Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[rfournier103]

rfournier103, I back up your post 100%.

The author of communion is Christ. To encounter authentic communion in Christ, we must totally renounce ourselves, including our way of looking at things, and to become obedient to Him through the Church.

Our self-will is the greatest obstacle to growth in Christ.

Thank you for the support! And I agree with you too, by the way. It is not always easy, but we must try. That’s all God wants from us… to try our best for Him.

 

[MotoCatholic]

What you have written is true of the extreme edge of fundamentalist Christianity, which is often anti Catholic.

We have in the recent posts been challenging some of the assertions in the Lutheran LCMS statement on why they did not sign on the join agreement on Justification. These are Christians who we have a lot in common with, and I think I can speak for everyone here in saying the LCMS members at Catholic Answers are some of the most respected and respectful members here. We have to be careful not to lump all Protestants together.

I agree, and you raise an important point. One of the friends I speak of is Lutheran. And I think he falls into the category of “have never even considered” the truth claims of the Catholic church. He’s just repeating what he has heard. He is a beautiful person, beautiful Christian, and would make an amazing Catholic! And in one sense he’s a perfect example: if he considered, then admitted that the claims of the Catholic church are indeed true, and considrered with an open mind how and why his church was founded, how could he remain Lutheran? That’s a scary scenario for anyone. Unless truth, scripture, and sacred tradition matter more than personal bias.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m been busy doing the holidays stuff with the family and have fallen behind on all of the postings. Just a quick question: have we resolved the 500 year division and have become on in Christ in heart and mind yet?

 

[SteveVH]

I’m been busy doing the holidays stuff with the family and have fallen behind on all of the postings. Just a quick question: have we resolved the 500 year division and have become on in Christ in heart and mind yet?

Have you started your RCIA classes yet?

 

[guanophore]

Do they attend an independent Baptist Church? Some Protestants and some Catholics are way too narrow.

According to what standard?

I don’t think anybody is pushing for unity in which the different communities will attend and worship at each other’s churches.

But that is what unity means, to a Catholic. The 24 Catholic Rites all can attend and worship at one anothers’ churches. We dont’ have “doctrinal distinctives”. We share one faith one baptism.

It is time for Christendom to…

Is this a prophetic Word from God that you claim to have received and have come here to announce?

Has something changed, that you think it was not “time” before now?

They thought it was time when they convened Vatican II.

It is time for Christendom to learn from the past

This from the one who refused to read the Early Church Fathers???

It is time for Christendom to learn from the past and promote Christian unity between Christian branches and denomination that historically fought each other in the heretic wars.

What are the “heretic wars”?

 Internet communication is the perfect tool to promote unity within orthodox essentials as framed within the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed.

It is true that the internet does enable communication to an extent never before experienced. However, your definition of “orthodox essentials” is different from ours because you are using redefinitions of the terms created during the Reformation. So long as we define the terms differently, we will not be able to use the creeds as a standard.

We don’t have to be in bondage from what happend in the past, rather let’s learn from it as we move forward as a body of Christ.

I agree. What about actualy going back to what the Apostles believed and taught, which we can see in the ante-Nicean fathers? What about going back to the definitions that were used by those that wrote the creeds? Instead of continuing off course from the Reformation, lets go back to what all Christians together believed prior to the Great Schism.

 

[guanophore]

To divide the body of Christ and be disobedient to John 17 for the sake of unbelievers to believe based on the line of sand regarding Cornelius’ point of regeneration, or if I read Moby Dick… is kind of silly and ridiculous.

CU, we are not divided because you refuse to answer our questions. The fact that you do not answer is just a symptom or expression of the fact that we are divided. We are diviided because you embrace “a different gospel”. You seem to want us to abandon the doctrines of the faith that were handed down to us by the Apostles, something they expressely commanded us not to do.by the Apostles not to do.

In Jn. 17 Jesus is not asking or commanding us so that we are “disobedient”. He prays to the Father that we may be One so that the world may know Him. Unity is not something that we can “make” happen. We can unite with one another in service to the world, but unity of Spirit comes from clinging to the Truth. So long as we have a different “truth”, unity will not occur.

We first need to correctly understand what other Christian communities officially believe, respect each other and our differences, and look toward the much bigger picture of John 17.

I agree that it is our work to correctly understand our differences and to be charitable with one another. I also agree that we need to look toward the much bigger picture. When we are divided against one another, it impairs our ability to manifest Christ to the world.

When unbelievers look to the dark history of Christianity… including the evil heretic hunting where Christians on all sides killed each other over theological differences…

I think this answers my question above about the “heretic wars”. I think you are confused about the history of the faith. You are referring to a period of time when theological distinctives were joined to political systems and temporal power.

The fact that we are not killing one another, however, does not make those theological differences any less serious.

then you have to wonder if the unbeliever has a valid reason to not believe. Hypocrisy of the Christian on all fronts dims the light of the gospel of God.

Oh I don’t wonder at all! I think the visible Church in the world can be a very poor source of light and salt. Indeed, hypocrisy and sin does dim the light.

That comment makes no sense to me.  The truths in those creeds are God's truth that are neither Protestant or Catholics in nature.

I can understand why this might not seem to make sense, because you may not even realize that the meanings of the words are different for you than they are for those who composed the creeds. They are very Catholic in nature, just like the NT is Catholic. Written by, for, and about Catholic faith. When one tries to remove the writings from their context (the Catholic Church) how they are understood changes drastically.

They are confessional creedal truths just like Jesus is Lord.

I agree, however, we also have very different understandings of what it means for Jesus to be Lord.

Those creeds are around 1,600 years old and the Protestant Reformation is 500 years old… the math doesn’t figure at all. Again, they are Christian creeds which historic Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians can embrace as one body of Christ.

We can, if we all understand the meanings of the words the same. But we don’t.

You can go to Protestants sites which list those two creeds as part of their confessional statements as a church, or denomination, or a particular Protestant circle like Reformed.

Yes. But the words in them mean something different than those of the authors.

Your comment is very similar when Catholics say that the Bible is a Catholic book. I would disagree with you and say the Sacred Scripture is God’s book of revelation to us (Christians from all branches).

Both things are true. The NT is God’s revelation of Himself through Jesus Christ. It was inspired by the HS, men, moved by the HS, wrote from God. Those men were Catholic,a nd they wrote to Catholics, about Catholic doctrine. Yes, it was secreted, promulgated, compiled and canonized by the CC for the benefit of the whole flock. But those who wrote it understood that there was only One Flock.

 

[guanophore]

What's going on with the current ecumenical movement with the Orthodox and Catholic Church that occurred this month?  I don't think the Catholic Church is requiring the Orthodox Churches to submit to the Catholic Magestrium for movement toward unity between the two churches.

The Orthodox are already in unity with us. We share 7 sacraments, valid Holy Orders and apostolic succession. They have the full canon of scripture, and they embrace the Apostolic Teaching that the Church founded by Christ is that which surrounds and supports the validly ordained bishop. The Orthodox share a similar form of authority, and function with the same kind of magesterium. The mutual excommunications have been removed. Neither is demanding that the other renounce doctrines passed down to them from the Apostles.

What you posted is not going to happen; therefore, you are implying that 500 years of additional division is the only possible outcome.

It is true that there are some who will prefer obstinant refusal rather than following the unifying lead of the HS. I agree that persons who refuse to return to the doctrines of the faith as deposited once for all to the Church by the Apostles will continue in division and separation. I also think that the fruit of that rebellion will be continued fracturing and separating.

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, and I’m sure you can’t speak for all of them. Let’s see what God does on the issue.

This statement reflects a Protestant mindset that is not part of the Apostolic Churches. Individuals do not define the doctrines of the faith, nor do the voices of any of them (or all of them) speaking for or against them make them valid. The Doctrines of the Faith were defined by Jesus, and He entrusted them to the Apostles, who deposited them once for all to the Church.

God will continue to do what He has done, which is to preserve His Holy Bride infallible until He comes to take her home to heaven. He is the Head of His Body, the Church, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements that make the Church infallible.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m been busy doing the holidays stuff with the family and have fallen behind on all of the postings. Just a quick question: have we resolved the 500 year division and have become on in Christ in heart and mind yet?

CU,

This resolution will come when we truly respect and have regards for the beliefs of others. This will come when simple answers can be provided for simple questions.

When was Cornelius regenerated?

Have you read Moby Dick?

 

[JaKael02]

I’m been busy doing the holidays stuff with the family and have fallen behind on all of the postings. Just a quick question: have we resolved the 500 year division and have become on in Christ in heart and mind yet?

Unity - I’m super late to this post. You have a lot to respond to, so don’t respond to mine. But I applaud your effort. I believe we will have unity soon if not already in love.

James

 

[JonNC]

For all the LCMS Lutherans on this forum:

TOWARD TRUE RECONCILIATION
A Comment on Lutheran-Roman Catholic Relations

You may have heard that a declaration was signed that claims to resolve a key difference between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church. What you may not have heard is that more than 45 percent of the Lutheran church-bodies in the world did not support the declaration.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is the oldest and second-largest Lutheran church-body in the United States. We would like to explain why we could not support the declaration.

We rejoice that we have much in common with our fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. Because of what we have in common, we are committed to working toward true reconciliation of our important differences. We could not support the declaration because it does not actually reconcile the difference between us concerning the most important truth of Christianity.

What is that truth? God loved the world so much that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to live a perfect life in our place and to die for our sins. God declares us to be totally righteous and completely forgiven because of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God gives us eternal life as a free gift through trust in Christ alone.

**The Roman Catholic Church teaches that something more than trust in Christ is necessary for us to be saved. It teaches that we are able to merit, through our works, eternal life for ourselves and others. We believe this teaching obscures the work of Jesus Christ and clouds the central message of the Bible.

Therefore, despite what has been reported in the public media about the Lutheran-Roman Catholic declaration, very significant differences remain in regard to how we understand salvation, a fact that the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges.**

We pray for genuine reconciliation of differences among Christians. Our church is intent on working for the day when the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ is proclaimed with one voice. We will continue to work toward true reconciliation.

A Statement from the Office of the President
The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
International Center
1333 South Kirkwood Road
St. Louis, Missouri 63122-7295

I’ve highlighted two paragraphs from the statement.
In the first, youcan see the repsonse by Catholics here to a charge they seem to reject. My response is I get tired here, at times, having to correct misconceptions about what we teach, and it seems of no value for us to characterize what they teach. The JDDJ seems a reasonbly good statement of our beliefs regarding justification. To deny it because we think Catholics interpret it differently doesn’t make sense.

On the second, no one denies that differences remain. That’s obvious. From what I recall, the JDDJ doesn’t even get into imputed/infused righteousness. Why not view it in terms of what it does cover, instead of rejecting it because of what it doesn’t claim to cover?

The central message of the JDDJ is here:

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts. [cf. Sources for section 3].

What on Earth is there here that is contrary to the Christian Book of Concord?

Jon

 

[hn160]

I TOTALLY AGREE. Let’s look at the facts.

~Fact: For 1,500 years EVERY SINGLE Christian believed the same doctrines and dogmas. Even the Roman/Latin Church and the Eastern Churches all agreed on Transubstansiation, Original Sin, Purgatory, etc… (the Schism is a whole different animal than the Reformation) Agreed?

~Fact: Every single Protestant ecclesiastical community is the direct result of someone, somewhere, REJECTING the Roman Catholic Church, it’s authority, MANY of it’s teachings, AND thereby removing their “ministers” from the Apostolic Succession. Agreed?

~Fact: Many Protestants today reject Transubstansiation, the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the 73 book Bible, Original Sin, Purgatory, prayer for the dead, and that His Holiness and all his predecessors are successors to the Chief of the Apostles (Peter, for those of you who do not know). Agreed?

With all that being said… the way I see it, the ONLY path to unity is this:

1. The Roman Catholic Church agrees to welcome back all Protestants with open arms.
2. All the Protestants agree to accept and abide by all doctrines, dogmas, laws, and customs of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestants walked away from Catholicism in a huff. The Catholic Church DID reform itself after the Protestant Reformation. Did the Church need to fix things? Absolutely. I think the Church held up IT’S end of the bargain. It IS time to end the division, and we are waiting… :hug1:

One problem, not all Catholics accept all doctrine, dogmas, laws and customs of the Roman Catholic Church. For example the Kennedy’s, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.

 

[batman1973]

I’ve highlighted two paragraphs from the statement.
In the first, youcan see the repsonse by Catholics here to a charge they seem to reject. My response is I get tired here, at times, having to correct misconceptions about what we teach, and it seems of no value for us to characterize what they teach. The JDDJ seems a reasonbly good statement of our beliefs regarding justification. To deny it because we think Catholics interpret it differently doesn’t make sense.

On the second, no one denies that differences remain. That’s obvious. From what I recall, the JDDJ doesn’t even get into imputed/infused righteousness. Why not view it in terms of what it does cover, instead of rejecting it because of what it doesn’t claim to cover?

The central message of the JDDJ is here:

What on Earth is there here that is contrary to the Christian Book of Concord?

Jon

I posted the quote from the LCMS church in response to your earlier musing on why our synod did not sign it. I find it rather interesting that the two liberal branches of Lutheranism crafted it and it two conservative branches rejected it. Obviously we don’t have to agree with what the LCMS church puts out for us to read, but I do believe that a reconciliation between the LCMS and the Catholic Church is a lot farther away than you think. The LCMS and others like her, see themselves as a valid continuation of the Western Church. We are in fact One holy catholic and apostolic church. From what I’ve learned we don’t need the approval of the Roman pontiff we have the approval of the head of the Church Christ Jesus.

 

[rfournier103]

Jon NC… I know little about Lutheran doctrine, but am I to understand that Lutheran doctrine is one of Sola Fide? I’m not going to debate Sola Fide, but is THAT the main thing keeping Lutherans from coming back?

Also, on a side note, please expect a PM from me that I choose not to post publicly.

 

[Carlan]

One problem, not all Catholics accept all doctrine, dogmas, laws and customs of the Roman Catholic Church. For example the Kennedy’s, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.

You actually cannot say that not knowing what God knows about what is truly in the deep recesses of their souls how can you know, many of us do not know what makes us do the sin we do leave alone others, Paul speaks of it in his letters.
Peace, Carlan

 

[rfournier103]

I TOTALLY AGREE. Let’s look at the facts.

~Fact: For 1,500 years EVERY SINGLE Christian believed the same doctrines and dogmas. Even the Roman/Latin Church and the Eastern Churches all agreed on Transubstansiation, Original Sin, Purgatory, etc… (the Schism is a whole different animal than the Reformation) Agreed?

~Fact: Every single Protestant ecclesiastical community is the direct result of someone, somewhere, REJECTING the Roman Catholic Church, it’s authority, MANY of it’s teachings, AND thereby removing their “ministers” from the Apostolic Succession. Agreed?

~Fact: Many Protestants today reject Transubstansiation, the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the 73 book Bible, Original Sin, Purgatory, prayer for the dead, and that His Holiness and all his predecessors are successors to the Chief of the Apostles (Peter, for those of you who do not know). Agreed?

With all that being said… the way I see it, the ONLY path to unity is this:

1. The Roman Catholic Church agrees to welcome back all Protestants with open arms.
2. All the Protestants agree to accept and abide by all doctrines, dogmas, laws, and customs of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestants walked away from Catholicism in a huff. The Catholic Church DID reform itself after the Protestant Reformation. Did the Church need to fix things? Absolutely. I think the Church held up IT’S end of the bargain. It IS time to end the division, and we are waiting… :hug1:

One problem, not all Catholics accept all doctrine, dogmas, laws and customs of the Roman Catholic Church. For example the Kennedy’s, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.

hn160… How is this a problem? The people you mentioned above have chosen to PERSONALLY reject the Church’s, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, Christ’s teachings regarding killing and personal behavior. They have NO power in the Catholic Church whatsoever, and God will judge them according to their deeds (Rev. 22:12). Their misguided, foolish, and stupid opinions (and actions) do not, and will not have any bearing on Catholic doctrine now or ever.

That being said: it is one thing for a wayward polititian to have an official stance in conflict with the Catholic Church, but what I was talking about was OFFICIAL policy of the thousands of Protestant churches out there. It is MY fault I did not make that more clear. There are Protestants who reject certain aspects of their congregations policies, aren’t there? Or is that just a Catholic thing?

 

[benjohnson]

What on Earth is there here that is contrary to the Christian Book of Concord?

Jon

Absolutely nothing. It’s an amazingly clear description of God’s truth. If this is the product of Lutherans and Catholics working together, we should keep it up, just for the teaching aspects of it.

However, I think I found the nexus of the LCMS objection in that the Joint Deceleration still leaves Trent in place, and I would have to agree that from a Catholic perspective, the teaching in Trent would overrule the Joint Deceleration.

Here’s the pertinent parts of Trent:

*Canon IX: If anyone says that the ungodly is justified by faith alone in such a way that he understands that nothing else is required which cooperates toward obtaining the grace of justification . . . let him be condemned.

Canon XII: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy, which remits sin for Christ’s sake, or that it is this trust alone by which we are justified, let him be condemned.

Canon XIV: If anyone says that a man is absolved and justified because . . . he confidently believes that he is absolved and justified . . . and that through this faith alone absolution and justification is effected, let him be condemned.*

I’m torn on this, because I’d absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the Joint Deceleration and I’m greatly appreciative of the love that the Catholic church has shown us, but frankly, the leadership in the LCMS is quite astute. The more I research this, I am beginning to see their point.

I also remember the Catholic church issued a clarification on the Joint Deceleration, and it seemed to be a more… shall we say… traditional.

 

[JonNC]

=batman1973;10136071]I posted the quote from the LCMS church in response to your earlier musing on why our synod did not sign it. I find it rather interesting that the two liberal branches of Lutheranism crafted it and it two conservative branches rejected it.

In this sense, its a good thing, honestly. That the LCMS is willing to stand on the confessions, while the ELCA/LWF seems willing to be whatever others want them to be - their full altar and pulpit with groups such as the UCC is an example.
NOTE: I am speaking of the leadership, not necessarily individual Lutherans remaining in the ELCA who continue to fight against some of the modernism going on there. god bless and strengthen them.
Unity won’t come from compromise.

Obviously we don’t have to agree with what the LCMS church puts out for us to read, but I do believe that a reconciliation between the LCMS and the Catholic Church is a lot farther away than you think

You’re right about the first part. I am not in doctrinal opposition to the synod by stating that I believe the JDDJ is a statement that fits the confessions. I don’t condemn you for your position, either.
I have no misconceptions regarding the nature of our differences with our siblings in the Catholic Church. All I ask is that when there is common ground, recognize it. Good examples of this are the document called “The Hope of Eternal Life”. The LCMS signed on to it, with caveats - I believe three of them footnoted in the document, and the current position of the synod to stand with the CC on the HHS mandate.

The LCMS and others like her, see themselves as a valid continuation of the Western Church. We are in fact One holy catholic and apostolic church. From what I’ve learned we don’t need the approval of the Roman pontiff we have the approval of the head of the Church Christ Jesus.
Well, of course we do. I would never argue against that. That said, our call from Christ is that we all be one, and the confessions maintain that nothing we teach is against the Church Catholic, which supports my contention that the Reformation is not complete without eventual reconciliation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=rfournier103;10136091]Jon NC… I know little about Lutheran doctrine, but am I to understand that Lutheran doctrine is one of Sola Fide? I’m not going to debate Sola Fide, but is THAT the main thing keeping Lutherans from coming back?

Clearly so. Though I might add that our view of sola fide is not what one might hear from radical protestants, the Reformed, evangelicals, etc.

on

 

[JonNC]

=benjohnson;10136241]Absolutely nothing. It’s an amazingly clear description of God’s truth. If this is the product of Lutherans and Catholics working together, we should keep it up, just for the teaching aspects of it.

Indeed, Ben.

However, I think I found the nexus of the LCMS objection in that the Joint Deceleration still leaves Trent in place, and I would have to agree that from a Catholic perspective, the teaching in Trent would overrule the Joint Deceleration.

Here’s the pertinent parts of Trent:

*Canon IX: If anyone says that the ungodly is justified by faith alone in such a way that he understands that nothing else is required which cooperates toward obtaining the grace of justification . . . let him be condemned.

Canon XII: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy, which remits sin for Christ’s sake, or that it is this trust alone by which we are justified, let him be condemned.

Canon XIV: If anyone says that a man is absolved and justified because . . . he confidently believes that he is absolved and justified . . . and that through this faith alone absolution and justification is effected, let him be condemned.*

The JDDJ says, regarding Trent:
*41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us “salutary warnings” to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21] *

Notice its specific - as presented in this declaration, but this is a dramatic statement from our Catholic friends!

I’m torn on this, because I’d absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the Joint Deceleration and I’m greatly appreciative of the love that the Catholic church has shown us, but frankly, the leadership in the LCMS is quite astute. The more I research this, I am beginning to see their point.

I also remember the Catholic church issued a clarification on the Joint Deceleration, and it seemed to be a more… shall we say… traditional.

I see their point, too. And this point could have been made by issuing a response to the specific concerns they had with the document, just like the CC did.

Jon

 

[batman1973]

In this sense, its a good thing, honestly. That the LCMS is willing to stand on the confessions, while the ELCA/LWF seems willing to be whatever others want them to be - their full altar and pulpit with groups such as the UCC is an example.
NOTE: I am speaking of the leadership, not necessarily individual Lutherans remaining in the ELCA who continue to fight against some of the modernism going on there. god bless and strengthen them.
Unity won’t come from compromise.

You’re right about the first part. I am not in doctrinal opposition to the synod by stating that I believe the JDDJ is a statement that fits the confessions. I don’t condemn you for your position, either.
I have no misconceptions regarding the nature of our differences with our siblings in the Catholic Church. All I ask is that when there is common ground, recognize it. Good examples of this are the document called “The Hope of Eternal Life”. The LCMS signed on to it, with caveats - I believe three of them footnoted in the document, and the current position of the synod to stand with the CC on the HHS mandate.

The LCMS and others like her, see themselves as a valid continuation of the Western Church. We are in fact One holy catholic and apostolic church. From what I’ve learned we don’t need the approval of the Roman pontiff we have the approval of the head of the Church Christ Jesus.

Well, of course we do. I would never argue against that. That said, our call from Christ is that we all be one, and the confessions maintain that nothing we teach is against the Church Catholic, which supports my contention that the Reformation is not complete without eventual reconciliation.

Jon

Man, I don’t know how you do it. It has to be a gift! Such well spoken! Hard to argue your logic. However, I think that the Lutherans are waiting for Rome to come home to us, rather than we go to them. And, we would welcome them with much rejoicing!