Do We Sin After Salvation: Some say no - Part 1

[Carlan]

One last comment made by the guru:

I’m exhausted.

Psalm51, Do you mind refering to the forum the guru was operating in. was it an Answers? If so for how long did he get away with it!
Peace, Carlan

 

[Third_Day]

One last comment made by the guru: How does Paul say that we fall from grace… is it through sin?.. NO, it’s not… a person falls from grace when he believes he is justified by the law. (See Galatians 5:4)
.

The “guru” fails to put Paul in context. Paul is speaking to first century Jews who believed that they were justified by keeping the laws of circumcision, festivals, dietary laws. It other words they believed they could work their way to heaven. This become obvious when you look at the whole passage

Galations 5:2-12 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

For the Jews this teaching of grace and loving your neighbor was something new. For over a thousand years they had been taught they could only be saved by keeping the old law. THis is why they had a hard time accepting the Gentiles who didn’t have the old law and now could be saved by grace just like them.

What the guru is doing is interpreting scripture through Catholic vs non-Catholic pair of glasses instead of Jew and Gentile from the first century.

What he is preaching is a license to sin. He has bought into the teaching that he is a filthy rag that cannot help but sin but is forgiven anyway because he is a believer. This is a perversion of the gospel.

These folks were believers too and Paul said to them “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you as I warned you before that those who do such things shalll not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19

What Paul is speaking about there is the moral law that is still in effect for all christians even those who think they are already saved and have no conscience of sin.

Paul tells us that here: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God but the doers of the law who will be justified” Rom.2:13

“For neither circumcision counts nor uncircumcision. What counts is keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor. 7:19

 

[Psalm_51]

Psalm51, Do you mind refering to the forum the guru was operating in. was it an Answers? If so for how long did he get away with it!
Peace, Carlan

I stumbled across this comment in Facebook reading what a friend of a friend wrote. I have evangelicals who “friend” me sometimes when they read what I write. ( I typically ask when someone wants to friend me why they want to especially when I don’t know them) I accept most people as friends who I know are Christians whether they be Protestant or Catholic. I asked the friend (not the guru) whether he thinks he doesn’t sin anymore after salvation and he said he does. And he has not chosen to make any comments on the thread and is just observing the back and forth.

I wish it was here on our forum so more knowledgable folks than myself could offer their views.

 

[Psalm_51]

While no-longer surprized I am nevertheless amazed with the frequency of biblical misunderstanding of our Protestant Brothern. Quite commonly Protestants take statements that are not stricly literal and say “this is fact.” [As in the post that says those who knoe Christ can no -longer sin because we are now under grace; no-longer under the law.]Then turn around and take what actually is litteral and attempt to apply there own meaning to it. Examples incluse the Eucharist detailed by five different NT authors; Matt. 16:15-19 especilly v. 19, John 20:19-23. All Jesus SPEAKING; ALL Literal, all deniend by most Protestants. GO FIGURE:shrug:

When Paul speaks of sin being attached to law, he speaks of the “Old Laws” attachd to the Commandments; all 300 PLUS. What is actually being said is that one can’t sin IF, there are no wrongs, no evils, no bad things, no rules or regulations. WHY?

Because in order to sin humanity has to freely choose to DO EVIL, CHOOSE what is bad, select what is immoral by free choice. One can’t sin by accicent. PAUL IS NOT SAYING THAT SIN IS NO-LONGER POSSIBLE; Paul is only saying that the definition of sin has been again defined by Christ. NOT in New Laws but Laws GOD ordains us to follow.

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

How many of us can even resite the Commandments?

How many of us KNOW that the Comandments are NOT 10 possible sins? Rather they are 10 Catagories of sins that fall under these specific headings. AND YES THIS IS BIBLICALLY authorized.

Only The CC Fathers can determine what is meant!

Matt.5:
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Now look at Mt. 16:19, Mt. 18:18 "Binding and Loosing"is unlimited authority to Govern the Church that Christ Founded]; then read John 20:22-23 TAKE these words of Jesus LITERALLY!

Love and prayers,
Pat

Very good points. Can folks view this forum who have not registered? Perhaps I could invite him over here to dialogue with us. I think it would be very interesting.

 

[Psalm_51]

The “guru” fails to put Paul in context. Paul is speaking to first century Jews who believed that they were justified by keeping the laws of circumcision, festivals, dietary laws. It other words they believed they could work their way to heaven. This become obvious when you look at the whole passage

Galations 5:2-12 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

For the Jews this teaching of grace and loving your neighbor was something new. For over a thousand years they had been taught they could only be saved by keeping the old law. THis is why they had a hard time accepting the Gentiles who didn’t have the old law and now could be saved by grace just like them.

What the guru is doing is interpreting scripture through Catholic vs non-Catholic pair of glasses instead of Jew and Gentile from the first century.

What he is preaching is a license to sin. He has bought into the teaching that he is a filthy rag that cannot help but sin but is forgiven anyway because he is a believer. This is a perversion of the gospel.

These folks were believers too and Paul said to them “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you as I warned you before that those who do such things shalll not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19

What Paul is speaking about there is the moral law that is still in effect for all christians even those who think they are already saved and have no conscience of sin.

Paul tells us that here: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God but the doers of the law who will be justified” Rom.2:13

“For neither circumcision counts nor uncircumcision. What counts is keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor. 7:19

As always, you make a solid case. Thanks. I think I’m going to invite this person here and give him a chance to defend his theology. We’ll see if he takes us up on it.

 

[Psalm_51]

I have made an invitation to Jeff (guru) and anyone else on that Facebook thread to come over and chime in. Because you can’t read the facebook pages, I’m going to present randomly some of my own comments that I made so you can see what I’ve been saying to them:

The Catholic Church, the historical Church founded by Jesus Christ and I disagree with your intepretation. I think the passage in 1 John means exactly what it so clearly stated and you seem to be twisting its meaning to conform to your preconceived notions of your own personal theology of forensic justification and righteousness. So I expect Carlisle that you also join the bandwagon of those who think they don’t sin anymore? This is simply unbiblical and hopefully you will see some day that you are in error.
God does not speak with forked tongue. What He says, He means. And the only reason that Protestants have so many thousands of denominations is that they interpret Scripture differently. Yet God still meant what He meant and there simply cannot be thousands of contradictory intepretations. Most are simply wrong. God gave the Church the responsibiilty for guarding and interpreting the Truth and we as Catholics believe that the Church, as it states in Scripture "is the pillar and foundation of all Truth.
(1 Tim 3:15)
catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

I can see from the tone of the responses that it’s time for me to wipe the dust off of my feet and move on. May Gods’ peace be with you.

Here’s to hoping that you run from the false teaching that leads you to believe that we are without sin after salvation. Your interpretation is false and someone is misleading you. As a former protestant, this is the very thing that trouble…d me. There are literally thousands of demoninations that would disagree with your interpretation of these verses we have been discussing. And that is what is so problematic about protestantism is that they believe in private interpretation while Scripture teaches that the Church is the final arbiter of the Truth and intepreting God’s Word. This is shown thoughout the NT when believers disagreed they held counclls where the leaders resolved the disputes with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This Apostolic line of authority has been passed on and rests only in the Catholic Church. I pray that God might open your eyes to this truth someday. Even Jesus revealed in Matthew 18 the steps Christians should take when one of your Christian brothers sins against you and the final authority was the Church. How can their be unity among Christians when thousands of denominations believe contradictory things about Scripture? Think about it.
God’s peace to you.

 

[Psalm_51]

Jeff’s reply: (Actually I missed this one in its entirety because I didn’t see the dropdown “See more”

Rick, I think you’ve gravely misunderstood what many have said here regarding the actions of sin after salvation. No one would admit that they haven’t transgressed the law while they were under the law and before they received Jesus and His righteousness.

And also, any actions in the flesh are moot because we have no confidence in the flesh, but in the spirit, which is who we really are. In our spirit, who worships God (Romans 1:9; Philippians 3:3) we do not sin because His seed remains in us and cannot sin because we are born of God (1 John 3:4-10; 5:18) and in Him is NO SIN, and because we are in Him (in the spirit) our spirit does not sin as it has been sealed and joined together with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

As someone wrote earlier, sin is transgression of the law. Therefore, since we are no longer under the law, sin is not counted against us (imputed), which is consistent with what Father spoke through the prophet Jeremiah and written in Hebrews (twice), and written by David, and cited by Paul in Romans 4: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” And “Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

If Father has said He will remember our sins no more, and if our transgressions have been removed as far as the east is to the west, and if God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES TO THEM, then why would He place a condition upon us to confess all our sins? What if we forget a sin? Or what if we are ignorant of a sin? And what about the sins we commit by NOT doing what we’re supposed to do? There are NO conditions placed upon these promises because these promises are accomplished by God and Him alone. This is what sovereign grace refers to… even though I don’t like the word “sovereign” because it is abused. God’s grace was done by Him alone and the only role we play in it is on the receiving end by faith and the confession of Jesus NOT the confession of sin. Romans 10:10.

Christians sin in the flesh because they continue to remain under the law, which makes them sin conscious (Romans 6:14; Romans 7:5, 8, 13). This is what is problematic in protestantism, which was carried over from catholicism–that somehow the church has replaced Jesus as Redeemer and Head. This is idolatry and an offense to the blood of Jesus… as you stated He who counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing… and how do you count it unholy? By despising the fullness of its power of redemption and remission for the sins of the whole world, which sadly is manifested in a “daily confession of sins” and even worse “confessing to a priest” where you divide sins into mortal and venal. Sin is sin, my friend, regardless of its effects in the natural realm. The Scripture says if you offend the law in ONE point, you are GUILTY OF ALL.

When those who are born again by the Spirit of God get a revelation of God’s grace and love, walking in the spirit, with their eyes firmly on Jesus, the scripture says they will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16; Romans 6:1-14; Ephesians 3:19).

The reason Christians sin again is because they have been taught to be mindful of their behavior instead of Jesus, that Father hates sin more than He loves them. This is so WRONG!!! and not according to the gospel. The church (both catholic and protestant) has preached the message of the “Christian life” of “not sinning anymore” declaring this to be the truth. This is FAR from truth…

Christianity is about Jesus and there is no room for discussion about what true godliness is as it is written: “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” [1 Timothy 3:16]

 

[Psalm_51]

William writes:

@ Rick .It doesn’t even look like you bothered to read my post brother. I doesn’t say in there that we don’t sin. And it doesn’t say that the John wrote the letter to unbelievers. You can go back and quote me exact words. There is thousands of people who would disagree with alot of things. So please give me a clear explaination of this and i’ll be convinced.
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, And His word is not in us.

Then we go to 1 John 3:8-9
"HE WHO SINS IS OF THE DEVIL"for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of man was manifest that He might destroy the works of the devil.

v9 whoever who has been born of God,“DOES NOT SIN”, for His seed remains in him; "AND HE CANNOT SIN"because he has been born of God.

So do i believe chapter 1 or chapter 3? Cause chapter 3 says born again people cannot sin, does not sin, and it we sin we are of the devil.
So which one is it?

My response.

William, which is it you ask? Scripture verses taken out of context or taken in isolation without referring to other Scripture passages (Scripture interprets Scripture) and what is stated clearly elsewhere can lead one to believe that God contradicts His own word. You say, “which is it?” referring to verse 9. We Catholics don’t have any trouble at all believing that we continue to sin after salvation and there is no contradiction between the verses you present because it is so clearly stated elsewhere in Scripture, that we continue to sin after salvation, many of which passages I have already provided. So your quote in 1 John 3:9 is not difficult to understand because when you sin mortally, you lose grace, the participation in God’s nature, and God no longer “abides in” you.

This is what the Christian Catholic (Universal) Church has taught for over 2,000 years and for over 1,500 years until a man named Martin Luther decided he knew better than all of the Christians who came before him and he wanted the book of James removed from the Bible because it did not agree with his “faith only” theology, and he added the words “faith alone” to Scripture. (Talk about not adding or taking away anything that has been written) The only place where the words “faith alone” are written in Scripture are in the book of James where he clearly writes that we are not saved by “faith alone.”

You can take any verse in Scripture out of context and it becomes a pretext. This is what you all are doing with these seemingly contradictory passages. One must be careful not to read verses in isolation like that because what can happen is that for instance one could be reading “and Judas went and hung himself,” and then go to another passage where it reads: “now go and do likewise.”

An Epistle is not a cousin of an Apostle and we should use proper Hermeneutics when studying Scripture.
Peace be with you.

Jeff writes:

Rick, you wrote, “1 John 3:9 is not difficult to understand because when you sin mortally, you lose grace, the participation in God’s nature, and God no longer “abides in” you.”

How does Paul say that we fall from grace is it through sin?.. NO, it’s not… a person falls from grace when he believes he is justified by the law. (See Galatians 5:4)

You cannot “sin” your salvation away for this would infer that sin is more powerful than grace… but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

The sin unto death John refers to in 1 John 3 is rejection of the payment for sins… also known as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 10:26-31 also Hebrews 6:4-6).

Jesus said, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you. So if God “no longer abides in you” then it is because we have rejected Jesus and returned to our own self-righteousness.

 

[Psalm_51]

I wrote:

Let me give you a feew sources that will help you understand the Catholic Church’s (Jesus’ Church) position:

On Grace: catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

On Sin: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm
…
On Law and Grace: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Original Sin:vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

I think you will understand better what the Catholic Church believes by reflecting on these things. Take a moment to read them if you have time.

William writes:

This part is for us 1 john 2:1
My litte children, These things i write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.

Me to Jeff:

Jeff we are now getting into your intepretation vs mine. You think yours is superior to mine. Thousands of other denominations and theologians from other faith traditions would disagree with us both! lol

So it all boils down to on whose authority do rest. We all believe equally that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Catholics also believe that Sacred Tradition (that which was orally passed on by the Apostles) and the teaching Magisterium of the Church as institutied by Jesus himself(The pillar and foundation of Truth) makes the final determination. The authority of the Church is given to it by Jesus and is one and the same as Jesus when it comes to faith and morals. This is what we believe.

I leave you in peace because we obviously are not making any headway here and are basically talking past each other.

Ronald A. Knox was an English convert of the early twentieth century who became a Catholic priest and was one of the last century’s top apologists. This article was exerpted from his book The Church on Earth.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0401clas.asp

William:

Rick The explanations on grace are awesom but then its gets into purgatory. Where is that in the bible?

Me to William:

Willliam you just won’t let me leave. I have work at home to do. lol

Here is an article on Purgatory:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Me to William:

William you said we still need to rightly divide the Word. How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one? How do you know that you are rightly dividing the Word of God? Could you be wrong? What about those thousands of other protestant denominations who disagree with your “rightly dividing the Word” and think they are the ones who are “rightly dividing the Word?” You both can’t be right.

William after reading the article on Purgatory:

Jeff check out the link on purgatory. The blood of Jesus doesn’t work!

Me:

Don’t you think Jesus provided a way for the Church not to be in error for the first 1,500 years to keep it from false teaching so that the gates of hell will not prevail against it? The historical Church founded by Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. It’s still around.

William:

I know because my life has changed. And the Holy Spirit is my teacher not any mans interpatation.

Me to William:

Many Christians lives have changed. And how could the Holy Spirt teach you something about Scripture than another denomination who looks at the same passage as you do and believes the Holy Spirt teaches him something diffferent? Is there more than one Holy Spirit. And does the Holy Spirt tell you one thing and someone else something else? How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit of the Bible?

 

[Psalm_51]

My invitation just a few moments ago. We’ll see if they take me up on it.

Jeff and anyone else who would like to have a dialogue with some Catholic folks, I invite you over to our forum. I actually started a thread over there because of your quote and I posted your response and some other folks’ responses. Sometimes I feel a little like I’m being ganged up on over here and I thought you might like to come to my turf and defend your theology. Many protestants are a part of this forum and they have dialogue with Catholics and some conversations actually generate more light than heat. Jeff, I referred to you as the “guru” LOL so when you see me use that word, I’m referring to you. I’m pretty sure you can view the forum without signing up for it but if you would like to chime in and defend yourself, you can just sign up for free. Anyway, come and join the conversation. Here is the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=481897

 

[Carlan]

The “guru” fails to put Paul in context. Paul is speaking to first century Jews who believed that they were justified by keeping the laws of circumcision, festivals, dietary laws. It other words they believed they could work their way to heaven. This become obvious when you look at the whole passage

Galations 5:2-12 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

For the Jews this teaching of grace and loving your neighbor was something new. For over a thousand years they had been taught they could only be saved by keeping the old law. THis is why they had a hard time accepting the Gentiles who didn’t have the old law and now could be saved by grace just like them.

What the guru is doing is interpreting scripture through Catholic vs non-Catholic pair of glasses instead of Jew and Gentile from the first century.

What he is preaching is a license to sin. He has bought into the teaching that he is a filthy rag that cannot help but sin but is forgiven anyway because he is a believer. This is a perversion of the gospel.

These folks were believers too and Paul said to them “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity…I warn you as I warned you before that those who do such things shalll not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19

What Paul is speaking about there is the moral law that is still in effect for all christians even those who think they are already saved and have no conscience of sin.

Paul tells us that here: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God but the doers of the law who will be justified” Rom.2:13

“For neither circumcision counts nor uncircumcision. What counts is keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor. 7:19

Excellent post, Third day. Carlan

 

[Psalm_51]

We recently had someone here use this to try to explain if someone does sin once you start to “live in the spirit” you are not really of God. He essentially believed in no sin after you have the fullness of spirit, not that it just isn’t recorded, but if you deliberately sin it’s proof you are not one of Christs.

I’m not really sure which particular denomination teaches what they believe. As a former evangelical Nazarene, Lutheran, and Presbyterian, it appears that they are taking some theology from each of these traditions, but it’s tough to pin down exactly who they follow or from whom they learned this thelogy. Of course their response to that would be The Bible and Jesus. But as I pointed out to them before all Protestants would say the same thing yet God’s Word tells each of them and means something different because they intrepret Scripture in different ways, a passage to a Lutheran means something different from a Nazarene and the Presbyterian would disagree with both; yet they all claim that their private interpretation came from the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Psalm_51]

That kind kid themselves. They avoid the narrow gate.

You did what we are called to do, you defended the faith, the Truth.

Because they would not listen to the Truth you did what Jesus told the Apostles to do “Shake the dust from your feet”(Matt 10: 14)God bless, Peace, Carlan

At first, I did leave but then got sucked back into the conversation. It was generally a civil discussion and I hope they at least got a good chance to learn about the Catholic view. As a former Protestant, I know how much ignorance and sterotyping is done about Catholocism. Some Nazarenes and other Protestants actually believe that Catholics aren’t Christians. LOL!

But the reason for the ignorance is that they have bought into the lies that they have been taught about Catholicism. Very few of those Protestants, if any, have made an attempt to seriously and objectively learn what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught since it was founded by Jesus. They just read stuff from anti-Catholics and swallow it whole, gullibly believing everything they have been told. It’s one thing to criticize the Catholic Church when you know what it really teaches because you have taken the time to find out; yet, it is quite another thing when you criticize it based upon a straw man and then go about beating the living hell out of what doesn’t really exist. This is what most Protestants do. They think the Catholic Church that they have been taught to despise is the real Catholic Church when in fact what they believe is in a mispresented distortion of the real truth. To understand the Catholic Church, you have to get inside the skin of Catholicism and when you do, you learn about history and Sacred Tradition (taught in Scripture), the authority of the Church (given by Jesus), and you don’t ignore what took place and what the early Christians were taught by the Apostles and was practiced for over 1500 years. Protestants believe that there was a void between the first century and the Reformation and nothing anyone believed or wrote about is relevant. It’s just my Bible only, it’s just Jesus and me.

Here are some of my favorite quotes:

“To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant”, Cardinal John Henry Newman. Convert to Roman Catholicism.

“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.” Bishop Fulton Sheen

“The first Protestant churches were founded by ordinary men in the sixteenth century. The Catholic Church was actually founded by Jesus and is the only Church He founded. It alone teaches with His authority. This is very crucial. You need to hang with Catholic groups.” Someone from Catholic Answers

 

[Psalm_51]

Oops, I guess I did read Jeff’s entire post and already posted it. Sorry for the confusion.It’s hard to keep track of it all and trying to post what they said here. Hopefully Jeff and his friends will come here and speak for themselves and we can have a real discussion. I’m not going to cross-post anymore of their comments from FB. They have the invite and can come if they wish.

 

[Psalm_51]

1. Can a person sin before attaining the age of reason (usually around 7 years old)? The answer is no. Someone that young does not have the ability to know right from wrong, and without that developed ability, that person cannot sin. Sin, by definition, requires doing something “wrong” (that is, turning away from God) and KNOWING that what you are doing is wrong.

I hope I did not miss something in this thread. When I read the title, I was truly confused (and may still be) - it sounds like someone is asking if man can sin after he has reached purgatory or heaven. And I have NEVER heard of such a theology being taught.

The focus is the Protestant belief in some circles that Christians don’t sin after they have been born again. On your point number 1, many Protestants don’t accept the doctrine of Original Sin and most don’t believe that baptism is salvific despite the clear words in Scripture that our baptism saves us. The discussion of baptized vs unbaptized young people and whether they sin after being baptized (salvation) is not the topic of this thread. A good discussion topic for another thread though!
And no, we are not discussing purgatory.

Protestants don’t believe a child is saved when he is baptized and that salvation comes only when one is an adult for the most part. What the title refers to is that once you have been born again, is it possible for you to sin and they sling out some isolated, out-of-context Bible verses and make a completely new theology of Christianity. Some folks believe that you cannot sin after you are saved. That’s what I had a problem with and what started the thread. And they also believe that a Christian is covered by the Robe of Christ’s righteousness and so it doesn’t matter even if we do sin because Christ paid for all of our sins on the cross - past, present, and future, so there is no further need to be conscious of our sins so that we can confess them - no need to confess sins because Christ already paid the price in full - past, present, and future sins are washed away - so don’t think about them at all because you cannot sin when you are of God. Protestants often take a verse that supports their belief like the robe and righteousness of Christ and develop their own theology around this or that particular verse rather than consider the context of the verse for the entire context of Scripture which contradicts their theology. Nor do they think what the Church has believed for over 1500 years is relevant in interpreting seemingly contradictory passages or that it has any authority at all to do so despite the clear words in Scripture that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

 

[Psalm_51]

While no-longer surprized I am nevertheless amazed with the frequency of biblical misunderstanding of our Protestant Brothern. Quite commonly Protestants take statements that are not stricly literal and say “this is fact.” [As in the post that says those who knoe Christ can no -longer sin because we are now under grace; no-longer under the law.]Then turn around and take what actually is litteral and attempt to apply there own meaning to it. Examples incluse the Eucharist detailed by five different NT authors; Matt. 16:15-19 especilly v. 19, John 20:19-23. All Jesus SPEAKING; ALL Literal, all deniend by most Protestants. GO FIGURE:shrug:

When Paul speaks of sin being attached to law, he speaks of the “Old Laws” attachd to the Commandments; all 300 PLUS. What is actually being said is that one can’t sin IF, there are no wrongs, no evils, no bad things, no rules or regulations. WHY?

Because in order to sin humanity has to freely choose to DO EVIL, CHOOSE what is bad, select what is immoral by free choice. One can’t sin by accicent. PAUL IS NOT SAYING THAT SIN IS NO-LONGER POSSIBLE; Paul is only saying that the definition of sin has been again defined by Christ. NOT in New Laws but Laws GOD ordains us to follow.

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

How many of us can even resite the Commandments?

How many of us KNOW that the Comandments are NOT 10 possible sins? Rather they are 10 Catagories of sins that fall under these specific headings. AND YES THIS IS BIBLICALLY authorized.

Only The CC Fathers can determine what is meant!

Matt.5:
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Now look at Mt. 16:19, Mt. 18:18 "Binding and Loosing"is unlimited authority to Govern the Church that Christ Founded]; then read John 20:22-23 TAKE these words of Jesus LITERALLY!

Love and prayers,
Pat

I’m not sure whether the folks on that FB page believe that the 10 Commandments no longer are applicable in the life of a Christian. It may fit their view that all OT law is gone even though Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfull it. And yes, on Jesus’ sermon on the mount, he RAISED THE BAR of the ten commandments. Adultry is no longer an actual outward act, it is now something that comes from inside, in one’s heart, and we break the commandment when we lust. How many of those Christian Protestants who look upon a woman with lust think that they are not sinning or that when they do Jesus automatically forgives that sin without confession and repentance? And those Protestants who present a false dichotomy between Law and Gospel often don’t understand which particular aspects of the law are no longer applicable (dietary laws and civil laws under an OT theocracy) to Christians and which ones still are (moral). Lutherans typically say that law is mutually exclusive with Gospel and that Moses is the law but Jesus is all Gospel. Yet they don’t deal with the NT’s mention of the “Law of Christ.”

 

[Psalm_51]

Because of time constraints, I’m going to take some of the comments from Jeff and respond to them piecemeal. Jeff wrote:

I think you’ve gravely misunderstood what many have said here regarding the actions of sin after salvation. No one would admit that they haven’t transgressed the law while they were under the law and before they received Jesus and His righteousness.

He obviously did not understand my concern. I never said that they said they never sinned BEFORE they were saved. My concern was that they now believe that they are no longer under ANY law that was mentioned in the OT and they have their proof-texts as Jeff writes:

And also, any actions in the flesh are moot because we have no confidence in the flesh, but in the spirit, which is who we really are. In our spirit, who worships God (Romans 1:9; Philippians 3:3) we do not sin because His seed remains in us and cannot sin because we are born of God (1 John 3:4-10; 5:18) and in Him is NO SIN, and because we are in Him (in the spirit) our spirit does not sin as it has been sealed and joined together with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

So they are saying that they no longer sin because they are born of God and that in Him is no sin (correct) and because we are in Him our spirit does not sin. These are proof-texts for their theology.

One question to Jeff on this, why would Jesus in Matthew 18 say that when your [Christian]brother sins against you go first to him, if no repentance, take some other witnesses with you, if no repentance, take it to the CHURCH, (The Christian Church) if no repentance, excommunicate him (treat like a tax collector)? Only Christains would be taken to the Church. Yet Jesus knows that we continue to sin even after becoming a Christian and he tells us that we still must repent. And when a disciple asks Jesus how many times should we forgive a Christian brother when they sin, He says over and over and over IF THEY REPENT.

 

[Psalm_51]

Looks like he rejected my offer:

Sorry, Rick. We are not commissioned to “apologize for” or be a “defender of the faith” unless someone asks in meekness the reason for the hope we have in us. I am called to preach the gospel, which I have done and continue to do; it was you who began this debate. If you’re seeking to be edified by my ministry, then please return. However, if all you want is strife, then please stay away.

“Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner. But be partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things. Nevertheless I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” [2 Timothy 1:8-12]

My final reply to him:

I see you added your own words to Scripture the words “in meekness.”
I thought the challenge of defending your heretical beliefs with other Christians might be just too much for you.

“…Always be prepared to give an answer to EVERYONE (emphasis mine) who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have…” (1 Peter 3:15)
Was it Martin Luther or Jeff or whomever you learned your theology from that added the words, “in meekness?”

I am not ashamed of the Gospel either, the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”(Galatians 1:8)
Peace.

 

[Psalm_51]

I looked Jeff up on a google search. Interesting:

I’m Jeff Pate. Thanks for stopping by my page. Please feel free to come back often to get stirred up by what the Lord has given me to share from His Word.

I have a new book coming out this summer called With Wings As Eagles: Your New Life in Christ. This great teaching from God’s word is a continuation of By the Grace of God I Am What I Am and how the Christian can take the truths of who they are in Christ, and begin walking in the newness of life–the life of Jesus in their body.

I live in the Greensboro area of North Carolina. In 2004, I was called by the Lord Jesus Christ to be a teacher of God’s word and established Branches of the Vine Ministries. I also own and operate a Christian book publishing company called Diakonia Publishing, so if you’re a Christian writer, minister, or pastor and the Lord has encouraged you to write a book, I would love to hear from you.

For those of who you do not know me personally, I want to assure you that I am NOT a “religious” person. In fact, I hate “religion” because it has nothing to do with true relationship with God. God is a person and He is very real, so consequently, my relationship with Him is very real. With that said, here’s my story in a nutshell…

In February 2003, when I was at my very worst, the Lord revealed Himself and His awesome love and I surrendered to His grace. Ever since, I’ve been sharing the good news of peace and reconciliation to the world. Read the passage below…the gospel really is good news!!!

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are dead and gone. Look at this, all things have become new, and all things are of God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation, which is, That God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them and has given to us the message of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God was imploring you by us, we beg you in Christ’s place, Be reconciled to God. Because he has made him (who knew no sin) to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” [2 Corinthians 5:17-21]

Endeavoring through God’s word, I try to be a living revelation of Jesus to the world–wherever I go. The foundation of my ministry is to do what Jesus did, which was to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, teach the word, heal every sickness and disease among the people, and make disciples (Matthew 9:35, Matthew 10:1, 7-8).

The greatest satisfaction I get is to see lives changed by the word and power of God. There are so many people who are hurting as a result of perversions of God’s word that they steer clear of anything Christian. My mission is to bear witness of the Light of the glorious gospel in the face of Jesus Christ, which sometimes causes me to bring down religious strongholds.

At times I may seem overly critical of “the church” because I believe that the church as a whole has failed to live up to what the Bible teaches concerning our co-mission as ambassadors for Christ. I’m not against church, but I am against the traditions and vain philosophy of man that has made the word of God of none effect.

I have a beautiful daughter whom I love very much. She’s a young woman of God as well and my prayer is that she grows in grace and relationship with Him.

My Interests
First and foremost my primary interest is spending time alone with God in His Word. I love my family and friends–especially my beautiful girlfriend Melvalyn. She has been such a blessing in my life. And then those folks whom the Lord has put in my life so that we may encourage and edify each other through the wisdom in God’s word.

I love to play golf, ride horses, exercise, watch/attend sporting events, cook (I’m a self-trained gourmet chef) travel, and many other things. I’m currently beginning to fulfill a lifelong desire, which is to learn to play the piano.

Heroes:
Jesus, the apostle Paul, all the Christian martyrs.
My Background and Lifestyle
MaritalStatus: In a Relationship
Ethnicity: White / Caucasian
SexualOrientation: Straight
Hometown: Alexandria, VA
Religion: Christian - other
Children: Proud parent
Education: College graduate
Occupation: Ambassador for Jesus Christ

Here’s the publishing company to which he refers:
ephesians412.net/About_Diakonia.html

And one of his books:

bovministries.net/I_Am_What_I_Am.html

Interesting.

 

[Psalm_51]

I hear this all the time from Protestants that they don’t want to be considered religious. They say
“it’s not about religion, it’s about a relationship.” Not sure why they de-emphasize religion so much. We are told in Scripture that being religious is a good thing.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.(James 1: 26-27)NIV

Christianity is a religion whether they like it or not. And all Christians have a relationship with Jesus. To say that as a true Christian, one is not being religious is nonsense.