Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[Chris_Etzel]

The source that I quoted is secular which are always the best sources to quote when discussing theological issues like these. I don’t think you can find a secular source that does not link the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church as being part of the overall 34,000 denominational mix. Remember the thread topic… one Christian Faith that is divided. The Geat Schism was a bad divide too which still applies today.

Yes, I retract my last statement about the Schism because it’s off topic. I apologize. This has been covered in other threads. I apologize.

 

[CatherineOH]

NO problem, though I look at the whole a little differently.
I think even mention of the schism is still on topic as what makes a Protestants … That is Protest ant… which also includes all the schisms…making your statement not only on topic, but a lot closer to the topic than many of the other posts. …And as a pps I agree on the bible quotes above, which is why I brought alternate text meaning much the same to the table.

 

[SteveVH]

NO problem, though I look at the whole a little differently.
I think even mention of the schism is still on topic as what makes a Protestants … That is Protest ant… which also includes all the schisms.

The Catholic Church does not consider the Orthodox as Protestants but rather one of the two lungs of the one Church. This is completely different than those faith traditions that grew out of the reformation.

 

[CatherineOH]

Very true. but they still split… because they protested
and that was my point.
It doesn’t change the Anglicans from being part of the protest-ant group whether talking about the ones who are still Protestant or the ones in Communion as the Orthodox Byzantine etc etc etc are.

more like 24 lungs of the church.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I think for a movement toward unity, we first need to define Christendom. What are the essential minimum doctrines which you would consider Christian in this thread? I personally use the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed for that purpose. For instance, I would not consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in our discussion on Christian Unity.

 

[SteveVH]

I think for a movement toward unity, we first need to define Christendom. What are the essential minimum doctrines which you would consider Christian in this thread? I personally use the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed for that purpose. For instance, I would not consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in our discussion on Christian Unity.

I find it interesting that anyone would be looking for the “minimum doctrines” which would be considered Christian. As a Catholic I would have to say that the Eucharist; the real presence of Christ, would be a minimum, as it is the source and summit of the Christian faith. Now, admittedly there are a few (the liturgical Protestant faith traditions) that believe in the real presence in varying degrees, but this is just an example of a wide separation between the CC and most Protestant faith traditions. It is a doctrine that can never change, even in the slightest way.

The bottom line is that no Catholic doctrine can be modified, even in the interest of unification. The Church has no authority to change revealed truth. As others have said or implied, there will be no unification until there is a complete return to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. There was wide spread disapointment after Vatican II because of expectations that Catholic doctrines would be changed to be more in line with mainstream Protestantism. And nothing could have been further from the truth.

 

[SteveVH]

Very true. but they still split… because they protested
and that was my point.
It doesn’t change the Anglicans from being part of the protest-ant group whether talking about the ones who are still Protestant or the ones in Communion as the Orthodox Byzantine etc etc etc are.

more like 24 lungs of the church.

If one is in communion with the Church then one is not Protestant.

 

[Chris_Etzel]

I think for a movement toward unity, we first need to define Christendom. What are the essential minimum doctrines which you would consider Christian in this thread? I personally use the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed for that purpose. For instance, I would not consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in our discussion on Christian Unity.

The problem with “essential minimum” is that it indicates that one believes man has heaped up a bunch of stuff on top of “mere” Christianity and that through dialogue you can strip away these excess things and get to the total spiritual creaminess, avoiding the chewy chunks of degradation.

But in reality what “essential minimum” has meant in the discussion between Protestants and Catholics is “What are you Catholics willing to discard from Tradition and traditions to be more like us Protestants so we can all get along”.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth. They are the original Christians, with Apostolic succession all the way back to Peter. True Christian Unity will happen when everybody comes home. Whether that’s a return to the Apostolic Church on earth, or in heaven , that’s when unity will become a reality. No amount of coddling those who don’t like infant baptism or marian doctrine or whatever else they disagree with is going to unite anybody. It will simply lengthen the time it takes to bring about the unity.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I find it interesting that anyone would be looking for the “minimum doctrines” which would be considered Christian. As a Catholic I would have to say that the Eucharist; the real presence of Christ, would be a minimum, as it is the source and summit of the Christian faith. Now, admittedly there are a few (the liturgical Protestant faith traditions) that believe in the real presence in varying degrees, but this is just an example of a wide separation between the CC and most Protestant faith traditions. It is a doctrine that can never change, even in the slightest way.

The bottom line is that no Catholic doctrine can be modified, even in the interest of unification. The Church has no authority to change revealed truth. As others have said or implied, there will be no unification until there is a complete return to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. There was wide spread disapointment after Vatican II because of expectations that Catholic doctrines would be changed to be more in line with mainstream Protestantism. And nothing could have been further from the truth.

I think the CCC already made an acknowledgement of what the Catholic Church defines as being Christian. In regards to Protestants, a valid baptism in a Triune formula would receive the title of separated brethren. Remember, the thread topic is unity in the body of Christ; do you really want division for another 500 years? Submitting to the Magestrium and embracing the Eucharist belief are not requirements of being Christian according to my understanding of the official Catholic doctrine. Christian unity is acknowledging our differences and understanding them, without requiring others to believe just like you.

 

[SteveVH]

I think the CCC already made an acknowledgement of what the Catholic Church defines as being Christian. In regards to Protestants, a valid baptism in a Triune formula would receive the title of separated brethren. Remember, the thread topic is unity in the body of Christ; do you really want division for another 500 years? Submitting to the Magestrium and embracing the Eucharist belief are not requirements of being Christian according to my understanding of the official Catholic doctrine. Christian unity is acknowledging our differences and understanding them, without requiring others to believe just like you.

Well we can do that right now. In fact that is what is done every day on CAF; acknowledging our differences, at least hoping to understand them, and no one is required to believe what anyone else believes. Sorry, that doesn’t sound like unity to me. We can certainly be charitable and respectful toward each other, but unity requires much more than that. We are to believe as one body; the mystical body of Christ.

And I am sorry, but rejection of the Eucharist is rejection of the Church. The Catholic Church would not exist if not for the Eucharist.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Well we can do that right now. In fact that is what is done every day on CAF; acknowledging our differences, at least hoping to understand them, and no one is required to believe what anyone else believes. Sorry, that doesn’t sound like unity to me. We can certainly be charitable and respectful toward each other, but unity requires much more than that. We are to believe as one body; the mystical body of Christ.

And I am sorry, but rejection of the Eucharist is rejection of the Church. The Catholic Church would not exist if not for the Eucharist.

There are 2.2 billion Christians in this world, and we are discussing unity among all of them, in comparison to separation and disunity based on our particular theological distinctive. Do you consider Protestants baptized in the triune formula to be separated siblings in Christ with the same Heavenly Father? If you believe that unity in this world requires submission to the Magestrium and receiving the Eucharist, then in regards to the thread topic, it seems you don’t mind having the same division for the next 500 years. It is not a solution to say that all 2.2 billion Christians need to become Catholic for unity in this life.

 

[Carlan]

With the protestant reformations, they all made a choice to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church in favor of their own interpretations. Had they left it at “let’s clean up the corruption,” it wouldn’t have been a big deal; but instead they decided “hey, let’s change the meanings of some of this, and take out some books that disagree with us, so that the Bible will suit our interpretation of it.”

That’s the underlying logic behind every protestant sect, ever.

I believe your post, we understand reform should have happened only within the Church, instead the disobedience of a few opened up what we have today in the Protestant world , thousands upon thousands of denominations still protesting with each other let alone the fact about the original disobedience of their forefathers with the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.
I would like to recommend to all those still protesting to go out and buy a copy of the teaching authority’s book, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read up on what the true Church you separated from 500years ago handed on to you.And passing it on will go a long way in stopping the division going forward.
Peace to all! Carlan

 

[777rak]

Well we can do that right now. In fact that is what is done every day on CAF; acknowledging our differences, at least hoping to understand them, and no one is required to believe what anyone else believes. Sorry, that doesn’t sound like unity to me. We can certainly be charitable and respectful toward each other, but unity requires much more than that. We are to believe as one body; the mystical body of Christ.

And I am sorry, but rejection of the Eucharist is rejection of the Church. The Catholic Church would not exist if not for the Eucharist.

Very true! Good point to bring up, the same goes for everything else Mary, Priest confession etc…

A person needs to have 100% or more faith in the Catholic Church.

 

[Chris_Etzel]

There are 2.2 billion Christians in this world, and we are discussing unity among all of them, in comparison to separation and disunity based on our particular theological distinctive. Do you consider Protestants baptized in the triune formula to be separated siblings in Christ with the same Heavenly Father? If you believe that unity in this world requires submission to the Magestrium and receiving the Eucharist, then in regards to the thread topic, it seems you don’t mind having the same division for the next 500 years. It is not a solution to say that all 2.2 billion Christians need to become Catholic for unity in this life.

You are right. 1.4Bil are already Catholic. We’re about 800Mil shy of a return to Unity.

Protestantism is not an invention of Christ, but an invention of men. The rejection and protest has to end. The changes that needed to occur within the Church happened. There’s no reason to protest anymore. Until everybody gets we’re separated brethren.

 

[CatherineOH]

If one is in communion with the Church then one is not Protestant.

ahhh. I see where you are coming from… well, when the split er, schism. first occurred they were not in communion with each other. so they were protest ant.

 

[maxdouglas402]

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• Photo of Billy Graham and President John F Kennedy

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

I think the first step to Christian unity is to fully unite the Catholic Church (Easter/Western/ etc. Rite), and then the other Christian denominations will follow.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I think the first step to Christian unity is to fully unite the Catholic Church (Easter/Western/ etc. Rite), and then the other Christian denominations will follow.

I’m not sure if I follow? How would a unity with the east Orthodox and west Catholic make Protestants want to follow such a movement?

 

[hn160]

I think the first step to Christian unity is to fully unite the Catholic Church (Easter/Western/ etc. Rite), and then the other Christian denominations will follow.

I believe that the easiest group to come to terms with Rome would be the confessional Lutherans because of their adherence of the Lutheran Confessions. The Lutherans of the LWF bring a lot of baggage such as women and homosexual ordination, open communion, and communion with Reform Churches including the Episcopal Church. The biggest stumbling block are the Decrees of the Council of Trent, Papal infallibility, and the Primacy of the Pope among some other things.
The Angelican Church brings a lot of baggage from John Calvin and their theology is a mile wide and a inch deep because they include the High Church ( Catholic Type) and Low Church ( Methodist Type ) and everything in between.
I as an LC-MS Lutheran would love to see fellowship with Rome but first we have to honest in our disagreements before we see what we agree on.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I believe your post, we understand reform should have happened only within the Church, instead the disobedience of a few opened up what we have today in the Protestant world , thousands upon thousands of denominations still protesting with each other let alone the fact about the original disobedience of their forefathers with the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.
I would like to recommend to all those still protesting to go out and buy a copy of the teaching authority’s book, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read up on what the true Church you separated from 500years ago handed on to you.And passing it on will go a long way in stopping the division going forward.
Peace to all! Carlan

I owned a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church about 15 years ago, and read quite a bit of it. I no longer have them, but can find the CCC on-line. I’m not still protesting just like most Protestants. We simply believe differently without protesting with those siblings who believe differently. For unity within the Christian family of God of adopted sinners, I don’t think we have to agree on everything, do you? I think it is strange for you to say that I separated from the Catholic Church, considering I am only 51 years old and never belonged to the Catholic Church in the first place. The Reformation occured 500 years ago, and most non-Catholic Christians had nothing to do with it.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

I owned a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church about 15 years ago, and read quite a bit of it. I no longer have them, but can find the CCC on-line. I’m not still protesting just like most Protestants. We simply believe differently without protesting with those siblings who believe differently. For unity within the Christian family of God of adopted sinners, I don’t think we have to agree on everything, do you?

To be in unity with us then yes.