Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

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I think you make a good point, CU. The Church is the Ark through which we sojourn in this world. It is the Body of Christ, into which we are baptized as members so that we can grow up into Him.

Jesus founded One Church, and left us One Faith. There is no room in His gift for “different doctrine”.

1 Tim 1:3
I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

We are to be of one mind, and in unity of mind.

The “returning” would be to the One Faith, entrusted once for all to the Saints.
If the Catholic Church is the Ark, then all non-catholics are not in the Ark; therefore, with that view… all non-catholics will drown just like the unbelievers in the world wide flood of judgment and the coming day of wrath. I believe all Christians are safe and secure in our unity with Jesus Christ. He is our refuge and safety from the day of wrath.
 
If the Catholic Church is the Ark, then all non-catholics are not in the Ark; therefore, with that view… all non-catholics will drown just like the unbelievers in the world wide flood of judgment and the coming day of wrath. I believe all Christians are safe and secure in our unity with Jesus Christ. He is our refuge and safety from the day of wrath.
CU, are you seeking THE TRUTH? or everyone’s truth?

So the Apostles spoke of ONE TRUTH, but the many churches have different truths, and many times the truths of one group contradict another. Is this what the God wants? Is this what the Apostles taught?

Doesn’t it matter to LEARN THE ONE TRUTH? 🤷

I invite you to read more about the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Eastern Catholic Church, and mostly the Early Church Fathers. Read the history of Christianity.
 
CU, are you seeking THE TRUTH? or everyone’s truth?

So the Apostles spoke of ONE TRUTH, but the many churches have different truths, and many times the truths of one group contradict another. Is this what the God wants? Is this what the Apostles taught?

Doesn’t it matter to LEARN THE ONE TRUTH? 🤷

I invite you to read more about the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, the Eastern Catholic Church, and mostly the Early Church Fathers. Read the history of Christianity.
I do value Church history and consider myself to be a historic biblical Christian. I adhere to the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed. I have read quite a bit of Augustine and Calvin and others writings of those who went before us. I read about the Great Schism too. I believe we can error by historic exegesis and newspaper exegesis.
 
I do value Church history and consider myself to be a historic biblical Christian. I adhere to the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed. I have read quite a bit of Augustine and Calvin and others writings of those who went before us. I read about the Great Schism too. I believe we can error by historic exegesis and newspaper exegesis.
I invite you to read deeper in to it, because he that reads history realizes that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church of the Apostles, the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

Augustine is NOT a monergist. It does not matter how much people paint him as such. Read about the pelagian heresy, and you will understand why he focus so much on God working in us. This does not mean that he was monergist, because if you read other of his works, he is clearly synergist.
 
If the Catholic Church is the Ark, then all non-catholics are not in the Ark; therefore, with that view… all non-catholics will drown just like the unbelievers in the world wide flood of judgment and the coming day of wrath. **I believe all Christians are safe and secure in our unity with Jesus Christ. ** He is our refuge and safety from the day of wrath.
👍
 
Can unity be achieved is an interesting question that really deserves weeks of study to understand. With the Catholic Church you can only have unity through submission. From my perspective the Religious and Political power of the Vatican has no rival. I can spend hours reading the Vatican archives which really helps with my biblical understanding. Contained in the library there is so much information that I’m in 100% agreement with. Do we have documents that back up the Power wielded by the Pope?. In order to have unity with the Vatican you must accept the Pope’s as you Temporal and spiritual leader. We have worldwide leaders stating it’s their obligation to institute the Pope’s decrees in their countries. Watching the ecumenical movements, quotes from world leaders, and world regulatory bodies speaking in harmony with the Pope has always intrigued me. Taking the statements from Vatican then watching the ecumenical movement you can come to only one truth; the world is already submitted to the Pope thus creating unity even if most do not know it. When I see can questions on Unity it appears thinly veiled, the real question has the world already submitted to the Pope.

Definition of Unity:
  1. the state of being one; oneness.
  2. a whole or totality as combining all its parts into one.
  3. the state or fact of being united or combined into one, as of the parts of a whole; unification.
  4. absence of diversity; unvaried or uniform character.
  5. oneness of mind, feeling, etc., as among a number of persons; concord, harmony, or agreement.
Statements from the Vatican:

“The Second Vatican Council teaches that the Bishop of Rome, as Vicar of Christ, has supreme and universal power over the whole Church (cf. LG 22). This power, as well as that of all bishops, has a ministerial character (ministerium means service), as the Fathers of the Church had already observed.”

“Having said that, we can reread the definition of the Council of Florence (1439), which stated: “We define that the Holy Apostolic See–and the Roman Pontiff–has primacy over the whole world, and that the same Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, prince of the apostles and true Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, and father and teacher of all Christians, and that upon him, in blessed Peter, our Lord Jesus Christ conferred the full power of shepherding, ruling and governing the universal Church, as is also stated in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons” (DS 1307)”

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html

The Pope Exercises Supreme Jurisdiction
Source: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html

“It is our clear duty, therefore, to strain every muscle in working for the time when all war can be completely outlawed by international consent. This goal undoubtedly requires the establishment of some universal public authority acknowledged as such by all and endowed with the power to safeguard on the behalf of all, security, regard for justice, and respect for rights. But before this hoped for authority can be set up, the highest existing international centers must devote themselves vigorously to the pursuit of better means for obtaining common security.”

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

I whole heartily agree with the above statement, Gorbachev, Bush Jr and Bush Sr, and so many others stating their obligation is institute the Pope’s dictates. You have Red Mass, Blue Mass which through outreach is converting many through all levels of Government and Police to Catholicism.

The Ecumenical Movement - Pope Benedict and Religious Leaders
Again you have to realize the Pope is far above all the religious leaders in these videos. They have come before the Pope but they are not equal in any sense. Only one conclusion is they are all there in submission and are recognizing the Pope as the worldwide leader. If you take issue to this you will need to read
the Vatican Library.

youtube.com/watch?v=CWYKb4vXlmk
Non Christian Ecumenism of Vatican
youtube.com/watch?v=5RE_kddCvVE
youtube.com/watch?v=6LXPHSTlyb4
youtube.com/watch?v=p-ZETt77tuQ

Sabbath:
Protestants owe all there doctrine to the Catholic Church, and the church has been operating long before Protestants. That has been stated by the Church so do we have another area of submission? Could Sunday also be a form of Submission to the Catholic Church? Based on Vatican writings and Cardinals also show this to be true. What day is worshiped is always a contentious point but should be explored.
 
Vatican Statements on the Sabbath:

“Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath… “

“The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ…”

“In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.”
“2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord’s Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life.
"Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church."110”
"Also to be observed are the day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Epiphany,
the Ascension of Christ,
the feast of the Body and Blood of Christi,
the feast of Mary the Mother of God,
her Immaculate Conception,
her Assumption,
the feast of Saint Joseph,
the feast of the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul, and the feast of All Saints."111”
“The Sunday obligation”
“2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118”

Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7O.HTM

“The present canonical and liturgical provisions allow each Episcopal Conference, because of particular circumstances in one country or another, to reduce the list of Holy Days of obligation. Any decision in this regard needs to receive the special approval of the Apostolic See, (127) and in such cases the celebration of a mystery of the Lord, such as the Epiphany, the Ascension or the Solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ, must be transferred to Sunday, in accordance with liturgical norms, so that the faithful are not denied the chance to meditate upon the mystery. (128) Pastors should also take care to encourage the faithful to attend Mass on other important feast-days celebrated during the week. (129)”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers

Third–A rule of faith, or a competent guide to heaven, must be able to instruct in all the truths necessary for salvation. Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
James Cardinal Gibbons- Links
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15041902_in-mplissimo_en.html
amazon.com/Faith-Our-Fathers-James-Gibbons/dp/B003YMNUVW

[pg. 174]
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
Q. Has the Church power to appoint days of fasting?
A. Certainly; for St. Augustine, one of the bishops of the early and confessedly pure Church, taxed Aerius with heresy, for having disputed that right.
Q. Can the Church forbid us the use of certain kinds of food on particular days?
A. Yes; for she did so even in the time of the Apostles, Acts xv, 29—“That you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled.”

Source: DOCTRINAL CATECHISM;
WHEREIN DIVERS POINTS OF CATHOLIC FAITH AND PRACTICE ASSAILED BY MODERN HERETICS
Stephen Keenan

It’s really difficult via a forum to cut down the vast amount of Vatican documents from its own libraries that show the world is fully submitted to her. I believe that this is true beyond any doubt and unity/submission will continue worldwide at an accelerated rate.
 
Can unity be achieved is an interesting question that really deserves weeks of study to understand. With the Catholic Church you can only have unity through submission.
Yes, this is very Catholic. You believe this, too, bill.

We all will have unity when we have submission to Christ and His Body.
 
From my perspective the Religious and Political power of the Vatican has no rival.
The Vatican has religious and political power?

whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/29811419866/when-i-heard-rihanna-tell-oprah-that-she-was-more

Are you aware of how much “power” the Vatican has in influencing Catholics to follow her teaching regarding contraception?

What about the Vatican’s power in influencing Catholics to vote using Catholic principles of morality?

What about the Vatican’s power in enlightening Catholics regarding the dogma of the Real Presence?

Truly, you have a strange concept of Vatican power and influence.
 
The Vatican has religious and political power?

whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/29811419866/when-i-heard-rihanna-tell-oprah-that-she-was-more

Are you aware of how much “power” the Vatican has in influencing Catholics to follow her teaching regarding contraception?

What about the Vatican’s power in influencing Catholics to vote using Catholic principles of morality?

What about the Vatican’s power in enlightening Catholics regarding the dogma of the Real Presence?

Truly, you have a strange concept of Vatican power and influence.
My belief is based off the Vatican’s own statements this is only one of the many sources.

We define that the Holy Apostolic See–and the Roman Pontiff–has primacy over the whole world, and that the same Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, prince of the apostles and true Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, and father and teacher of all Christians, and that upon him, in blessed Peter, our Lord Jesus Christ conferred the full power of shepherding, ruling and governing the universal Church, as is also stated in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons" (DS 1307)”

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/jo…9930224en.html
 
My belief is based off the Vatican’s own statements this is only one of the many sources.

We define that the Holy Apostolic See–and the Roman Pontiff–has primacy over the whole world, and that the same Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, prince of the apostles and true Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, and father and teacher of all Christians, and that upon him, in blessed Peter, our Lord Jesus Christ conferred the full power of shepherding, ruling and governing the universal Church, as is also stated in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons" (DS 1307)”

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/jo…9930224en.html
Amen!

This is nothing more and nothing less than a testament to apostolic succession, in fulfillment of Christ’s words that he would not leave us orphans.

But as for this being a statement regarding the Vatican’s power and influence over the entire world, not so much.

She can’t even get her flock to stop using birth control, so it’s curious how anyone could interpret the Vatican has having worldwide influence.
 
Amen!

This is nothing more and nothing less than a testament to apostolic succession, in fulfillment of Christ’s words that he would not leave us orphans.

But as for this being a statement regarding the Vatican’s power and influence over the entire world, not so much.

She can’t even get her flock to stop using birth control, so it’s curious how anyone could interpret the Vatican has having worldwide influence.
👍…AGAIN!!!
 
B]Vatican Statements on the Sabbath:
Bill,

You point out the obvious…is there any other Christian institution on earth that has such a vast store of historical documents?
It’s really difficult via a forum to cut down the vast amount of Vatican documents from its own libraries that show the world is fully submitted to her. I believe that this is true beyond any doubt and unity/submission will continue worldwide at an accelerated rate./
You don’t have to submit to me…🙂
You don’t have to submit to PRMerger…although that thought often crosses my mind…😛

You are required to submit to the Will of God, you are required to submit to the power of the Holy Spirit, you are required to submit that to know the Father you must know Jesus…

You may consider that submission to the Vatican as you say may be…

Assent to the revealed truths…so that you can then properly submit…
 
Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?
We do not agree on the Creeds. As a former Baptist I did not believe in the communion of saints nor did we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins nor did we believe in apostolic succession. That would probably be why these creeds were never quoted in any of the Baptist churches I attended.

At the end of the day, we are as far apart as day is from night and how are we going to come to any agreement when Protestants are free to believe whatever they want as is evident in the fact that they can’t agree among themselves? I did my part in bringing unity to the Church by returning and submitting to her authority as opposed to continuing in rebellion against her. I invite you to do the same.
 
Short of the Second Coming of Christ before the end of the nest 500 hundred years, i’d say that it is pretty good odds that all those hell bent on division will overpower any efforts for true unity in the sense that the denomination barriors will remain strong.

How on earth can we unite, at least in the basic certainty of Christ as our Savior, when there are so many fingers pointing to each other saying things like " you are a cult’ “you are not a true christian”“you and your rituals’ " you have no rituals” 'your service is too undignified ’ “yours is so boring” " i was here first" ‘who cares?’ and on and on and on

No wonder Jesus will rule with an Iron Rod!
 
Short of the Second Coming of Christ before the end of the nest 500 hundred years, i’d say that it is pretty good odds that all those hell bent on division will overpower any efforts for true unity in the sense that the denomination barriors will remain strong.

How on earth can we unite, at least in the basic certainty of Christ as our Savior, when there are so many fingers pointing to each other saying things like " you are a cult’ “you are not a true christian”“you and your rituals’ " you have no rituals” 'your service is too undignified ’ “yours is so boring” " i was here first" ‘who cares?’ and on and on and on

No wonder Jesus will rule with an Iron Rod!
:clapping:

However, Unity without Truth will never be true Unity.

And where do we draw the line and say that we are united? Should union with those who believe in One God, like the Muslims and Jews, be enough? But what about the fact that they reject Christ? Should that be dismissed in the name of unity?

Or should we call ourselves united if if someone believes in Christ? But what about all the other differences Christians have? Are they to be dismissed?

Or should Catholics call ourselves united if someone believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Where do we draw the line? And how do you know that this is where the line is to be drawn? And who gets to say where this line is, anyway?
 
We do not agree on the Creeds. As a former Baptist I did not believe in the communion of saints nor did we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins nor did we believe in apostolic succession. That would probably be why these creeds were never quoted in any of the Baptist churches I attended.

At the end of the day, we are as far apart as day is from night and how are we going to come to any agreement when Protestants are free to believe whatever they want as is evident in the fact that they can’t agree among themselves? I did my part in bringing unity to the Church by returning and submitting to her authority as opposed to continuing in rebellion against her. I invite you to do the same.
Couldn’t have put better myself! 👍
 
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