophore]

Christendom will never agree on the same final authority for the next 500 years.

This certainly seems like a stubborn and hopeless attitude toward Jesus’ prayer that we all be one. If everyone takes this attitude, then I am sure you are right. Fortunately, Catholics believe in the unitive power of the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts and minds of believers to achieve the unity that God desires. We pray for this in every Mass.

Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants understand that final authority comes from our same God. However, we disagree on how our God reveals His authority and will to His adopted children. Do you believe Christendom should be divided for the next 500 years in the same way that has been for the last 500 years?

If you look at the statement you made at the beginning of this post, you will realize how disingenuous this question really is. You seem to believe that unity can occur when we cannot agree on how God has revealed His authority.This is not the case. Unity comes from adherance to the Truth. Whenever part of the Truth is rejected, wounds to unity occur.

Couldn’t the Eastern Orthodox Church (Great Schism) say something very similar in what you posted about the Catholic Church?

Indeed they can, and they do!

The original Protestant Reformers did not see the reformation as a rebellion; rather, they were being obedient to our God according to their own conscience before God.

Both things are true. Anyone can read the documents penned during the Reformation and plainly see that rebellion was part and parcel of the effort to purify the Church.

All three branches claim that their exclusive beliefs have the equation of 2 + 2 = 4. All three branches are united on the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord… therefore, we already have essential unity to what it means to be Christian. I don’t think anyone denies the other of the name Christian, right?

As far as I can tell, the Orthodox accept Protestants as Chrristians who have unwittingly embraced heresies, in need of evangelization and catechesis.

The Orthodox and Catholics agree on the meanings of the words in the Creeds, where neither agree with Protestants on their new renderings of these words.

 Wow, I leave my office for a few hours and come back to all of this participation!  There are way too many to respond to; therefore, I will respond to the one that I believe is the most significant.

I gotta hand it to you CU, you may have broken some records for the fastest moving threads around here!

Now how can Protestants preach a different gospel, and still remain your separated brethrens?

You stand in the tradition of Apollos. Not knowing the way of God with accuracy does not diminsh your zeal, or the fact that you have been adopted. A rebellious subject of the Roman Pontiff is no less a subject.

What do you think Billy Graham is praying about? Do you think Billy is praying to God to make President Kennedy a Protestant? What do you think President Kennedy is praying about? Do you think John F Kennedy is praying to God to make Billy Graham a Catholic? I’m just throwing it out there for discussion. I’ll try to respond as much as I can, but with all of this activity, I can only respond to the ones that appear the most relevant to the thread topic.

:hey_bud: I’m a guy…

They may have both been praying that America be spared a war with the Soviets.
"ChristianUnity:

Unity would go much farther if we first identified ourselves as Christians, just like the book of Acts reveals.

I agree. what did Prisca and Aquila do when they came across Apollos?

Unfortunately, the church was already being divided in the first century… heck Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy. Others claim to follow Paul; another group followed Peter, and yet another group followed Christ.

No, the Church has never been divided since she was founded by Christ. He cannot be divided. She is Holy and Pure. Granted, people attached to her, or members of her, can suffer divisions. Factions do not cause the whole to disintegrate. The faith is One, the Church is One, the Body is One. Those who engage in divisions create splinters for themselves, and for others, but not the Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

I basically agree with you here, Guanaphore, as well as the fact, when looking at today’s liturgies in many places, that Luther was ahead of his time in regards to wanting more vitality and singing at liturgy.

The great mistake is thinking the Church did not want people to reflect on the Bible. It is not true. Stained glass windows were made that put into art teachings of Scripture, as many could not read. My grandmothers were born around the turn of the 20th century, and it was common for them in the Pacific NW to have only an 8th grade education.

But because of Luther’s mindset, I also do not think he approached other Catholic writings and sanctity regarding it is Christ’s grace that saves us. I mean to say, that I don’t think Luther was ever truly in communion with the Church, partly because of his temperment, as well as the corruption, and the Church leadership being unwilling to dialogue with him.

 

[lax16]

I think it DOES matter. I think that the Reformation, in large part, was precipitated by a lack of holiness among Catholic clergy, religious, and politicians. The rebellion was largely against temporal and secular authority being abused by Catholics. If Catholics had focused on their personal sanctity rather than power and wealth, Luther may have had no complaints to make.

Luther can make complaints. St. Francis of Assisi had complaints. What is the difference?
Both witnessed abuse of authority by clergy, both reacted totally differently.

What would we be saying about Luther today if he had worked for change within the Church and stayed obedient to Her despite the problems? Saint Luther would be my guess.

 

[joe370]

Luther can make complaints. St. Francis of Assisi had complaints. What is the difference?
Both witnessed abuse of authority by clergy, both reacted totally differently.

What would we be saying about Luther today if he had worked for change within the Church and stayed obedient to Her despite the problems? Saint Luther would be my guess.

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe Protestants and Catholics believe in the same God, but preach a different gospel?

Yes. How different that Gospel is depends upon which parts, and how much of the Apostolic faith has been jettisoned. Some communities very much, some only little.

Are you speaking about Reformation Day which is celebrated by certain Protestant churches? I think only a few denominations even knows about Reformation Day.

Yes, Reformation day has been celebrated here on these threads also, rather triumphantly, it seems.

As you probably know, most modern day Protestant Christians (including pastors) are very unknowledgeable about church history. The lack of knowledge of church history is one of the reasons I believe modern day Protestants have a hard time with fellowshipping with Catholic siblings. Many modern day Protestants don’t even understand what justification by faith alone is all about; therefore, they have no knowledge about Reformation Day.

Yes, to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant, John Cardinal Henry Newman said. It was certainly true for me.

I think you are right that there are many that have very little information about the Reformation. You, on the other hand, do. Yet, you have not ceased to protest…

I think the first century church in Sacred Scripture began with multiple interpertations of the gospel in which the Apostle Paul wrote Romans and Galatians to help direct the church in regards to gospel errors. It is interesting that Paul rebuked Peter on a gospel issue in the book of Galatians.

Yes. God commissioned His Apostles to be the custodians of the Gospel message. They were entrusted and empowered with it, and protected by the HS from falling into error. That is why they taught that the true Church is the one that is organized around their successors, the Bishops.

It is interesting that you would perceive that Paul rebuked Peter on a “gospel issue” in Galations. This is not true. Paul rebuked Peter over his hypocrisy, because he was not acting according to HIS OWN TEACHING. There was nothing wrong with Peter’s gospel, but there was something wrong with Peters failure to abide by it.

This is one of the earliest references we have to the fact that infallibility does not equate to impeccability.

 

[joe370]

I think the first century church in Sacred Scripture began with multiple interpertations of the gospel in which the Apostle Paul wrote Romans and Galatians to help direct the church in regards to gospel errors. It is interesting that Paul rebuked Peter on a gospel issue in the book of Galatians.

And yet Peter, a fallible man, still managed to teach and write infallibly via the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in terms of faith and morals, as per all Catholics and non-Catholics.