Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[batman1973]

Now you’ve got my dander up.

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” Didn’t Jesus say that to John? Isn’t THAT in the Bible? (underscore mine)

2 Thess 2:15 " Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Sounds like there can be TWO Deposits of Faith… (underscore mine)

1 Tim 3:15 “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth”. What church is that? What church (or Church) was around that long ago? (underscore mine)

Acts 8:30-31 “Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.” So… the reader is literate, but requires interpetation? Shouldn’t the reader draw his own conclusions? (underscore mine)

Lastly… from 33 AD (Crucifixion) and 397 AD where was the “sole deposit of faith” (Bible)? How did Christians know what to do and how to worship? And I would LOVE to know where in the Bible Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura may be found. Does salvation TRULY come from faith ALONE? Is scripture the ONLY authority to guide us? Are these doctrines in the Bible?

Yeah… this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. We know that they had the Old Testament written in Jesus day, and I’m quite sure that the letters of the Apostles were floating around for the Church to read, so yes. There has always been the Word. I offered my own opinion on why I won’t join the Catholic Church. For ME and the church I belong to, the Bible is the SOLE rule of faith. If you disagree with that, that’s fine. T(t)raditions are fine, if they are in line with scripture. Otherwise, you can run the risk of teaching for doctrine the commands of men (See Mormonism and JW’s for a perfect example) I will say, and have said that Catholics are true Christians. But, I can tell you, having spent a goodly portion of my life as a Mormon in one part or another, I see much in Catholicism that give me “red flags”.

 

[benjohnson]

Please come home.

Thank you for the heartfelt and sincere invitation. It makes me happy - but at the same time sad that I can’t quite accept. It is most kind of you and I sincerely pray for reconciliation.

 

[XRU]

And lastly, and this is my own personal opinion The Catholic Church reminds me too much of Mormonism for me to be happy there.

I can’t really pass this one up. This seems like a rather snarky remark. It’s presented as an opinion, but it is so extreme and it just seems like a slap in the face of Catholics. If you know about the LDS they are so much a cult. Catholics do have traditions and some or most I don’t really understand (but am willing to learn) . . . but reminds you of Mormonism?

Like in what way?

Eh . . . okay. I read your other post about Mormons so I get it.

 

[rfournier103]

-]/-]

Yeah… this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. We know that they had the Old Testament written in Jesus day, and I’m quite sure that the letters of the Apostles were floating around for the Church to read, so yes. There has always been the Word. I offered my own opinion on why I won’t join the Catholic Church. For ME and the church I belong to, the Bible is the SOLE rule of faith. If you disagree with that, that’s fine. T(t)raditions are fine, if they are in line with scripture. Otherwise, you can run the risk of teaching for doctrine the commands of men (See Mormonism and JW’s for a perfect example) I will say, and have said that Catholics are true Christians. But, I can tell you, having spent a goodly portion of my life as a Mormon in one part or another, I see much in Catholicism that give me “red flags”.

That’s all well and good, and I would never tell another man what he must or should do. If you are Lutheran, be the best Lutheran you can be. I am offended when others assert that Catholicism is “man made”, when it clearly isn’t. And I have never heard the Mormonism comparison before, and I cannot help but bristle at that. I bristle at that because there IS NO COMPARISON. Catholicism is the original Christianity and to say LDS and JWs are like us is absurd, like comparing the USS Carl Vinson and the SS Minnow because they’re both boats. Whatever your beef is with Mormonism, that’s on them. Do the similarities between Catholicism and Lutheranism bother you too?

I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to become Catholic that does not want to be. What each man does is his business. As this is a thread about staying divided for another 500 years, we have been discussing doctrinal differences. I will leave you with this: There are Biblical grounds for 99% of everything in Catholicism. A higher percentage than any other denomination. I TRULY believe that the distrust, misunderstanding, and sometimes outright biggotry some hold towards the Catholic Church stem from lack of knowledge about Catholicism, and from people who just harbor a hatred of all things “Romish”.

Here’s the deal, Batman… I’d like to bury the hatchet with you. I have learned more about Lutheranism today than I have in a long time. Yourself and JonNC have been very helpful to me today, and you guys are far better people than people -]like m3rc3d3s190/-] who come here just to pick a fight.

I also appreciate the chance to practice “defending the Faith”. I’m just now (over the last 8 months) starting to dig deeper into my Faith, and I need practice.

Thank you for being part of this discussion, and I am glad you are here.

 

[XRU]

Thank you for the heartfelt and sincere invitation. It makes me happy - but at the same time sad that I can’t quite accept. It is most kind of you and I sincerely pray for reconciliation.

Hmmmm . . . aren’t you all ready home Ben?

 

[batman1973]

-]/-]

That’s all well and good, and I would never tell another man what he must or should do. If you are Lutheran, be the best Lutheran you can be. I am offended when others assert that Catholicism is “man made”, when it clearly isn’t. And I have never heard the Mormonism comparison before, and I cannot help but bristle at that. I bristle at that because there IS NO COMPARISON. Catholicism is the original Christianity and to say LDS and JWs are like us is absurd, like comparing the USS Carl Vinson and the SS Minnow because they’re both boats. Whatever your beef is with Mormonism, that’s on them. Do the similarities between Catholicism and Lutheranism bother you too?

I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to become Catholic that does not want to be. What each man does is his business. As this is a thread about staying divided for another 500 years, we have been discussing doctrinal differences. I will leave you with this: There are Biblical grounds for 99% of everything in Catholicism. A higher percentage than any other denomination. I TRULY believe that the distrust, misunderstanding, and sometimes outright biggotry some hold towards the Catholic Church stem from lack of knowledge about Catholicism, and from people who just harbor a hatred of all things “Romish”.

Here’s the deal, Batman… I’d like to bury the hatchet with you. I have learned more about Lutheranism today than I have in a long time. Yourself and JonNC have been very helpful to me today, and you guys are far better people than people -]like m3rc3d3s190/-] who come here just to pick a fight.

I also appreciate the chance to practice “defending the Faith”. I’m just now (over the last 8 months) starting to dig deeper into my Faith, and I need practice.

Thank you for being part of this discussion, and I am glad you are here.

I also would love to bury the hatchet. I apologize if I seemed out of line. I also am in need of learning. It is fun to defend the faith. It’s how we learn. Truth be told, I had many misconceptions about Catholicism before I joined this forum.Several of those have been stripped away by being here. I am more convinced now then I ever was about the salvation of Catholics, and that they truly are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Dear ‘Ben’ and ‘Bat’…your responses make me very happy as well and look forward to the day when we can truly be one, and worship at the same banquet table.

Really, then you will understand my anticipation and desires.

I used to be in a parish, whose next door neighbors were Lutherans. They came over to share with us a Thanksgiving Day service. As usual, the Catholics were more quiet…that is because we believe the physical presence of God is on the altar, so we are not so casual.

But anyway, the Lutheran choir came over and they would make Martin Luther very happy as well with their singing and enthusiasm. They looked at us with much longing, and we looked at them…

What will it take to bring us under one roof???

 

[SteveVH]

Yeah… this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. We know that they had the Old Testament written in Jesus day, and I’m quite sure that the letters of the Apostles were floating around for the Church to read, so yes. There has always been the Word. I offered my own opinion on why I won’t join the Catholic Church. For ME and the church I belong to, the Bible is the SOLE rule of faith. If you disagree with that, that’s fine. T(t)raditions are fine, if they are in line with scripture. Otherwise, you can run the risk of teaching for doctrine the commands of men (See Mormonism and JW’s for a perfect example) I will say, and have said that Catholics are true Christians. But, I can tell you, having spent a goodly portion of my life as a Mormon in one part or another, I see much in Catholicism that give me “red flags”.

You really don’t get it, do you? Yes, for you the Bible is the sole rule of faith because that is all you have. Worse yet, you do not even have an authentic interpreter of the one Catholic document you decided to keep. You make up your own version of the truth and then criticize the Church (the one and only Church) who has kept the same doctrines since the time of the Apostles because it does not comply with your personal idea of “Christianity”. And then you have the audacity to lecture us in your ignorance concerning Sacred Tradition and then patronize us by somehow finding it in you to call us Christians. Sorry, I’m not sure why this post got under my skin so bad but enough is enough. The Mormon religion cannot, in any way, shape or form be compared to the Catholic Church. It is not even a denomination of Christianity, but an entirely different religion altogether. That is why we do not recognize their baptism. Its theology is foreign to Christianity.

 

[Porknpie]

Yeah… this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. We know that they had the Old Testament written in Jesus day, and I’m quite sure that the letters of the Apostles were floating around for the Church to read, so yes. There has always been the Word. I offered my own opinion on why I won’t join the Catholic Church. For ME and the church I belong to, the Bible is the SOLE rule of faith. If you disagree with that, that’s fine. T(t)raditions are fine, if they are in line with scripture. Otherwise, you can run the risk of teaching for doctrine the commands of men (See Mormonism and JW’s for a perfect example) I will say, and have said that Catholics are true Christians. But, I can tell you, having spent a goodly portion of my life as a Mormon in one part or another, I see much in Catholicism that give me “red flags”.

Bat -

Couple of thoughts…questions…on the bible being the sole rule of faith.

• why was the canon developed in 405AD?
• what did the Church do without the written Word until 405AD?
• the written Word in 405AD had 73 books. You have 66…or depending on your version only believe 66 are inspired and infallible. The 1611 KJV had all 73. We do not believe that you even have the entire written Word of God.
• bible says to hold fast to what you have been taught… both by spoken word and by what is written. By saying the the bible is the Sole rule of faith…are you holding fast to the spoken word?
• where in the bible does it say that it is the sole rule of faith? For it to be true, it needs to say it, otherwise, how do you know it is true what you say?

Catholic verses Mormons. Hmmm. I’d listen to Jon on this one…and I’ll stay quiet and charitable.

Pork

 

[XRU]

Bat -

Couple of thoughts…questions…on the bible being the sole rule of faith.

• why was the canon developed in 405AD?
• what did the Church do without the written Word until 405AD?
• the written Word in 405AD had 73 books. You have 66…or depending on your version only believe 66 are inspired and infallible. The 1611 KJV had all 73. We do not believe that you even have the entire written Word of God.
• bible says to hold fast to what you have been taught… both by spoken word and by what is written. By saying the the bible is the Sole rule of faith…are you holding fast to the spoken word?
• where in the bible does it say that it is the sole rule of faith? For it to be true, it needs to say it, otherwise, how do you know it is true what you say?

Catholic verses Mormons. Hmmm. I’d listen to Jon on this one…and I’ll stay quiet and charitable.

Pork

Why have we not come together? Well read this above and other posts like it and it is really really obvious. People, Catholics and Protestants alike will NOT step out of their positions and try and understand the others position.

 

[guanophore]

nothing. It's an amazingly clear description of God's truth. If this is the product of Lutherans and Catholics working together, we should keep it up, just for the teaching aspects of it.

However, I think I found the nexus of the LCMS objection in that the Joint Deceleration still leaves Trent in place, and I would have to agree that from a Catholic perspective, the teaching in Trent would overrule the Joint Deceleration.

Here’s the pertinent parts of Trent:

Canon IX: If anyone says that the ungodly is justified by faith alone in such a way that he understands that nothing else is required which cooperates toward obtaining the grace of justification . . . let him be condemned.

This canon actually was crafted against Calvin’s notion of regeneration. The CC received from the Apostles that we have free will, and that we must choose to accept God’s grace. Of course, this does not apply to infants who are baptized, but to the parents, who are obligated to raise the child in the faith.

God does not regenerate us without our cooperation/consent.

Another way of saying it is that we are saved by “faith alone”, so long as the quality fo that faith is a “faith that works”. If it is a faith that manifests itself as working through love, then it is a saving faith, not a dead faith.
benjohnson;10136241:

Canon XII: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy, which remits sin for Christ’s sake, or that it is this trust alone by which we are justified, let him be condemned.

We all agree that we are saved by grace, through faith. That grace that justifies us is the same grace that produces in us works of righteousness. A saving faith always produces works that befit repentance. It is a rejection of the Apostolic faith that we can say a sinners prayer, and all of our sins, past present and future are already forgiven.

Canon XIV: If anyone says that a man is absolved and justified because . . . he confidently believes that he is absolved and justified . . . and that through this faith alone absolution and justification is effected, let him be condemned.

When one turns away from sin, one is truly contrite for their offenses. A truly repentant person will not continue to engage in sinful behavior, believing that they are absolved and justified because they are convinced they are. A person who truly repents will desire to make restitution/ reparation.

I'm torn on this, because I'd absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the Joint Deceleration and I'm greatly appreciative of the love that the Catholic church has shown us, but frankly, the leadership in the LCMS is quite astute. The more I research this, I am beginning to see their point.

I think these statements need to be understood in their context. God’s grace is not “cheap”. He pays the price, but we need to get in the bag with him to go where He takes His purchases.

 

[batman1973]

Dear ‘Ben’ and ‘Bat’…your responses make me very happy as well and look forward to the day when we can truly be one, and worship at the same banquet table.

Really, then you will understand my anticipation and desires.

I used to be in a parish, whose next door neighbors were Lutherans. They came over to share with us a Thanksgiving Day service. As usual, the Catholics were more quiet…that is because we believe the physical presence of God is on the altar, so we are not so casual.

But anyway, the Lutheran choir came over and they would make Martin Luther very happy as well with their singing and enthusiasm. They looked at us with much longing, and we looked at them…

What will it take to bring us under one roof???

Steak and taters at every mass except Fridays (then fish and taters!) j/k
First off, thank you for your kind words. To be completley honest, if I were to become Catholic, I would be a “Cafeteria” Catholic of the worst kind.

 

[Porknpie]

Why have we not come together? Well read this above and other posts like it and it is really really obvious. People, Catholics and Protestants alike will NOT step out of their positions and try and understand the others position.

XRU -

In order to come together, the points I made have to be answered. Pick one and try.

 

[benjohnson]

Hmmmm . . . aren’t you all ready home Ben?

Sure! I’m home. But a combined home fulled with a cacophony of voices would be better and more fun.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

XRU -

In order to come together, the points I made have to be answered. Pick one and try.

 

[KathleenGee]

I hope we go back to meatless Friday’s.

But not in a Catholic Cafeteria…there is no salt.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I’m going to put this into the “Hot Topics” email blast for next week so lets keep it on the civil level that it has been.
Knew I could count on you guys.

 

[JonNC]

Dear ‘Ben’ and ‘Bat’…your responses make me very happy as well and look forward to the day when we can truly be one, and worship at the same banquet table.

Really, then you will understand my anticipation and desires.

I used to be in a parish, whose next door neighbors were Lutherans. They came over to share with us a Thanksgiving Day service. As usual, the Catholics were more quiet…that is because we believe the physical presence of God is on the altar, so we are not so casual.

But anyway, the Lutheran choir came over and they would make Martin Luther very happy as well with their singing and enthusiasm. They looked at us with much longing, and we looked at them…

We believe He is on the altar as well, and Father Martin would NOT be happy if they were not reverent.

What will it take to bring us under one roof???

Prayer, dialogue, love for each other, and the Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

I deeply appreciate your posts, Jon. I see you as a brother in Christ and deeply appreciate your beliefs that we are on the same page.

However, and I must admit, I was among the many reserved Catholics at that service, is that we need to have it decreed by the Church that our Mass and sacraments do the same with the same effects. So we are very reserved…but waiting and open and most of all, desiring the return of this sacred unity.

As far as your sentiments go, we are already in sacred unity with you. We are already dialoging…but we do not have any authority to do anything else except pray and continue on as we have been doing here.

Who knows? We may be alive when this unity is actualized.

 

[guanophore]

One problem, not all Catholics accept all doctrine, dogmas, laws and customs of the Roman Catholic Church. For example the Kennedy’s, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.

I think it is against the forum rules to name politicians here.

You say that it is a “problem” that persons claiming to be Catholic do not accept the Catholic faith. I guess I don’t understand how this is a “problem”. Are you suggesting that what Jesus taught may not be true becuase Judas did not believe it? Or because some of the Jews turned their backs on Him? Do you think that TRuth is defined by those who depart from it?