Do we serve God or money?

[ahollars]

The rich young man asked Jesus what he needed to do to earn eternal life.
Respect the Commandments, answered Jesus.
I have always done that, replied the rich young man.
Then, Jesus added, sell all you have, give it to the poor and follow me.

Do you get it now?

Sell all your belongings… to whom?

Jesus ministry relied on the charity of others. There will always be people working the fields. The fields will never work themselves. God told Adam, “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food.” Manual labor, and the money that comes with the work is not corrupt by itself. God only wants 10% of our treasure and time. Most faithful people work to provide for their families, donate to charity, and have enough spare time to do volunteer work. I will define rich as having enough money left over to be an occasion of sin, forgetting the less fortunate, or neglecting your other duties. Any of those scenarios is immoral. Note it doesn’t necessarily take that much money to get you into trouble.

But perspective is necessary. $60,000 a year is alot of money for a young man straight out of college. It is not for a man like me, married with four kids and a fifth on the way. But would I be rich if I could afford a six-pack every Friday? Yes, I would, so I don’t.

Notice out of the Apostles, none of them had young children. Also note that Jesus doesn’t condemn the people who purchase the rich man’s belongings.

 

[Mark77]

Wow, money seems to have struck a nerve!

The OP is right, we should only work for the bare necessities. Not for 3 computers or 5 tv’s or 6 cell phones or a 2nd house or 3 cars or season tickets, etc…

We must listen to what Jesus told us that necessity is, not what society tells us that it is.

Pray and ask for God’s guidance.

"And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25 And which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his span of life? 26 If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if God so clothes the grass which is alive in the field today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O men of little faith! 29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be of anxious mind. 30 **For all the nations of the world seek these things; and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things shall be yours as well. 32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. **33 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. (Lk 12:22-33)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[mommyof4]

The rich young man asked Jesus what he needed to do to earn eternal life.
Respect the Commandments, answered Jesus.
I have always done that, replied the rich young man.
Then, Jesus added, sell all you have, give it to the poor and follow me.

Do you get it now?

I’m curious, have YOU done this? You must be accessing the computer and internet somewhere.

 

[newguy40]

I am not mimizing the question as it is valid.

Perhaps not everyone is intended to be St Francis or St Peter? Perhaps God only wants us to be the most authentic and holy person that we can be. That is pretty much what I pray for every day. I am a husband and father. That is my vocation. Perhaps that is the service God has intended for me? I trust God will show me otherwise. I ask him often enough

Best wishes in your seeking. Nothing wrong with questions…

 

[Trishie]

Really, I will never stop marvelling at the human mind.
Especially the thoughts that come out when one wants to justify himself.

Benedict, not everyone has had the disillusioning experiences you have. It’s very sad that you have been hurt this way.
My experiences of others is of numerous good and honest Christians. I’ve not lived in the countries you have, according to a post some time ago…but I live in Australia, and know many Catholics whose faith and generosity is amazing. I can give examples, but I have in earlier posts some time ago so will leave it at that. When I visited The U.S. I came to know wonderful Catholics, as well as on these forums and PMs.
Best wishes

 

[JRKH]

I’m curious, have YOU done this? You must be accessing the computer and internet somewhere.

Actually he may be accessing us through a computer at the library for all I know.
Regardless of his particular situation, the basic question remains valid.
When I go to Mass and see expensive sports cars in the parking lot I wonder about the values of some of us,
In fact I asked a similar question awhile back to the effect of “how much money/things is too much” for a christian. The responses there were also disappointing.

I bleieve that we all have our calling - whether to “religious life” or to some kind of “lay ministry” (which includes parenthood). Each has certain needs and responsibilities.

My suggestion for most of us would be to read St Francis DeSales writings on Holiness for those “in the world”. I can’t think of the name of the book but he addresses how those who are called to service “in the world” can live and grow in holiness regardless of our "Station in Life.

Also, Just for the Record, Money is not the root of all evil - Love of money is - - And Pride is a deadly sin. Let those with ears hear and those with eyes see.

my 2c

Peace
James

 

[nsper7]

Actually he may be accessing us through a computer at the library for all I know.
Regardless of his particular situation, the basic question remains valid.
When I go to Mass and see expensive sports cars in the parking lot I wonder about the values of some of us,
In fact I asked a similar question awhile back to the effect of “how much money/things is too much” for a christian. The responses there were also disappointing.

I bleieve that we all have our calling - whether to “religious life” or to some kind of “lay ministry” (which includes parenthood). Each has certain needs and responsibilities.

My suggestion for most of us would be to read St Francis DeSales writings on Holiness for those “in the world”. I can’t think of the name of the book but he addresses how those who are called to service “in the world” can live and grow in holiness regardless of our "Station in Life.

Also, Just for the Record, Money is not the root of all evil - Love of money is - - And Pride is a deadly sin. Let those with ears hear and those with eyes see.

my 2c

Peace
James

I remember that old thread and debate it spawned, although I was a Protestant back then. The reason I know I response fairly vehemently is because it seems like the OP and some others try to promote a personal opinion or a counseled ideal as a Church precept. If someone feels called to seek perfection, then more power to them, and if they wish to counsel others, then that is good too; however, treating an evangelical counsel as a precept is incorrect doctrinally.

My understanding of Church doctrine (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that as long as a person earns their money legally and morally and gives a portion of their income for the service of the Church and to aide others, then they are free to use their resources as they see fit (as long as they are not spending it on sin or illegality*). Thus, if someone can afford a nice sports car or a second house, then it is not sinful for them to purchase one. Now, might it be a ‘higher’/more noble use of those funds to give to the poor, etc.? Probably, but in terms of Church doctrine, it is not a sin issue. In terms of how much of a person’s wealth should go to the Church and the poor…well, that is a major gray area (newadvent.org/cathen/15571a.htm, newadvent.org/cathen/01328f.htm).

EDIT: Pride is not so much the issue, it is covetousness (greed) and usually that is accounted as a venial sin unless you are motivated to acquire gain illegally/immorally (i.e. theft, lying, cheating, etc.).*

 

[JRKH]

I remember that old thread and debate it spawned, although I was a Protestant back then. The reason I know I response fairly vehemently is because it seems like the OP and some others try to promote a personal opinion or a counseled ideal as a Church precept. If someone feels called to seek perfection, then more power to them, and if they wish to counsel others, then that is good too; however, treating an evangelical counsel as a precept is incorrect doctrinally.

You make some good points here. I’m glad you remembered the thread and yes I was surprised too by the debate that ensued.
I gree with your statements above about attempting to push a personal decision on to others, but at the same time I can see the other side too. We (including me) need to be more aware of what Jesus is calling us too. We need to be continually striving to grow in holiness. Certainly we all have differing gifts in this regard, but strive we must do so that we don’t become complacent.
The thing that disappoints me in Benedicts case is that he seems to be withdrawing from the field instead of continuing the good fight. Maybe he needs to for hius own reasons but it seems that, feeling as he does about the state of fellow catholics, he needs to hang in there with us.

My understanding of Church doctrine (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that as long as a person earns their money legally and morally and gives a portion of their income for the service of the Church and to aide others, then they are free to use their resources as they see fit (as long as they are not spending it on sin or illegality*). Thus, if someone can afford a nice sports car or a second house, then it is not sinful for them to purchase one. Now, might it be a ‘higher’/more noble use of those funds to give to the poor, etc.? Probably, but in terms of Church doctrine, it is not a sin issue. In terms of how much of a person’s wealth should go to the Church and the poor…well, that is a major gray area (newadvent.org/cathen/15571a.htm*, newadvent.org/cathen/01328f.htm).
I would say that you are probably accurate in regards to Church Doctrine.
However, in reading your response, and recognizing how most people view these things, I am reninded of the OT view of “The Law” how Jesus admonished His followers to go beyond “The Law” in Holiness.
I cannot and will not say that anyone is wrong for applying the Letter of Church Doctrine, but such things strike me as “Aiming for Purgatory” rather than Heaven. It strikes me as less - How can I grow closer to God and more like - What can I get away with.
I’m not pointing a finger - just placing a thought out there for consideration.

EDIT: Pride is not so much the issue, it is covetousness (greed) and usually that is accounted as a venial sin unless you are motivated to acquire gain illegally/immorally (i.e. theft, lying, cheating, etc.).

If one wishes to grow in holiness then one needs to not offend God even in small matters. Sin is Sin, Big or Small, and it wounds our souls and hurts He whom we are to LOVE with our whole being.

Peace
James

 

[brigid12]

I guess people will say I am too harsh, but I only see myself as someone who tries to be a true Christian.

Remember, the tax collector and the pharisee.

And, being a true Christian means being a “radical” Christian.
My question to you is this:

Do you really think you can have a job in the corrupt materialistic capitalist world and serve God at the same time?

It’s very hard, but that’s what God has called the majority of us to and obedience to Christ with humility and love need to be our path to sanctification.

Do you really think you can serve money from 9 to 5 and then God after that ?

I hope I don’t separate work from God, and that I show my Christianity throughout my work day, also, thinking about what is fair to my employer and showing my Christianity through my love for others of His Creation, my lack of arrogance (humility) and my confidence in Him.

I know not everyone has the ability to be a true Christian, but it worries me to see that there are so few.

God’s Mercy is what we can fully rely on, however it is worrisome when we think “as the world thinks”.

Didn’t Jesus leave his job as a carpenter in order to fulfill his mission ?

Yes, and some, who are called by God to religious life will also do that - might that be you?

If it is so easy to be a true Christian while having a job: wouldn’t St Francis remain in the cloth shop with his father ?

Thankfully, God has not called me to be another St. Francis, however whoever is so called needs to be obedient to Him and is given the necessary graces to fulfill his task. I so admire your zeal for the Lord!

Wouldn’t the apostles be able to to fulfill their mission while they went on fishing ?

Depends on what God’s Will for them was. I imagine some disciples of his (not apostles) did go back to whatever they did to feed themselves and their children.

All I want to do is for you to ask yourselves these questions.

 

[JRKH]

My understanding of Church doctrine (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that as long as a person earns their money legally and morally and gives a portion of their income for the service of the Church and to aide others, then **they are free to use their resources as they see fit (as long as they are not spending it on sin or illegality **). Thus, if someone can afford a nice sports car or a second house, then it is not sinful for them to purchase one. Now, might it be a ‘higher’/more noble use of those funds to give to the poor, etc.? Probably, but in terms of Church doctrine, it is not a sin issue. In terms of how much of a person’s wealth should go to the Church and the poor…well, that is a major gray area (newadvent.org/cathen/15571a.htm, newadvent.org/cathen/01328f.htm).

Just an additional thought on the “Church Doctrine” issue and more specificaly the bolded section above. Certainly this is good and clear teaching.
But what would consitute “sinful” spending in light of the teachings of Our Lord.
It is easier for a camal to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven.
That which you do to the least you do to me…
Do not worry about what you are to eat…
The two great commandments - Love of God and Love neighbor as self are the basis for all the Commandments and Law.

When one considers these commands, and then looks at how we (myself included) choose to spend our money - it should make us ask the question whether we are truly trusting in God and doing all that we can to serve him with the monies he has entrusted to us.

Again - I am not pointing fingers. I am not one worthy of casting a stone.
Just thought I’d place this thought out there for consideration.

Peace
james

 

[nsper7]

Just an additional thought on the “Church Doctrine” issue and more specificaly the bolded section above. Certainly this is good and clear teaching.
But what would consitute “sinful” spending in light of the teachings of Our Lord.
It is easier for a camal to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven.
That which you do to the least you do to me…
Do not worry about what you are to eat…
The two great commandments - Love of God and Love neighbor as self are the basis for all the Commandments and Law.

When one considers these commands, and then looks at how we (myself included) choose to spend our money - it should make us ask the question whether we are truly trusting in God and doing all that we can to serve him with the monies he has entrusted to us.

Again - I am not pointing fingers. I am not one worthy of casting a stone.
Just thought I’d place this thought out there for consideration.

Peace
james

Remember, all Scripture has to be interpreted in light of Church doctrine. I believe doctrine addresses what portion of monies should go to aiding others.

 

[JRKH]

Remember, all Scripture has to be interpreted in light of Church doctrine. I believe doctrine addresses what portion of monies should go to aiding others.

Perhaps -
But do you think that Church doctrine prevents one from giving more?

Peace
James

 

[nsper7]

Perhaps -
But do you think that Church doctrine prevents one from giving more?

Peace
James

Of course not, but you brought up passages that address the issue from a Salvific point-of-view. There is the minimum required to be ‘Saved’ (obedience to the precepts of the Church) and there is going beyond what is required in order achieve a higher level of spiritual perfection, etc. (following the evangelical counsels).

Obviously, one can always do more (after all, who can say they have fully fulfilled all the counsels), but I was responding to the specific passages you mentioned.

 

[JRKH]

Of course not, but you brought up passages that address the issue from a Salvific point-of-view. There is the minimum required to be ‘Saved’ (obedience to the precepts of the Church) and there is going beyond what is required in order achieve a higher level of spiritual perfection, etc. (following the evangelical counsels).

Obviously, one can always do more (after all, who can say they have fully fulfilled all the counsels), but I was responding to the specific passages you mentioned.

I was being a bit “tongue in cheek” with my question and you answered quite well.
The two teachings/councils do speak to what we are called to in our spiritual journeys.

These things are always slippery topics and really depend upon our seeking after things other than “Are we sinning or not” type of issues.
They require us to look at our true relationship with God and our neighbor and then to act upon that insight to the best of our ability.

Peace
James

 

[nsper7]

I was being a bit “tongue in cheek” with my question and you answered quite well.
The two teachings/councils do speak to what we are called to in our spiritual journeys.

These things are always slippery topics and really depend upon our seeking after things other than “Are we sinning or not” type of issues.
They require us to look at our true relationship with God and our neighbor and then to act upon that insight to the best of our ability.

Peace
James

But in the end, discussion seems more fruitful when discussing ‘is it sin’ issue since we can all do more to achieve perfection, but there will be always be debate on sin issues.

 

[nsper7]

What I meant is that it is hard to discuss what is required to be ‘perfect’ since we know what it is, but it is pretty much impossible to truly attain. Thus, such a conversation can easily devolve into a ‘I have done more than you’ type of thing.

 

[JRKH]

But in the end, discussion seems more fruitful when discussing ‘is it sin’ issue since we can all do more to achieve perfection, but there will be always be debate on sin issues.

Probably it is, but then what is truly fruitful is to move beyond “sin” issues (minimum required) to “Perfection” issues which is what Christ called us to.

Church doctrine is wonderful and gives us a vital structure within which to operate.
But when I see Catholic Schools struggling with tuition and such while the parents drive expensive SUV’s and taking yearly vacations to “Disneyworld” etc. I have to wonder where their priorities lay. Are tehy With God? Or are they more worldly.

Again - I’m not pointing fingers - I too am guilty and stand facing my own guilt.

Peace
James