Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[lax16]

Martin Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church excommunicated him. And as far as I understand it, the Catholic Church hasn’t fixed Martin Luther’s problems, which is why there will be no unification with Rome. The core of Lutheranism is: Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura. The Catholic Church Denys all 3 of these. That is why the Lutheran Church will not unify with Rome. Now, could any of this change? Absolutely with God all things are possible.

Martin Luther’s ideas went far beyond what had been taught for 1500 years - why should the Catholic Church have listened to his ideas on all these things?

Didn’t Jesus promise to lead His Church until the end of time? Even through times of trouble?
Why did ML need to take the helm?

Martin Luther was a little “off” in some of his writings suggesting a very unbalanced individual. Since Lutheranism is a church started by Luther shouldn’t he have been a very holy man, not just someone with courage and a desire for change?

 

[JaKael02]

Martin Luther’s ideas went far beyond what had been taught for 1500 years - why should the Catholic Church have listened to his ideas on all these things?

Didn’t Jesus promise to lead His Church until the end of time? Even through times of trouble?
Why did ML need to take the helm?

Martin Luther was a little “off” in some of his writings suggesting a very unbalanced individual. Since Lutheranism is a church started by Luther shouldn’t he have been a very holy man, not just someone with courage and a desire for change?

Luther is an amazing person of study. Scholars tend to agree his ideas initially were fair, balanced, and meaningful…however…overtime, as he continued to buttheads w/ Cardinals, Bishops over theologgy, Luther’s ideas became increasingly distant from what historically was taught.

Luther thought he was reforming the Church, and he initially never thought that he was creating a schism, only later did it become evident a schism was occuring when the Catholic Church did not reform into his views (same w/ Zwingli).

Overall, their was a reformation. One within the Church structure, and one outside of the Church structure.

 

[JonNC]

Look what happens within*** 5 minutes*** of this thread being started, let alone 500 years.

Best post of the thread.

We are all rather busy, it seems to me, blaming the other side from what happened 500 years ago - “Luther was a rascal”, says the Catholic, “Leo was a rascal”, says the Lutheran - when the answer to that is simple - both sides were to blame, triumphalist rhetoric on both sides notwithstanding.
Meanwhile, Church leaders in both the Lutheran and Catholic community seem to be more interested in where we are now, and how can unity result in the future. I pray their efforts are more fruitful than ours. And how can they not be, since they don’t seem to be pointing the finger at the other and claiming, “you’re the rascal”.

Jon

 

[lax16]

Best post of the thread.

We are all rather busy, it seems to me, blaming the other side from what happened 500 years ago - “Luther was a rascal”, says the Catholic, “Leo was a rascal”, says the Lutheran - when the answer to that is simple - both sides were to blame, triumphalist rhetoric on both sides notwithstanding.
Meanwhile, Church leaders in both the Lutheran and Catholic community seem to be more interested in where we are now, and how can unity result in the future. I pray their efforts are more fruitful than ours. And how can they not be, since they don’t seem to be pointing the finger at the other and claiming, “you’re the rascal”.

Jon

Leo can be a rascal and it does not matter. We are not Leo-therans.

 

[JonNC]

Leo can be a rascal and it does not matter. We are not Leo-therans.

Sorry. I’ve missed your point.

Or, maybe you missed mine.
Jon

 

[lax16]

Sorry. I’ve missed your point.

Or, maybe you missed mine.
Jon

No, I didn’t miss your point.
If Luther was a rascal, as is obvious by some of his very disturbing writings, then why follow him?
If Leo was a rascal, as is obvious by some of his behavior, does it matter as much? We don’t follow a pope, or a man, or a prophet. We follow Jesus Christ and His Church.

The old saying “who started your church” really makes a lot of sense sometimes.

ps - I meant to add a to my last post

 

[Christian_Unity]

Leo can be a rascal and it does not matter. We are not Leo-therans.

Unity would go much farther if we first identified ourselves as Christians, just like the book of Acts reveals. Unfortunately, the church was already being divided in the first century… heck Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy. Others claim to follow Paul; another group followed Peter, and yet another group followed Christ.

Acts 11:26
and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - 1 Cor 1

 

[JonNC]

=lax16;10118160]No, I didn’t miss your point.

I hope not.

If Luther was a rascal, as is obvious by some of his very disturbing writings, then why follow him?

We, like you, follow Christ and Him crucified.

If Leo was a rascal, as is obvious by some of his behavior, does it matter as much? We don’t follow a pope, or a man, or a prophet.

It doesn’t matter much if the Vicar of Christ on Earth is a rascal?

We follow Jesus Christ and His Church.

And so do we.

The old saying “who started your church” really makes a lot of sense sometimes.

Christ started our (yours and mine) Church. Like Leo, Luther was but a man.

ps - I meant to add a to my last post

Understood.

My point, again, is we can look backward at the obvious warts of men and blame the other, or we can look to our leaders today (and I can’t see how anyone can say Pope Benedict XVI or President Matthew Harrison are rascals), with our hopes and prayers that they will be led by the Holy Spirit into unity.

Jon

 

[Stilldreamn]

My point, again, is we can look backward at the obvious warts of men and blame the other, or we can look to our leaders today (and I can’t see how anyone can say Pope Benedict XVI or President Matthew Harrison are rascals), with our hopes and prayers that they will be led by the Holy Spirit into unity.

Jon

Amen, Amen, Amen.

 

[batman1973]

It’s always awesome how Jon can put things together like that. Thank you for posting that and help keeping me humble.

 

[lax16]

we, like you, follow christ and him crucified.

 

[JonNC]

=lax16;10118438]
Then follow his church too.

No, it doesn’t. Jesus promised his church would survive in spite of rascals, including the imperfect Saint Peter. That is why Jesus showed us that in spite of Peter’s humanity, he would still lead his Church.

It seems to me that it is important. The Bishop of Rome is exceedingly important to the entire Church Militant. And while I agree that the Church will survive a rascal, one damages the Church.

Pardon my lack of ecumenism, but every time I drive by a Mormon ward (I live in Utah) I am not thinking that Joseph Smith had great ideas and we should follow him.
And the little protestant church on the corner with the anti-catholic pastor acting as pope to his 50 person congregation, I am not thinking that maybe that guy is on to something.

Me neither.

Frankly, I am fed up ( and admittedly need to work on it). I need to work on this warm fuzzy idea of getting along and looking forward.

Pope Benedict would be a good role model in this way.

Unfortunately, I am an early church enthusiast who likes to look backwards to understand how this Church, with all of her imperfection, has managed to survive in spite of people like Luther, Joseph Smith, bad popes, etc.

Fine. there’s lots of Lutherans who do the same thing - look backwards. And the division continues.

I need to work on my warm fuzzies. I used to be the warmest, most inclusive person attending protestant bible study and mormon get-togethers.
Now, I see a bunch of people following someone who thought they knew better on this point or that and splintering the Church in a million pieces.

No. We all need to work on Christ’s call, that we all be one. the fact that there are those out there who are not interested shouldn’t sway the desire to see that occur.

I hate to see that the early Christians were fed to the lions for fighting heresy and here we sit wanting it to get better by just getting along.
Phooey. They stuck their necks out and so should we.

Agreed.

Where does it end? Who do we follow? Why is Martin Luther any more right than any other protestant minister in any of these zillions of little churches around town? Or Joseph Smith?

Why not read what the Lutheran Confessions say, and see if it in any way resembles Joseph Smith?

Jesus wanted one church and he promised to stay with it and he did and still does.

Agreed.

Yes, that is true. However, too many people are ignoring the history because they don’t want to face the facts.

Do you believe you’re presenting facts in such a way that will interest people?

Lutherans follow Luther. I honestly can’t understand it.
I am not trying to be rude, just honest. Why him? He made his point, he made some not so great ones as well, so let it be that. Why follow a church with HIS name on it?

How did his name “get on it”?

This is not an attack on YOU. It is a question I ask of all people in any other Church.
If Jesus promised to stay with his Church until the end of time, then why abandon it?

I didn’t take it as one. We have not abandoned His Church.

Jon

 

[lax16]

It seems to me that it is important. The Bishop of Rome is exceedingly important to the entire Church Militant. And while I agree that the Church will survive a rascal, one damages the Church.

Of course the Pope is important, but he is human and we don’t fall when there is one that is weak. It doesn’t give another person the right to start their own church.

Fine. there’s lots of Lutherans who do the same thing - look backwards. And the division continues.

I am not looking backwards to the beginnings of Protestantism, but to the beginnings of Christianity.
There is a big difference.
My comments are not dividing the Church. That is ridiculous.

No. We all need to work on Christ’s call, that we all be one. the fact that there are those out there who are not interested shouldn’t sway the desire to see that occur.

Christ already did the job. He already made the call. 2,000 years ago.

Why not read what the Lutheran Confessions say, and see if it in any way resembles Joseph Smith?

Does it matter if they resemble each other in their teachings? They still became charismatic leaders that told people the Catholic Church was/is wrong.

Do you believe you’re presenting facts in such a way that will interest people?

Please elaborate.

How did his name “get on it”?

Do you call yourself a Lutheran? I assume people who are Lutherans are called that because they follow Luther and his teachings?

I didn’t take it as one. We have not abandoned His Church.

You are separated from the One True Church established by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. Luther broke away. Didn’t he abandon it when he started teaching his own ideas?

 

[JonNC]

=lax16;10118566]Of course the Pope is important, but he is human and we don’t fall when there is one that is weak. It doesn’t give another person the right to start their own church

There had been a string of them that were weak. My point is the personal failings of people 500 years ago is history.

I am not looking backwards to the beginnings of Protestantism, but to the beginnings of Christianity.
There is a big difference.
My comments are not dividing the Church. That is ridiculous.

Ok. I stand corrected.

Christ already did the job. He already made the call. 2,000 years ago.

Agreed. And we must respond, as was a distinguishing mark of Vatican II.

Does it matter if they resemble each other in their teachings? They still became charismatic leaders that told people the Catholic Church was/is wrong.

Of course it matters. Si there any possibility of reconcilation between the CC and the LDS? How many LDS churches has Pope Benedict visited? Clearly, his view of Luther is strikingly different than yours.

Please elaborate.

You yourself asked for pardon regarding your lack of ecumenism. My simple point is that the era of ecumenism we are in was started by Vatican II. I’m just asking you to think about the contrast.
Look, I suspect, given your description of where you live, you probably put up with a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric. I just ask that you don’t let that tarnish the positive words of your communion these last 60 years.

Do you call yourself a Lutheran? I assume people who are Lutherans are called that because they follow Luther and his teachings?

No. It was started as a slur by opponents of the Lutheran reformers, in a way to that of the term “Roman Catholic”. In both cases, members of the communion took it on. Luther stridently opposed the name.

You are separated from the One True Church established by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Depends on what you mean. We’ve always considered ourselves part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So, we are in the one True Church. we’re not denominationalists. Is there currently a separation between us? Yes.

Luther broke away. Didn’t he abandon it when he started teaching his own ideas?

He was excommunicated. And we believe our teachings are that of the historic Church. So, no, we haven’t abandoned His Church.

From the Augsburg Confession:

Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.

Jon

Jon

 

[JustaServant]

My point, again, is we can look backward at the obvious warts of men and blame the other, or we can look to our leaders today (and I can’t see how anyone can say Pope Benedict XVI or President Matthew Harrison are rascals), with our hopes and prayers that they will be led by the Holy Spirit into unity.

Jon

Great post Jon.
Its so easy for us to look back into history with a kind of arrogance thinking that we are somehow sooooo superior and sophistocated. Both secular and sacred.
Last time I checked, we all have warts. And the older I get, the more warts I see.
Division is a funny thing. We can argue theology and Church authority from now until doomsday. But ultimately circumstances dim the reasons for that division. Luther and Leo were products of their time, as are we. I have a feeling as time goes on, and the common enemy of us all rears its ugly head in this country and the rest of the world, that division will be healed. Out of necessity.
Funny how a common enemy can do that.

 

[Reuben_J]

What do you think Billy Graham is praying about? Do you think Billy is praying to God to make President Kennedy a Protestant? What do you think President Kennedy is praying about? Do you think John F Kennedy is praying to God to make Billy Graham a Catholic? I’m just throwing it out there for discussion. I’ll try to respond as much as I can, but with all of this activity, I can only respond to the ones that appear the most relevant to the thread topic.

Hard to really know for sure. Kennedy was a politician and Graham a religious zealot.
Kennedy being a Catholic President, it would be an advantage politically for him to be seen with Graham, a Protestant. Graham, OTOH a fiery evangelist, it is not so wrong to believe if he wanted to convert Kennedy who was not exactly a very religious person.

 

[benjohnson]

I have a feeling as time goes on, and the common enemy of us all rears its ugly head in this country and the rest of the world, that division will be healed. Out of necessity.
Funny how a common enemy can do that.

Amen!

 

[777rak]

Instead of encouraging Protestants to learn more about the Catholic faith, why don’t we encourage them to learn more about Luther, who he really was and what he really believed. That might just point them in the direction of Catholicism!

Good point to bring up. I mean how come all the Protostent Churches celebrate the day he protested.

 

[robwar]

Wow, I leave my office for a few hours and come back to all of this participation! There are way too many to respond to; therefore, I will respond to the one that I believe is the most significant. I’ve seen Catholics use Galatians 1 against Protestants; I’ve seen Protestants use Galatians 1 against Catholics.

Now how can Protestants preach a different gospel, and still remain your separated brethrens?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Gal 1

What do you think Billy Graham is praying about? Do you think Billy is praying to God to make President Kennedy a Protestant? What do you think President Kennedy is praying about? Do you think John F Kennedy is praying to God to make Billy Graham a Catholic? I’m just throwing it out there for discussion. I’ll try to respond as much as I can, but with all of this activity, I can only respond to the ones that appear the most relevant to the thread topic.

:hey_bud: I’m a guy…

your thread was about Christian unity and you used as an example some old picture with what looks like at a probable prayer breakfast. You are reading too much into it. since one is dead and the other rather old, I would image that they were praying a simple grace before they were to eat and it is nothing more than that. the picture does show them at a table with dishes and cups to eat. No one is going to read into it what you are trying to get as responses and it is highly doubtful that they were praying for each others conversions or for Christian unity. you started out asking about 500 years of disunity between Catholic and Protestant but now want us to comment on some old picture of Kennedy and Billy Graham saying grace together.

 

[Christian_Unity]

your thread was about Christian unity and you used as an example some old picture with what looks like at a probable prayer breakfast. You are reading too much into it. since one is dead and the other rather old, I would image that they were praying a simple grace before they were to eat and it is nothing more than that. the picture does show them at a table with dishes and cups to eat. No one is going to read into it what you are trying to get as responses and it is highly doubtful that they were praying for each others conversions or for Christian unity. you started out asking about 500 years of disunity between Catholic and Protestant but now want us to comment on some old picture of Kennedy and Billy Graham saying grace together.

Do you believe Protestants and Catholics believe in the same God, but preach a different gospel?