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mitex
Guest
In other words protestants have to convert and become Catholic. That’s a deal breaker for me.
Instead let’s focus on areas we agree instead of trying to convert each other haha.
Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?
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Instead let’s focus on areas we agree instead of trying to convert each other haha.
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PRmerger
Guest
What you say is no different than what the Muslim says: Muslims having to convert and become Christians is a deal breaker for them. They want to focus on areas they agree on instead of trying to convert each other.In other words protestants have to convert and become Catholic. That’s a deal breaker for me.
Instead let’s focus on areas we agree instead of trying to convert each other haha.
Except, the Catholic says: we love you, and where you proclaim the Truth, we give you a
Where you are divorced from Truth, we must correct you.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Mitex,In other words protestants have to convert and become Catholic. That’s a deal breaker for me.
Instead let’s focus on areas we agree instead of trying to convert each other haha.
What you say is absolutely true. You should not ever consider converting. You should of course believe that this is a deal breaker. No way, no how, uh, uh…why in the world should you consider giving up any of your beliefs…you should sit right where you are unless you believe that Paul never converted…
Paul never renounced any of his beliefs…
In Romans Paul says this…
In Phillipians he says this…
and in Acts we see this…
Paul was never converted…he just saw things that he already knew and understood differently…can you?
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adf417
Guest
mitex can we simplify it even further than that? If we are all considered one body in Christ, why is it impossible for some Protestants to come together to simply pray with Catholics? This has proven to be a very difficult situation within our ecumenical efforts where I live and I have heard it is true in other areas as well. We are not talking conversion just simply prayer.In other words protestants have to convert and become Catholic. That’s a deal breaker for me.
Instead let’s focus on areas we agree instead of trying to convert each other haha.
I would like to ask this question to the OP as well. Where does this unity begin?
Peace!!!
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Rich
Guest
Every Priest who tried to take the corruption out of the church was burned at the stake. Luther would have been if the Pope could have gotten a hold of him.
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cheezey
Guest
What I wouldn’t give!!! - not literally - to do this!!! I can’t seem to get into the RCIA, I cannot partake, and I need to!!! Just going to mass as a guest, while great, is not enough for me. Is it really a problem for that many non Catholics?I didn’t honestly know. I’ve been doing this for YEARS, albeit, for diverse reasons.mitex can we simplify it even further than that? If we are all considered one body in Christ, **why is it impossible for some Protestants to come together to simply pray with Catholics? **This has proven to be a very difficult situation within our ecumenical efforts where I live and I have heard it is true in other areas as well. We are not talking conversion just simply prayer.
I would like to ask this question to the OP as well. Where does this unity begin?
Peace!!!
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adf417
Guest
cheezy I was speaking in terms of simple prayer service outside of the liturgy of the Mass. Sure I wish the whole body of Christ would come together for Mass but that seems to be far fetched for many. Something is terrible wrong when some denominations will not come to our church for a prayer service even after we have shown good faith effort in attending theirs for years. I wonder if the OP was thinking of situations like this when this thread was originally posted?
BTW, I pray you will in time find a way to join us in full communion some day. What is keeping you from RCIA?
Peace!!!
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cheezey
Guest
You name it; nothing ever came in the form of interest, return phone calls, and direct contacts from the Church. I’ve been at this for two months, posted numerous related questions on CAF, which have been great, but nothing can get the deacon to call me. I have tried and I am weary. And now it has been suggested that it’s not even an option at this time, implying that classes are now closed. (That did not come from CAF.) I thought wanting to be available to Christ could/would be without end. Apparently not. I understand busy schedules, not enough people to teach, and my first inquiry was late November, etc, but still.
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october_baby
Guest
I’m sorry that your having so many problems,
I think RICA starts in September.
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cheezey
Guest
Thank you. I feel an urgency that may not make it to then. Now there’s a division. But we’ll see.I’m sorry that your having so many problems,
Again, thank you.
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Denise1957
Guest
I felt the same way, and had the same problem before I converted. By the time I finally decided to convert, the RCIA has already been going on for two months, and it was too late for me to attend. It was quite frustrating.
There is one other option which may be available to you. If there is an FSSP parish in your area, you can meet one-on-one with the priest, since they have no RCIA. The FSSP priest teaches you directly, at any time of the year, so that you needn’t wait. Solid catechesis, too. Of course it’s the Latin Mass that they celebrate, which isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Chezey,
People have a way of always responding to Physicians. If you PM me and it is your wish, I will call and light a fire under someone. Your call.
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Attejohannes
Guest
I have tried to go through this thread.
The one who started it, had a simple and very sincere question. My answer is that we may probably not want another separation of 500 years (or 5000 years or until the end of time), but we probably will have it. And nothing that I have read along this thread makes it seem otherwise.
I amd Lutheran. This does not mean that I consider Luther infallible or sinless or even particularly well-mannered and tolerant person. I simply think that he shifted again the focus of faith from Church to Christ. And I honestly think that this focus was lost from Catholics in his days and to some extent even now. That is my standpoint. Now I have said it and I do not come back to it again. At least in this thread.
It is more than abundantly clear to me that I am considered by Roman Catholics as heretic. I do not contradict, from your standpoint you are right.
And I myself would rather like to be called a heretic by the Pope himself, instead of the rather condescending and vague reference of “limited sacramental unity with the Church, which however is not a full communion”. For the apostles there were no persons or groups with “limited sacramental unity”, it was all or nothing.
If the price of unity is to claim to believe what you do not believe (like the latest Catholic dogmas of Papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Virgin), then this pretended faith does not have any value, would be dishonest, and would not save me even if these dogmas (to much of my surprise) would be true.
If I am reminded that these things are true because the Church says they are true, and we know that the Church is right, because the Church knows what is right, because the Church, according to the Church, is the Guardian of Truth, of course, according to the Church… ad infinitum. Then to me this is just similar circular deduction of which we Bible-toting protestants are so well known.
I have written rather rudely, it is partially because English is not my first language and I am not able to formulate my phrases in a more diplomatic way. Suffice to say that my intention is not to offend, and I am not questioning the salvation of Catholics.
Regarding myself, I know that I will be judged by One, who knows everything, who is All Merciful and Perfectly Just. Whatever is going to be His final word of me and my eternal destiny I know that the decision will be indusputably right, merciful and just. Here I stand…
The one who started it, had a simple and very sincere question. My answer is that we may probably not want another separation of 500 years (or 5000 years or until the end of time), but we probably will have it. And nothing that I have read along this thread makes it seem otherwise.
I amd Lutheran. This does not mean that I consider Luther infallible or sinless or even particularly well-mannered and tolerant person. I simply think that he shifted again the focus of faith from Church to Christ. And I honestly think that this focus was lost from Catholics in his days and to some extent even now. That is my standpoint. Now I have said it and I do not come back to it again. At least in this thread.
It is more than abundantly clear to me that I am considered by Roman Catholics as heretic. I do not contradict, from your standpoint you are right.
And I myself would rather like to be called a heretic by the Pope himself, instead of the rather condescending and vague reference of “limited sacramental unity with the Church, which however is not a full communion”. For the apostles there were no persons or groups with “limited sacramental unity”, it was all or nothing.
If the price of unity is to claim to believe what you do not believe (like the latest Catholic dogmas of Papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Virgin), then this pretended faith does not have any value, would be dishonest, and would not save me even if these dogmas (to much of my surprise) would be true.
If I am reminded that these things are true because the Church says they are true, and we know that the Church is right, because the Church knows what is right, because the Church, according to the Church, is the Guardian of Truth, of course, according to the Church… ad infinitum. Then to me this is just similar circular deduction of which we Bible-toting protestants are so well known.
I have written rather rudely, it is partially because English is not my first language and I am not able to formulate my phrases in a more diplomatic way. Suffice to say that my intention is not to offend, and I am not questioning the salvation of Catholics.
Regarding myself, I know that I will be judged by One, who knows everything, who is All Merciful and Perfectly Just. Whatever is going to be His final word of me and my eternal destiny I know that the decision will be indusputably right, merciful and just. Here I stand…
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ffg
Guest
Welcome to CAF. I’ve enjoyed it. Much more polite people here than on other sites. It makes talking about important things more interesting.
As the forum is built for discussion, you will have some people ask you questions and make comments on your post.
The key in all of this is to continue to think and hash things out.
You seem firm in some thoughts on the CC, did you convert from the CC by chance?
Take care,
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Attejohannes
Guest
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ffg
Guest
You found the right place.
There is still discernment to be had as Catholics can disagree amongst themselves. This brings out the beauty in having the Church as it was built on Peter to carry forward the Lord’s teaching until the end of time.
When there are three that disagree, we have a place to go for guidance rather than go our separate ways.
The purpose of the Church as the Bride of Christ is to help bring people closer to Jesus.
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, welcome to the CAFs!
Secondly, let me correct your misperception. According to the Catholic Church, you are not considered a heretic.
From our Catechism:
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” CCC 818
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Attejohannes
Guest
That is OK, if you trust the infallibility of the Church. To an outsider the infallibility is based on circular argument: Church is infallible, because it says it is infallible, and this is true, because the Church is infallible etc.
The practices that Luther criticized and which the present day Catholics agree as scandalous (or am I mistaken?) were in Luther’s days sanctioned by the highest authority of the infallible Church.
You may then ask, what I have to offer instead, my own infallibility perhaps?
My answer is that schisms and fragmentation of Chrisianity have been allowed by God, and in the end they must serve His purposes. Any formal submission to an authority, if you do not deep in your heart believe in what your mouth is confessing, is not a faith that would help you in the face of judgement, particularly if you force yourself to do what your conscience condemns.
If you ask, what we Lutherans mean when we say our creed and confess our belief in one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, we answer that until the end of days there will be people on earth who believe in Christ and place their trust on Him, although the rites and ceremonies may differ.
There is an anecdote of a Lutheran who was asked by a Catholic: “Where was your “Church” before the 16th Century”. The Lutheran answered: “Did you wash your face this morning”. “Yes, naturally”, answered the Catholic. “Where was your face before you washed it?” reorted the Lutheran.
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PRmerger
Guest
Actually, Attejohannes, you trust the infallibility of the Catholic Church as well.
Do you not defer to her authority each and every time you quote from the New Testament, yes?
For the ONLY way you know that Hebrews, Philemon, 3 John, the Gospel of Mark is inspired, and the letter of Clement, Shepherd of Hermas, Didache are not inspired…
is through the infallible authority of the CC.
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