Do we see the truth about our leaders?

[Darrel]

I was in adoration recently and felt I needed to pray that President of the United States would stop lying. It just popped into my head when I was praying about totally unrelated things.

A large portion of us just seem to have fallen asleep to the ‘real truth’. We takes sides like democrat or republican and just go along with the issues as Catholic’s like abortion and birth control etc etc.

A good number of us side with the President on the war (myself included) as if he is a good man doing the right thing. I think he lies like every other political figure. I also think that lies have been accepted in our government as being “just part of the game”.

When you strip away all of the political parties and hot issues it seems clear. We are all being lied to on a regular basis by everyone or most everyone we vote into power. They are obviously coached by advisors to not be “too honest”. I feel this is a fundamental problem in the world today. I would love to see the president just come out and say.

My fellow Americans, our government is a toilet full of scum and fraud. Our leaders are corrupt to core and the American people need to cry out that new laws will be enacted to bring into existence a new mindset on capitol hill that places integrity above personal gain and the quality of life for all Americans above the personal gain of the individual politician.

Why is it just fine and dandy that we are being lied to every day by our leaders? I think we need to pray that our leaders will see this. In my opinion only God can make this happen at this stage in “the game”. Are we just going along with “the game” as Catholics? Should we be a little more disgusted and outraged by the simple fact that we are all being exposed to common place dishonesty in every corner of government? Opinions?

-D

 

[pippin]

What really bothers me is that they all want us to believe that they are such great Christians. In other western countries politicians do not have to pretend to be religious in order to be elected. It gives Christianity a bad name when they then start lying. Also, I believe that by claiming to be Christian they actually fool a lot of people who think that a good Christian doesn’t lie.

 

[Darrel]

pippin:

What really bothers me is that they all want us to believe that they are such great Christians. In other western countries politicians do not have to pretend to be religious in order to be elected. It gives Christianity a bad name when they then start lying. Also, I believe that by claiming to be Christian they actually fool a lot of people who think that a good Christian doesn’t lie.

Exactly!

For example, the election for the Presisent will come in a couple years. We all know that all manor of false hopes and empty promises will be made. We all know that they will (on both sides) say things like "we need alternitive fuel sources, I will make it happen!!! I will give poor Americans affordable health care blah blah blah.

We all know that this is a total pack of lies. Yet it is the norm, why do we allow this? Why is the Pope not calling all of the polititions on Earth a bunch of Liars and demanding that we speak up about it? Does the Church feel it would be a waste to educate the masses and say that this should never be accepted? I do not blame the Church for the sins of others. But imagine if the Pope asked us all to not vote in protest of dishonest polititions? Would it get the attention of Washington?

-D

 

[Karin]

Darrel:

I was in adoration recently and felt I needed to pray that President of the United States would stop lying. It just popped into my head when I was praying about totally unrelated things.

A large portion of us just seem to have fallen asleep to the ‘real truth’. We takes sides like democrat or republican and just go along with the issues as Catholic’s like abortion and birth control etc etc.

A good number of us side with the President on the war (myself included) as if he is a good man doing the right thing. I think he lies like every other political figure. I also think that lies have been accepted in our government as being “just part of the game”.

When you strip away all of the political parties and hot issues it seems clear. We are all being lied to on a regular basis by everyone or most everyone we vote into power. They are obviously coached by advisors to not be “too honest”. I feel this is a fundamental problem in the world today. I would love to see the president just come out and say.

My fellow Americans, our government is a toilet full of scum and fraud. Our leaders are corrupt to core and the American people need to cry out that new laws will be enacted to bring into existence a new mindset on capitol hill that places integrity above personal gain and the quality of life for all Americans above the personal gain of the individual politician.

Why is it just fine and dandy that we are being lied to every day by our leaders? I think we need to pray that our leaders will see this. In my opinion only God can make this happen at this stage in “the game”. Are we just going along with “the game” as Catholics? Should we be a little more disgusted and outraged by the simple fact that we are all being exposed to common place dishonesty in every corner of government? Opinions?

-D

The politicans may ok are lieing to us but I guess it is ok or people are really not bothered by it since the people that vote these guys and gals into office keep voting them in.
I think if it really bothered people more people would step up and do something about it!

 

[Della]

I find it quite disturbing that without a shred of evidence you are judging a man to be a liar merely because he is a politician. I know it’s a common joke that every politician is a liar, but to actually accuse another person of being a deliberate liar without any proof other than “he is a politician ergo he must be a liar” is simply wrong! No politician lies all the time about everything nor do they always need to be deceptive in order to serve the country. I am appalled by your accusation, and even more by your jaded assumptions.

 

[Darrel]

Della:

I find it quite disturbing that without a shred of evidence you are judging a man to be a liar merely because he is a politician. I know it’s a common joke that every politician is a liar, but to actually accuse another person of being a deliberate liar without any proof other than “he is a politician ergo he must be a liar” is simply wrong! No politician lies all the time about everything nor do they always need to be deceptive in order to serve the country. I am appalled by your accusation, and even more by your jaded assumptions.

Della,

I say this with all charity, but are you serious? Here is proof. Tell me this is not a bold face lie.

We do not torture," Mr Bush told reporters during a visit to Panama.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415132.stm

-D

 

[Della]

I named no names in my post, so why do you assume I was talking about Bush in particular. Besides, he may have believed what he said at the time. We shouldn’t conclude we know someone’s intentions unless we have irrefutable proof of them. Besides, what I wrote still stands. It is wrong to assume that everyone in public office is a liar or has to lie to be a politician. And it wasn’t necessary to put your comment in large red letters for me to read them. I have sufficiently good eye sight to read ordinary print, thank you very much.

 

[pippin]

Darrel:

Exactly!

. But imagine if the Pope asked us all to not vote in protest of dishonest polititions? Would it get the attention of Washington?

-D

I doubt if even that would make a difference. It would have to be not just the Catholics but all Christians and it would never happen. The “moral right” or what ever they are called need to stop aligning themselves with a party. We need to bring attention to so called Christians acting in unchristian ways. The issue that bothers me most right now is not the lies but the torture. How can anyone make a claim to follow Christ the all merciful and condone torture. WWJT (Who would Jesus Torture?)

 

[Darrel]

Della:

I named no names in my post, so why do you assume I was talking about Bush in particular. Besides, he may have believed what he said at the time. We shouldn’t conclude we know someone’s intentions unless we have irrefutable proof of them. Besides, what I wrote still stands. It is wrong to assume that everyone in public office is a liar or has to lie to be a politician. And it wasn’t necessary to put your comment in large red letters for me to read them. I have sufficiently good eye sight to read ordinary print, thank you very much.

hehe

Point taken on the red I will refrain. I said most politicians lie. The questions in the poll make that pretty obvious. What percentage of them do you feel will lie on regular basis?

-D

 

[wcknight]

The only politician in the modern era, I would ever trust is, former President Jimmy Carter. The rest of them would not know the truth even if it hit them across the back of the head with a 2 by 4.
Integrity, honesty are lost virtues when it comes to politicians.

It’s questionable IF a honest person is even electable in this day and age, and that is a very sad commentary on America as a nation.

 

[JimG]

wcknight:

The only politician in the modern era, I would ever trust is, former President Jimmy Carter. The rest of them would not know the truth even if it hit them across the back of the head with a 2 by 4.
Integrity, honesty are lost virtues when it comes to politicians.
It’s questionable IF a honest person is even electable in this day and age, and that is a very sad commentary on America as a nation.

Not everyone would share your assessment of President Carter. While I have no doubt that he is a good and sincere Christian, I don’t think his administration was particularly good for the country. During that period we experienced high interest rates, high inflation, and he appointed an inordinate number of pro-abortion judges.

But that has to do with political judgments, not honesty.

Political disagreements do not mean someone is lying.
Political mistakes do not mean someone is lying.
Political misjudgments do not mean someone is lying.
Even political hyperbole does not constitute lying.

If a politician is lying, there are other politicians of different parties to point it out, or the press, or the people, or you yourself.

But you can’t just accuse someone of lying, without proof; anymore than you would want someone to accuse you of lying without proof.

If that is your foregone conclusion of the character of all politicians, why would anyone want to run for public office, only to subject themselves to such allegations?

 

[pippin]

I didn’t think this thread was about any particular politicians or all politicians, only those politicians who lie.

 

[Della]

Darrel:

hehe

Point taken on the red I will refrain. I said most politicians lie. The questions in the poll make that pretty obvious. What percentage of them do you feel will lie on regular basis?

-D

And how can I answer that if I don’t know who is lying and who isn’t? I have my personal opinions of who I think are lying, but even so, my gut feelings don’t count–it’s lining up what is said against what is true, not my feelings about who I think must be lying. As to who was lying about the Iraq War (let’s face it–that’s what we’re really talking about here) I recommend to you all this thread on the topic:Who is Lying About Iraq.

 

[MommaKat]

I have a line for this thread. You without sin can cast the first stone.
Remove the beam from your own eyes before trying to remove the splitter from your brothers eye.

We should pray for all our politicians.

Maybe we should ask do we see the truth about the human condition.

There were only two perfect people one was Jesus and he is God and Mary is the other and her was by the grace of God.

 

[Darrel]

Della:

And how can I answer that if I don’t know who is lying and who isn’t? I have my personal opinions of who I think are lying, but even so, my gut feelings don’t count–it’s lining up what is said against what is true, not my feelings about who I think must be lying. As to who was lying about the Iraq War (let’s face it–that’s what we’re really talking about here) I recommend to you all this thread on the topic:Who is Lying About Iraq.

This thread realy had nothing to do with the war in Iraq at all. I have totaly supported the war in this very forum many a time. This is only meant to show the point that most people have fallen asleep to the fact that we are normaly lied to by our leaders. It concerns me that it is so accepted. A little more outcry might help if we say enough is enough.

Politicians are going to do whatever it takes to get elected. I think it should take honesty.

-D

 

[JimG]

Darrel:

This is only meant to show the point that most people have fallen asleep to the fact that we are normaly lied to by our leaders.

But it disturbs me that we seem to take it for granted that our leaders lie to us, unless we have certain knowledge of this fact. Do you think that representatives, senators, staffers, presidents, governors, government workers, state legislators, etc—do they all get up in the morning thinking, “oh, lets’ see, what shall I lie to the people about today?” That strikes me as an incredibly cynical viewpoint which is not supported by the facts.

Calif. Gov. Schwarzenegger apparently lost on all the propositions he wanted to get passed by the California voters. Was he engaged in lying to the people to get them passed? Were his opponents lying to the people to prevent them from passing? Does anyone agree that politicians can legitimately disagree about policy issues?

 

[Darrel]

JimG:

But it disturbs me that we seem to take it for granted that our leaders lie to us, unless we have certain knowledge of this fact. Do you think that representatives, senators, staffers, presidents, governors, government workers, state legislators, etc—do they all get up in the morning thinking, “oh, lets’ see, what shall I lie to the people about today?” That strikes me as an incredibly cynical viewpoint which is not supported by the facts.

Calif. Gov. Schwarzenegger apparently lost on all the propositions he wanted to get passed by the California voters. Was he engaged in lying to the people to get them passed? Were his opponents lying to the people to prevent them from passing? Does anyone agree that politicians can legitimately disagree about policy issues?

I think there is the truth and then there is what they release to the public. A simple run for office consists of about a million false promises that are geared twords getting people excited about the candidate that will never be realised.

Do they know this? Of course they do. It’s not about the truth it’s about how the politician makes himself/herself “appear” to the public. People are so numb to this fact that it never even gets questioned. I dont think they get up every day and plan out some series of lies. Yet lies are told on a regular basis to manipulate things like the media to there advantage. Everything is about information control in politics and the truth comes in at a distant second. Is this what God wants?

-D

 

[JimG]

Perhaps the solution is to return to doing it the way the founders intended. For presidential elections, for example, there were no primaries. The people didn’t vote, (and still don’t vote) directly for a presidential candidate. They voted for some local people whose judgment they trusted, and all of those people then gathered together to elect a president.

Direct voting or its near equivalent, which is what we have now, means candidates must spend a ton of money on political advertising. That means they must raise a ton of money from contributors who will then expect favors or particular policies.

Or alternatively, just prohibit all TV political advertising. That’s where all the money goes.

 

[koda]

JimG:

Calif. Gov. Schwarzenegger apparently lost on all the propositions he wanted to get passed by the California voters. Was he engaged in lying to the people to get them passed? Were his opponents lying to the people to prevent them from passing? Does anyone agree that politicians can legitimately disagree about policy issues?

Personally, I think he lies. I live in Los Angeles and am working on my Master’s degree to teach. When Arnold was running for gov. he went on and on about how education would be is top priority. Once in office he made a deal to borrow millions from the education budget. The Cal. teachers are now in a lawsuit to make him pay it back as he has refused to do so. When the teacher’s, nurses and other public employee unions fought his efforts to cut their salarys and benefits (as well as his efforts to make class sizes larger and cut the nurse/patient ration requirement and privatize their pensions) they fought back. In this week’s election he had an intiative that would have made it nearly impossible for public worker unions to use due to fight political battles. It lost big time, as did his other education “reforms”. He promised he wouldn’t take any special interest money - that he had enough money of his own. Just last week a story in the paper confirmed that he took $250,000 from Wal-Mart just after vetoeing some pro-labor legislation that they didn’t like.

It looks like most pols are so closely tied to big money, on which they depend for campaign costs, that there is no way they can consider the little folks who actually voted for them. Reform is definitely needed.

As for why we accept it - we shouldn’t. I think that many of the millions of registered voters who don’t vote is more of a silent protest than apathy. Who do you vote for when they all stink?