Do We Sin After Salvation: Some say no - Part 1

[Psalm_51]

Someone wrote this and many folks recommend it. I had a problem with it:

Sin consciousness appears to be a humble position, but what it
accomplishes is to place your focus upon you and your sinfulness rather
than Jesus and His righteousness, of which you possess through the new
birth (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Here is my response:

I disagree with this. Jesus asks us to pray daily for the forgivenes of our trespasses which necessarly means we need to be conscious of our sins and reflect on them so that we can repent of them. We still sin even after salvation. In 1 Jo…hn, it says, and the writer is talking to Christians: " 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
So yes we must be conscious of our sins. Otherwise we become self-righteous and think we are better than other people and possess a Pharisitical attitude which is anything but humble. Yes we can come boldly before the throne and expect that God will forgive us when we confess and repent of our sins because God promised He would; but, we should not ignore our sins or assume that if we reflect on them and are conscious of them and we then acknowledge and confess and repent of them that we are doing something wrong or that we are necessarily not focusing on Jesus or God’s righteousness. I think you are presenting a false dichotomy here Jeff.

Some folks starting throwing around Bible verses while others implied that they no longer sin at all after they are saved and they came up with this popular buzz word “sin consciousness” which is a pejorative in their view. I hadn’t heard of this notion before. The video is their primary proof that sin consciousness is a bad thing.

Here are some of their comments:

youtube.com/watch?v=NWyVpGCb95s
No Need To Be Sin Conscious
KJV Hebrews 10:1-2
Hebrews 10
…
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

THIS IS GREAT NEWS. we do not need to be sin conscious therefore we can focus on God instead of ourselves!!!

what a great Revelation!

yes the majority of Christians believe in being sin conscious

but when did following the Majority become the right thing to do?

Many Christians are still living under the old covenant in the day of the new covenant. One of the most common areas of this is by believing in sin consciousness. This is living under the law which was fulfilled by Christ.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

“having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Colossions 2:14

You Are Perfect In God’s Eyes
…Knowing this truth has changed my life and brought me so much freedom…

Hebrews 10:12, 14, KJV
12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God… 14For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

God sees you with no flaw, spot or imperfection, so honor His Word and the finished work of His Son by saying, “Amen!” Don’t doubt your perfection in Christ.

To see yourself as far from being perfect is not modesty, but a failure to understand the perfect sacrifice that Jesus has made for you.

The Bible tells us, “For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified”. Did you get that? You have not only been sanctified, that is, made holy, but by the same offering of His body, you have been perfected. You are both holy and perfect in God’s eyes!

Your sins have been purged perfectly. Today, Jesus is seated at His Father’s right hand not because He is the Son of God (although that is true), but because His work of purging your sins is completely finished and perfect!

So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.

When you find yourself conscious of your sins, just say, “Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your wonderful work at the cross. It is a perfect work that has removed all my sins completely.

“Holy Spirit, thank You for convicting me of righteousness, not my own, but God’s righteousness given to me as a gift. Keep on convicting me in the days to come, reminding me especially when I fail that I am still the righteousness of God in Christ.”

My friend, God sees you perfect without any spot of sin. He sees you covered in the beautiful white robes of His own righteousness. He treats you like a righteous man because that is what He has made you. So expect good things to happen to you because blessings are on the head of the righteous! (Proverbs 10:6)

 

[Psalm_51]

My response to these two posts by the same person:

Whoa Nellie. Hold on there. You are running around like a spirited colt. lol
I fail to see where presenting random Scripture passages taken out of context refutes what I have written. I stand by what I said. Why would Jesus ask us to pray daily for the forgiveness of our sins if all of our sins were permanently forgiven or if it wasn’t important for us to be conscious of our sins? You can’t ask for forgiviness unless you are aware (conscious) of the fact that you have sinned. If we don’t have to ever worry about or be conscious of our sins, (once saved always saved) it seems pointless for our Lord and Savior to tell us to pray for to God DAILY for the forgiveness of those sins. Please address that question and the specific comments in my original posts and try to refrain from randomly slinging bible verses. Otherwise we will be talking past each other and neither one of us will understand each other. I hope we can have a normal conversation whcih will be edifying to both of us.
Now I’ve come into your house and I mean no disrespect so if you would prefer that I leave, I will do so.

Then one individual began responding by quoting Scripture passes to prove sin consciousness is bad and she essentially admitted that she doesn’t sin or see a need to confess her sin. Here is the back and forth I had with this person:

She: can sin reside in the temple of the Holy Spirit?

Me: No. Are you saying that you never sin xxxxx?

She: ‎1 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
I have my robe of Righteousness on…my sins were crucified with Jesus.

Me: xxxx, you said: “my sins were crucified with Jesus.”
I agree that Jesus died for ALL of the sins of the world. You use the past tense “were” crucified. So I ask again, are you saying that since you were saved that you have never sinned or will ever sin again?

Me again: Your Scripture reference which says that he who does what is sinful is of the devil. Yes that is true. But in your view, doesn’t that contradict what Jesus himself said when he asks us to pray for the forgiveness of our sins? You seem to imply that we will never act sinful after we are saved and that we cannot be of the devil after salvation. That is unbiblical and your reference is taken out of context or at minimum your understanding is not reconciled to Jesus’ own words. God can’t contradict his own word and Jesus knew that we would continue to sin continually throughout our lives and that’s why when he told us how to pray to God that he told us to pray DAILY to God for the forgiveness of OUR sins. Are we of the devil when we sin? I would say yes because God hates sin. And that’s exactly why Jesus tells us to confess our sins and repent and pray for forgiveness daily. Jesus died once for all of the sins of the world but God applies the merits of Christ, he applies his forgiveness to us in the real world though the Church, through confession, prayer, reading his word, and through our contrite hearts and sorrow for having sinned against him.

 

[Psalm_51]

Me: For reflection from a Catholic source:

"Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins …are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12).

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God, who had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8; note the plural “men”). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it. "

She: Maybe it’s time for you to learn about the old and New Covenant…

Me: That’s a rather condescending remark Dawn. As someone who has studied covenent theology, I think I’ve thought about that quite a bit and can hold my own. You still didn’t answer my question. Why not?
I’ll ask it again: Since your salvation, …do you think that you have never sinned or that you will never sin again while on earth?

She refused to answer the question. Some time later, I wrote:
I’ll take your silence to mean that you do think you have been without sin since salvation and don’t think you are capable of sinning in the future:

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we conf…ess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." 1 John 1: 8-10

Her parting words were:

Romans 6:11
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

‎1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Correctly divide the Word --Timothy 2:15

‎1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

here is your answer you so desire–
Romans 4:15 …And where there is no law there is no transgression.​

And one final quote from a supporter of sin consciousness:
Our actions have Nothing to do with us being sinners in the first place. It was the action of one mans Adam disobedience. We are born sinners in Adam before we do anything good or bad. That why we must be born again in Christ. In the law pe…ople had to bring a scrafice without spot or blemish for their sins then the priest would examine the sacrifice"not the man" because the man was sinful. That was only a shadow of the Final sacrifice. When we are born again in Christ and we fall short / sin the Father looks at the scrafice Jesus Christ and Jesus stands between us and says the dept has been paid!
as for 1 John 1:9 . It is important to understand the history of why the letter was written. John was writing this letter to believers who were dealing with some unbelievers called the Gnostics.
That verse is directed to the unbelievers.
Don’t give up so soon wipe the dust off your bible and open it up!​

That ast comment was directed toward me because I said I thought it was time to dust off my feet and move on. I wished them God’s peace as I left.

I found this quite interesting. Any thoughts about this notion of sin consciousness or how to give a biblical response to it? I ended up leaving that thread

 

[AndrewA]

It is hard to argue with someone determined to be a fool.
Let them throw out 2000+ years of human knowledge if they know better.

 

[PJM]

Sin consciousness appears to be a humble position, but what it
accomplishes is to place your focus upon you and your sinfulness rather
than Jesus and His righteousness, of which you possess through the new
birth (2 Cor. 5:21).

There are many problems with this of late theology prompted by radio, and then TV time restraints broadcast.

It is completely unbiblical when viewed in light of the ENTIRE NT.

It denies the very purpose God Created us, and our very purpose fo being

Isa.43 V. 7 AND 21 “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” [21]“the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

There are BILLIONS of planets and stars; yet only one: PLANET EARTH has the ability to sustain life. WHY?

On PLANET EARTH there are MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVING THINGS; but only one; humanity has the God-like Spiritual gifts of a mind an intellect [ability to reason and make decissions /choices … animals can’t add, subtract or mutiply], & FREEWILL enabling us not just to know “good and evil” BUT to freely choose good or evil, NONE of these Spiritual gifts can be quantified; yet the very fact that you are able to read and comprehend this message proves there existence. WHY?
**

One would do well to take out your bible and READ the following: 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 5:16-17, and John 20: 19-23, Mt. 16:19, & 18:18**

Understand the bible when some teaching is repeated it has GREATER signifiance.

And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

“SIN” IS MENTIONED 414 TIMES IN THE NT. WHY? READ 1 Jn. 1: 8-10

**Matt.18: 6-7 **"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.[MANY Protestant Ministers have MUCH to fear based on this verse “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!” & Mt. 23:15]

**Romans 6:11-16 **So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. [BUT] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have [meaning SHOULD HAVE] no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rom. 7: 8-13 [PAUL speaking of his own personal fight with sin]"But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; [11] **For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. ** “Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.”

To deny that we all sin EVEN AFTER BECOMMING a child of God; is absurd; a lie! Sadly all of us sin! That is part of the CROSS we bear; that is why Jesus Himseld institutd the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness of sin-Confession [John 20: 19-23]. READ IT!

ONLY Humanity is so GIFTED in order that we MIGHT FREELY CHOOSE to Know [and Obey!], Love and Serve God…WHY

BECASUE ONLY HUMANITY CAN DO THIS!

OSAS denies the very reason we were CREATED by God.

The Idea that God would suffer so intensley and we get a free pass is redicilious. Look at what God did to Moses for simply hitting the rock twice instead of once… Look at what God did to Adam an Eve [and us] for eating an apple. God’s justice is GOD’s JUSTICE!

The GREATEST failing of humanity today is that we no-longer ABHOR sin! God is Merciful; BUT GOD ALSO BEING GOD HAS TO BE JUST!

 

[Carlan]

That kind kid themselves. They avoid the narrow gate.

You did what we are called to do, you defended the faith, the Truth.

Because they would not listen to the Truth you did what Jesus told the Apostles to do “Shake the dust from your feet”(Matt 10: 14)God bless, Peace, Carlan

 

[COPLAND_3]

I always got the impression that that way of thinking is mislead and arrogant. It really annoys me so much that I can’t stand to talk theology with people who believe that kind of stuff. The first epistle of St. John is clear proof that it is wrong as wrong can be, “If we say that we do not sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” 1:8

 

[Psalm_51]

I always got the impression that that way of thinking is mislead and arrogant. It really annoys me so much that I can’t stand to talk theology with people who believe that kind of stuff. The first epistle of St. John is clear proof that it is wrong as wrong can be, “If we say that we do not sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” 1:8

The response I got to that was that this was not a letter to Christians but to Gnostics. lol

 

[Psalm_51]

The primary proof text for their beliefs was Hebrews 10: 1-2 where it says in the KJV:

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Note the words “conscience of sins.” It seems to me that they are taking this way out of context and making it a pretext for their own thelogy. Anyone care to exegete this passage in its context to refute their belief?

Looking at this verse in the RSV

Here is the same verse in the NIV:

Hebrews 10
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

 

[Third_Day]

=Psalm 51;6914877]The primary proof text for their beliefs was Hebrews 10: 1-2

If they would continue to read in Hebrews they would read this:

Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It says there is no sacrifice for someone who sins deliberately after knowing the truth. Even the sacrifice on the cross will not help those who deliberately sin. (Only through perfect contrition can we be re-united to Christ)

I don’t think I would ever say this to those that believe in this “no conscience of sin” but I truly believe this is a doctrine of demons. Who else but the father of lies would plant such a belief into the minds of men.
It reminds me of what the father of lies said to Eve after God told her that if she ate of the tree of life “shall you touch it, you shall die”. Satan then said to Eve “You will not die”. This belief that our sins cannot condemn us once we believe is nothing more than a license to sin
As Paul clearly states “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

 

[Psalm_51]

If they would continue to read in Hebrews they would read this:

Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It says there is no sacrifice for someone who sins deliberately after knowing the truth. Even the sacrifice on the cross will not help those who deliberately sin. (Only through perfect contrition can we be re-united to Christ)

I don’t think I would ever say this to those that believe in this “no conscience of sin” but I truly believe this is a doctrine of demons. Who else but the father of lies would plant such a belief into the minds of men.
It reminds me of what the father of lies said to Eve after God told her that if she ate of the tree of life “shall you touch it, you shall die”. Satan then said to Eve “You will not die”. This belief that our sins cannot condemn us once we believe is nothing more than a license to sin
As Paul clearly states “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

Good point! Thanks.

 

[Psalm_51]

There are many problems with this of late theology prompted by radio, and then TV time restraints broadcast.

It is completely unbiblical when viewed in light of the ENTIRE NT.

It denies the very purpose God Created us, and our very purpose fo being

Isa.43 V. 7 AND 21 “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” [21]“the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

There are BILLIONS of planets and stars; yet only one: PLANET EARTH has the ability to sustain life. WHY?

On PLANET EARTH there are MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVING THINGS; but only one; humanity has the God-like Spiritual gifts of a mind an intellect [ability to reason and make decissions /choices … animals can’t add, subtract or mutiply], & FREEWILL enabling us not just to know “good and evil” BUT to freely choose good or evil, NONE of these Spiritual gifts can be quantified; yet the very fact that you are able to read and comprehend this message proves there existence. WHY?
**

One would do well to take out your bible and READ the following: 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 5:16-17, and John 20: 19-23, Mt. 16:19, & 18:18**

Understand the bible when some teaching is repeated it has GREATER signifiance.

And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

“SIN” IS MENTIONED 414 TIMES IN THE NT. WHY? READ 1 Jn. 1: 8-10

**Matt.18: 6-7 **"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.[MANY Protestant Ministers have MUCH to fear based on this verse “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!” & Mt. 23:15]

**Romans 6:11-16 **So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. [BUT] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have [meaning SHOULD HAVE] no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rom. 7: 8-13 [PAUL speaking of his own personal fight with sin]"But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; [11] **For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. ** “Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.”

To deny that we all sin EVEN AFTER BECOMMING a child of God; is absurd; a lie! Sadly all of us sin! That is part of the CROSS we bear; that is why Jesus Himseld institutd the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness of sin-Confession [John 20: 19-23]. READ IT!

ONLY Humanity is so GIFTED in order that we MIGHT FREELY CHOOSE to Know [and Obey!], Love and Serve God…WHY

BECASUE ONLY HUMANITY CAN DO THIS!

OSAS denies the very reason we were CREATED by God.

The Idea that God would suffer so intensley and we get a free pass is redicilious. Look at what God did to Moses for simply hitting the rock twice instead of once… Look at what God did to Adam an Eve [and us] for eating an apple. God’s justice is GOD’s JUSTICE!

The GREATEST failing of humanity today is that we no-longer ABHOR sin! God is Merciful; BUT GOD ALSO BEING GOD HAS TO BE JUST!

Thanks to you and everyone else. I still encourage more discussion of this if anyone is interested in chiming in.

 

[Psalm_51]

Here is my summary that I wrote so that the next time I have a discussion with someone, I can put on the full armor of God. Third Day, I hope you don’t mind me using your words my friend:

Some Christians falsely believe that they rarely sin, or that they don’t sin at all after they have been saved. (Born Again) This false teaching (who is filling people’s minds with this heresy?) breeds self-righteousness and hypocrisy. There is a reason that Jesus tells us to pray DAILY for the forgiveness of our sins. And even if one wrongly believes that Jesus never implied that we ask for on a daily basis for forgiveness, regardless of the time that has passed since you last prayed the “Lord’s Prayer” (Our Father), he still says that we should ask God for the forgiveness of our sins when we pray. And in 1 John, we read: 1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version) " 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." The author was talking to Christians. We know this from his concluding remarks in 1 John: 5:13, “I write these things to you who believe in the Son of God…”(NIV) And throughout the letter he exhorts his Christain brothers not to love the world, to beware of false teachers, to love one another, not to continue sinning the same sin, to test the spirits, and that to show our love to God, we need to obey Him. He even writes in Chapter 5: 16 that “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death [not a mortal sin but a venial sin], he should pray and God will give him life.” (Brackets mine) So it is absurd for any Christian to bellieve that he/she never sins after they are saved. This is the lie of the evil one who would rather give you false confidence that you never need to confess your sins (and unconfessed mortal sins will lead to damnation and Lucifer would love to have you join him in hell) as we are exhorted to do:
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Again, the writer was speaking to Christians, not Gnostics or unbelilevers.

According to Scipture, we must confess our mortal sins to a priest, who Jesus atuhorized to forgive sins (and our venial sins directly to God) for God to forgive us and purify (sanctify) us from all unrighteousness. This is one beautiful thing about the Catholic Church. God provided a way for us to receive forgiveness of and absolution from our sins. If we repent and are contrite, we know the joy of forgiveness, our guilt is removed, and we are free once again to live according to His purpose.

catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110sbs.asp

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

Some use a text in Hebrews which they take out of context to justify their view that we should not be “sin conscience” and ultimately many of these folks actually believe they simply do not sin after salvation. A friend wrote this:

If they would continue to read in Hebrews they would read this:

Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It says there is no sacrifice for someone who sins deliberately after knowing the truth. Even the sacrifice on the cross will not help those who deliberately sin. (Only through perfect contrition can we be re-united to Christ)

I don’t think I would ever say this to those that believe in this “no conscience of sin” but I truly believe this is a doctrine of demons. Who else but the father of lies would plant such a belief into the minds of men.
It reminds me of what the father of lies said to Eve after God told her that if she ate of the tree of life “shall you touch it, you shall die”. Satan then said to Eve “You will not die”. This belief that our sins cannot condemn us once we believe is nothing more than a license to sin
As Paul clearly states “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

So it certainly is possible to sin after salvation, and even to sin seriously. Who can forget the words of Jesus who said: “33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:33) KJV Now that’s a pretty serious sin that Jesus would deny you before God, yet we know that St. Peter did that very thing. Was Jesus lying? Will St. Peter be denied before God and go to hell? Absolutely not! There must have been a way for Peter because we know that Jesus used Peter after His death. What happened then? Why does Jesus now not deny Peter before God after Peter, a Christian, seriously sinned and denied three times to men that he didn’t even know Jesus? Peter confessed and repented. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So to say that Christians never sin is completely false and represents a false teaching, a false Gospel.

 

[Psalm_51]

The Guru on that thread chimed in to my comments about the “Our Father”

He wrote:

The model prayer taught by Jesus (the Lord’s prayer is in John 17) can be seen from the standpoint that Jesus was teaching from the old covenant law, which concerning forgiveness of sins, that we are forgiven AS or WHEN we forgive others. This is law because the Scripture is filled with passages that say though Jesus’ sacrifice we are forgiven, our sins have been redeemed and washed away… we have been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness as 1 John 1:9 says. ALL means ALL and this includes past, present, and future. The Scripture says that we should forgive others because God for Christ’s sake has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32).

Thoughts? Refutations?

 

[ab75]

If they would continue to read in Hebrews they would read this:

Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It says there is no sacrifice for someone who sins deliberately after knowing the truth. Even the sacrifice on the cross will not help those who deliberately sin. (Only through perfect contrition can we be re-united to Christ)

I don’t think I would ever say this to those that believe in this “no conscience of sin” but I truly believe this is a doctrine of demons. Who else but the father of lies would plant such a belief into the minds of men.
It reminds me of what the father of lies said to Eve after God told her that if she ate of the tree of life “shall you touch it, you shall die”. Satan then said to Eve “You will not die”. This belief that our sins cannot condemn us once we believe is nothing more than a license to sin
As Paul clearly states “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

We recently had someone here use this to try to explain if someone does sin once you start to “live in the spirit” you are not really of God. He essentially believed in no sin after you have the fullness of spirit, not that it just isn’t recorded, but if you deliberately sin it’s proof you are not one of Christs.

 

[Psalm_51]

Ok, here is the reply from the guru again:

I think you’ve gravely misunderstood what many have said here regarding the actions of sin after salvation. No one would admit that they haven’t transgressed the law while they were under the law and before they received Jesus and His… righteousness.

And also, any actions in the flesh are moot because we have no confidence in the flesh, but in the spirit, which is who we really are. In our spirit, who worships God (Romans 1:9; Philippians 3:3) we do not sin because His seed remains in us and cannot sin because we are born of God (1 John 3:4-10; 5:18) and in Him is NO SIN, and because we are in Him (in the spirit) our spirit does not sin as it has been sealed and joined together with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

As someone wrote earlier, sin is transgression of the law. Therefore, since we are no longer under the law, sin is not counted against us (imputed), which is consistent with what Father spoke through the prophet Jeremiah and written in Hebrews (twice), and written by David, and cited by Paul in Romans 4: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” And “Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

If Father has said He will remember our sins no more, and if our transgressions have been removed as far as the east is to the west, and if God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES TO THEM, then why would He place a condition upon us to confess all our sins? What if we forget a sin? Or what if we are ignorant of a sin? And what about the sins we commit by NOT doing what we’re supposed to do? There are NO conditions placed upon these promises because these promises are accomplished by God and Him alone. This is what sovereign grace refers to… even though I don’t like the word “sovereign” because it is abused. God’s grace was done by Him alone and the only role we play in it is on the receiving end by faith and the confession of Jesus NOT the confession of sin. Romans 10:10.

Christians sin in the flesh because they continue to remain under the law, which makes them sin conscious (Romans 6:14; Romans 7:5, 8, 13). This is what is problematic in protestantism, which was carried over from catholicism–that somehow the church has replaced Jesus as Redeemer and Head. This is idolatry and an offense to the blood of Jesus… as you stated He who counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing… and how do you count it unholy? By despising the fullness of its power of redemption and remission for the sins of the whole world, which sadly is manifested in a “daily confession of sins” and even worse “confessing to a priest” where you divide sins into mortal and venal. Sin is sin, my friend, regardless of its effects in the natural realm. The Scripture says if you offend the law in ONE point, you are GUILTY OF ALL.

When those who are born again by the Spirit of God get a revelation of God’s grace and love, walking in the spirit, with their eyes firmly on Jesus, the scripture says they will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16; Romans 6:1-14; Ephesians 3:19).

The reason Christians sin again is because they have been taught to be mindful of their behavior instead of Jesus, that Father hates sin more than He loves them. This is so WRONG!!! and not according to the gospel. The church (both catholic and protestant) has preached the message of the “Christian life” of “not sinning anymore” declaring this to be the truth. This is FAR from truth…

Christianity is about Jesus and there is no room for discussion about what true godliness is as it is written: “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” [1 Timothy 3:16]

Thoughts?

 

[PJM]

=Third Day;6915085]If they would continue to read in Hebrews they would read this:

Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

It says there is no sacrifice for someone who sins deliberately after knowing the truth. Even the sacrifice on the cross will not help those who deliberately sin. (Only through perfect contrition can we be re-united to Christ)

I don’t think I would ever say this to those that believe in this “no conscience of sin” but I truly believe this is a doctrine of demons. Who else but the father of lies would plant such a belief into the minds of men.
It reminds me of what the father of lies said to Eve after God told her that if she ate of the tree of life “shall you touch it, you shall die”. Satan then said to Eve “You will not die”. This belief that our sins cannot condemn us once we believe is nothing more than a license to sin
As Paul clearly states “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

Excellent post:thumbsup: THANKS

 

[Psalm_51]

One last comment made by the guru:

you wrote, “1 John 3:9 is not difficult to understand because when you sin mortally, you lose grace, the participation in God’s nature, and God no longer “abides in” you.”

How does Paul say that we fall from grace… is it through sin?.. NO, it’s not… a person falls from grace when he believes he is justified by the law. (See Galatians 5:4)

You cannot “sin” your salvation away for this would infer that sin is more powerful than grace… but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

The sin unto death John refers to in 1 John 3 is rejection of the payment for sins… also known as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 10:26-31 also Hebrews 6:4-6).

Jesus said, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you. So if God “no longer abides in you” then it is because we have rejected Jesus and returned to our own self-righteousness.

I’m exhausted.

 

[PJM]

=Psalm Ok, here is the reply from the guru again:

Thoughts?

While no-longer surprized I am nevertheless amazed with the frequency of biblical misunderstanding of our Protestant Brothern. Quite commonly Protestants take statements that are not stricly literal and say “this is fact.” [As in the post that says those who knoe Christ can no -longer sin because we are now under grace; no-longer under the law.]Then turn around and take what actually is litteral and attempt to apply there own meaning to it. Examples incluse the Eucharist detailed by five different NT authors; Matt. 16:15-19 especilly v. 19, John 20:19-23. All Jesus SPEAKING; ALL Literal, all deniend by most Protestants. GO FIGURE:shrug:

When Paul speaks of sin being attached to law, he speaks of the “Old Laws” attachd to the Commandments; all 300 PLUS. What is actually being said is that one can’t sin IF, there are no wrongs, no evils, no bad things, no rules or regulations. WHY?

Because in order to sin humanity has to freely choose to DO EVIL, CHOOSE what is bad, select what is immoral by free choice. One can’t sin by accicent. PAUL IS NOT SAYING THAT SIN IS NO-LONGER POSSIBLE; Paul is only saying that the definition of sin has been again defined by Christ. NOT in New Laws but Laws GOD ordains us to follow.

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

How many of us can even resite the Commandments?

How many of us KNOW that the Comandments are NOT 10 possible sins? Rather they are 10 Catagories of sins that fall under these specific headings. AND YES THIS IS BIBLICALLY authorized.

Only The CC Fathers can determine what is meant!

Matt.5:
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Now look at Mt. 16:19, Mt. 18:18 "Binding and Loosing"is unlimited authority to Govern the Church that Christ Founded]; then read John 20:22-23 TAKE these words of Jesus LITERALLY!

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Salvatore123]

Pardon me if I misunderstand the original question, which I take it to be the title of the thread: Do we sin after salvation? I will respond with certain scenarios:

1. Can a person sin before attaining the age of reason (usually around 7 years old)? The answer is no. Someone that young does not have the ability to know right from wrong, and without that developed ability, that person cannot sin. Sin, by definition, requires doing something “wrong” (that is, turning away from God) and KNOWING that what you are doing is wrong.
2. Can a person sin after attaining the age of reason? Of course. I know of no one, other than Jesus Christ and the Blessed mother, both of who died without sin.
3. Can we be “saved” before death? Yes. Provided we make a good confession, confess all of our mortal sins, be sincerely contrite, and commit no mortal sins before we die. The status of our soul in purgatory will depend on the number of venial sins on our soul at the time of our death, and the beatific vision enjoyment will depend both on the status of our soul at death, as well as how much knowledge we had of God and his church (thus, the reason for the “many rooms in heaven” response from Jesus).
4. Once we are forgiven all of our mortal sins by making a good confession and being truly contrite, are we guaranteed salvation? Absolutely not. We have absolutely no way of knowing (unless we made a good confession, was sincerely contrite, and was about to be put to death in the form of a death penalty) whether we will commit a mortal sin before we die so as to “take away” our chance at salvation. So, have we achieved salvation at the moment we made a good confession and confessed and were forgiven all of our mortal sins? Again - no. Salvation (if we are entitled to it)occurs at the moment of death and not sooner.
5. I have begun to see on this forum several posts making the aburd contention that we can be forgiven our sins AFTER we die, and that even people in Hell can leave, if they truly repent. Pardon me, but that has to be the most ignorant theology I have ever heard. If someone believes people in Hell can leave by pleading with God, then what is the point of living a good life and being sorry for our sins, while we are still alive? I am pretty sure that 99.9999999999% of people in hell desperately want to come out. Too bad - ain’t happening. The determination of where our soul will go (Hell vs. purgatory/heaven) depends on the status of our soul at the time of death - not before and definitely not after.

I hope I did not miss something in this thread. When I read the title, I was truly confused (and may still be) - it sounds like someone is asking if man can sin after he has reached purgatory or heaven. And I have NEVER heard of such a theology being taught.