Do We Sin After Salvation: Some say no - Part 1

[Third_Day]

Psalm51, I would be interested in how he defines sin. Does he believe that all sin is the same, all sin is equal? I suspect he does and that is the basis for his flawed theology.

He quotes this from Hebrews
Hebrews 10:12, 14, KJV
12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God… 14For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

And adds his personal bible commentary:

The Bible tells us, “For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified”. Did you get that? You have not only been sanctified, that is, made holy, but by the same offering of His body, you have been perfected. You are both holy and perfect in God’s eyes

What he fails to grasp is that we are sanctified in Baptism but we can lose that sanctification through sin. If he would only continue to read Hebrews 10 this becomes clear

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin……“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said “Vengeance is mine I will repay.” And again, ”The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:29-31

There we see someone who had been sanctified, made holy and yet outraged the Spirit of grace by deliberately sinning. I would love to see his interpretation of those verses.

He then makes this comment:
So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.

Again he misses the point Hebrews 10:22 says “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

I would wager that he doesn’t believe in Baptism which that verse is an allusion to. The words “sprinkled clean” and “washed with pure water” are illusions to baptism. Peter makes the same connection. “Baptism….now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience.” 1 Peter 3:21

Again if he would only continue to read in Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised……” but my righteous one shall live by faith and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.”

How can he possibly get this interpretation out of Hebrews?
So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.

He adds this:
I was called by the Lord Jesus Christ to be a teacher of God’s word and established Branches of the Vine Ministries
That is his major problem. He believes he was called to be a teacher. God does not call a man to preach or teach error. The only valid teachers are those of apostolic origin.

He adds this
At times I may seem overly critical of “the church” because I believe that the church as a whole has failed to live up to what the Bible teaches concerning our co-mission as ambassadors for Christ

He is quoting from 2 Cor. 5:17-21The Greek word for ambassadors is* presbeuo *which is a form of presbyter. We are not all called to be priests for Christ who can forgive sins,
This verse actually refers to the sacrament of confession. When the author says “we” are presbyters for Christ he is talking about those who had been ordained thorough the laying on of hands. Christians are to let the presbyter “on Christ’s behalf” reconcile us to God in the sacrament of reconciliation. This becomes apparent when you read the whole verse with the understanding that Christ established a Church with valid ministers.

"All things are of God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation….Now then,** we **are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God 2 Corinthians 5:17-21

 

[Salvatore123]

Psalm 51,

My post may be deleted after I post it, but what you recount as the protestant belief that once someone is “saved”, they can never sin again, has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

How presumptuous of someone to think that by saying their “magical prayer”, they can then live like degenerates for the rest of their lives, and yet still think they are still “okay” with God. But when called to the mat about someone’s degenerate behavior, they respond, “well he wasn’t really saved if it is acting like that”.

IF THEY BELIEVE ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED - WHY GO TO CHURCH? TITHE? HELP THE POOR? CLOTHE THE NAKED? FEED THE HUNGRY?

Their belief makes a complete mockery of Christ’s teaching of the Beatitudes.

Even circular reason makes more sense than what they spew.

People like that are as beyond hope as the Taliban who murdered 10 doctors and nurses this morning - health care workers who had volunteered to help provided medical care to the poor in the mountanous regions of Afghanistan - claiming they were spies for the US and were preaching Christianity.

I find that talking to these hard core fundamentalists and people like the Taliban is like talking to a brick wall - you get absolutely no feedback. They look at you like a cow staring at a new fence that was not there the day before. The cow just stares at it with a look on its face, “That wasn’t there before.”

 

[Salvatore123]

And what about the Bible’s commandment that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

According to this guy, why fear? why tremble? If you “have it made”, no need to fear or tremble.

It reminds me of the scene in Animal House where the principal tells one of the students that “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son”.

 

[Psalm_51]

Psalm51, I would be interested in how he defines sin. Does he believe that all sin is the same, all sin is equal? I suspect he does and that is the basis for his flawed theology.

He quotes this from Hebrews
Hebrews 10:12, 14, KJV
12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God… 14For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

And adds his personal bible commentary:

The Bible tells us, “For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified”. Did you get that? You have not only been sanctified, that is, made holy, but by the same offering of His body, you have been perfected. You are both holy and perfect in God’s eyes

What he fails to grasp is that we are sanctified in Baptism but we can lose that sanctification through sin. If he would only continue to read Hebrews 10 this becomes clear

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin……“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said “Vengeance is mine I will repay.” And again, ”The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:29-31

There we see someone who had been sanctified, made holy and yet outraged the Spirit of grace by deliberately sinning. I would love to see his interpretation of those verses.

He then makes this comment:
So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.

Again he misses the point Hebrews 10:22 says “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

I would wager that he doesn’t believe in Baptism which that verse is an allusion to. The words “sprinkled clean” and “washed with pure water” are illusions to baptism. Peter makes the same connection. “Baptism….now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience.” 1 Peter 3:21

Again if he would only continue to read in Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised……” but my righteous one shall live by faith and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.”

How can he possibly get this interpretation out of Hebrews?
So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.

He adds this:
I was called by the Lord Jesus Christ to be a teacher of God’s word and established Branches of the Vine Ministries
That is his major problem. He believes he was called to be a teacher. God does not call a man to preach or teach error. The only valid teachers are those of apostolic origin.

He adds this
At times I may seem overly critical of “the church” because I believe that the church as a whole has failed to live up to what the Bible teaches concerning our co-mission as ambassadors for Christ

He is quoting from 2 Cor. 5:17-21The Greek word for ambassadors is* presbeuo *which is a form of presbyter. We are not all called to be priests for Christ who can forgive sins,
This verse actually refers to the sacrament of confession. When the author says “we” are presbyters for Christ he is talking about those who had been ordained thorough the laying on of hands. Christians are to let the presbyter “on Christ’s behalf” reconcile us to God in the sacrament of reconciliation. This becomes apparent when you read the whole verse with the understanding that Christ established a Church with valid ministers.

"All things are of God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation….Now then,** we **are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God [2 Corinthians 5:17-21

Excellent exegesis! It is unfortunate that he doesn’t have enough confidence in his beliefs that he won’t come here to defend them. If he was called by God like he says,to teach the truth, nothing could stop him and he would destroy any false argument. I think he’s an imposter who is teaching a false doctrine, a false Gospel.
[/quote]

 

[Psalm_51]

And what about the Bible’s commandment that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

According to this guy, why fear? why tremble? If you “have it made”, no need to fear or tremble.

It reminds me of the scene in Animal House where the principal tells one of the students that “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son”.

LOL!

 

[Psalm_51]

I know I said I wouldn’t cross post from that thread but I couldn’t resist this comment from Jeff. After my continued challenges to his heretical beliefs, the toll must have been too much for him and I think I got a glimpse of the real Jeff. Kind of like when 0bama told Joe the Plumber to “spread the wealth.” His true self came out for all to see which in hindsight he probably wishes he never would have made that comment. Anyway, here it is:

Sorry, Rick. We are not commissioned to “apologize for” or be a “defender of the faith” unless someone asks in meekness the reason for the hope we have in us. I am called to preach the gospel, which I have done and continue to do; it was yo…u who began this debate. If you’re seeking to be edified by my ministry, then please return. However, if all you want is strife, then please stay away.

“Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner. But be partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us, and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things. Nevertheless I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” [2 Timothy 1:8-12]

I do think it is probably time for me to move on. They are piling up on me over there, making fun, mocking, being sarcastic, and I think I’ve given enough of what the Catholic Church believes so that if they take any time at all to read what we really believe (much of what I gave them came from Catholic Answers tracts), at least they will know the true beliefs rather than the their own stereotypical beliefs of what the Catholic Church is, you know that straw man hey all love to beat up on as illustrated by Jeff’s comments above.

 

[Psalm_51]

I removed the last post I just made because I inadvertently placed a quote by Jeff which wasn’t the quote that pertained to my comment. Jeff went on a rampage yesterday against the Catholic Church and at the end of it he told me to “put that in your POPE and smoke it.”
That is the real Jeff which emerged. When I went back to his FB page and copied what I thought were those very words, I inadvertently posted another of his comments which I have already provided here. What I didn’t notice until I went back after removing my post was that he removed his anti-catholic diatribe he wrote yesterday and my response to it. I think he was rightly ashamed of what he wrote but instead of publicly acknowledging that, he chose to remove it completely hoping that not too many of his students read it.
Anyway, as I said in my previous removed post, the time has come to bring this to conclusion. I’ve done my best to present the views of the Catholic Church from presenting my own views as well as many of your views and the tracts from Catholic Answers. They are mocking me now, being sarcastic, and I don’t think it would be worthwhile to keep giving replies. NOW is the time to dust off my feet and move on.
Sorry for all of the sordid detail and lengthy posts but I just wanted to provide a glimpse of what kind of conversations I have had with Protestants. I tried my best to keep it civil but also to be blunt and unapologetic about the Truth and I’m sure he didn’t like being challenged and told that his views were heretical and that he was teaching a false Gospel. But I sincerely believe that he was doing just that. If nothing else, perhaps he will reconsider his views and I’ll say a prayer right now for him and his flock that their eyes can be opened to see the fullness of God’s Truth, which lies within the Catholic Church. Amen! And if I have said ANYTHING in error or that doesn’t faithfully represent what the Holy Church teaches, God bring that to my attention either through opening my own eyes or through my brothers and sisters in Christ pointing it out to me so that I can be corrected. And if I have not defended the faith or given them a reason for the hope that I have or not done so with gentleness and respect, please forgive me. I did try and keep it civil and not call names or get nasty.
Thanks to all for chiming in on this long thread. Your comments will be a permanent source for reference and reflection on this issue of God’s grace and continuing sin.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Did you ask them about the role of the Holy Spirit in the believers’ life?

If I am not mistaken, he convicts of sin.

The letters to the churches in Rev speak of christians sinning.

 

[Big_Dummy]

google.com/#hl=en&q=%22sin+consciousness%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=8da47ac806d1c372

Sin Consciousness vs Righteous Consciousness appears to be “word of faith” movement teaching.

 

[Psalm_51]

google.com/#hl=en&q=%22sin+consciousness%22&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=8da47ac806d1c372

Sin Consciousness vs Righteous Consciousness appears to be “word of faith” movement teaching.

A perfect example of taking isolated Bible verses out of context and developing a completely new and dangerous theology which is contrary to the very words of Jesus. An example of teaching to which Scripture refers in 2 Timothy 4:3:

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about written from the guru:

And also, any actions in the flesh are moot because we have no confidence in the flesh, but in the spirit, which is who we really are. In our spirit, who worships God (Romans 1:9; Philippians 3:3) we do not sin because His seed remains in us and cannot sin because we are born of God (1 John 3:4-10; 5:18) and in Him is NO SIN, and because we are in Him (in the spirit) our spirit does not sin as it has been sealed and joined together with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

I think they fail to realize that before we were justified, our only bent was towards sin and we could not do anything but sin because there is no way we could move towards God and desire to do his will without first receiving God’s grace, who moves us to believe, to hope, to love, and to be repentant. So these verses (we now CANNOT SIN) which reflect the new creature in Christ refers to our new bent towards God and to do His will and not to sin, not that we cannot ever sin again when we are justified. Jesus himself told his disciples (Christians) that when your brother sins against you, take it to him first, then take some witnesses, then take it to the final arbiter -the Church- and if there is no repentance, excommunicate him. And there are several more examples of Christians within the churches (Corinth) sinning and being rebuked for it so as to bring the brother back into the fold.

The other thing that these “word of faith” folks are confused about, as well as many evangelicals are also confused about is the difference between Original Sin and actual sin. They deny that Baptism saves which is contrary to the clear words of Scripture, so they think any sins committed only occurred before one “accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior” and then they take these isolated verses, which on the face seem to be telling them that it is impossible for a born again believer to sin, but being completely oblivious not only to Jesus’ own words in telling us what to do when a Christian brother sins against us, but also to the effects that the Fall has on our body, spirit and soul through concupiscence, which although not a sin itself, can lead us to sin even after we are justified. And because God did not take our free will away from us when we were justified, we can still choose to reject his grace and to fall away by commiting serious sin. Jesus, knowing this, gave his Apostles the authority to forgive our sins (if they are repentant), or to withold them. (if they are not repentant.) “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:23) And as Jesus said to the first Pope - Saint Peter, the one to whom Jesus gave the authority to lead His Church on earth and to feed his sheep, " I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bef bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

 

[Psalm_51]

Did you ask them about the role of the Holy Spirit in the believers’ life?

If I am not mistaken, he convicts of sin.

The letters to the churches in Rev speak of christians sinning.

They would argue that the Holy Spirt convicts THE WORLD of sin, not believers.

 

[Psalm_51]

CRI is a Christian orthodox but Protestant apologetics organization. Catholics agree with much of what CRI believes. Extract out the Catholic bias, and their doctrinal defense of the Christian faith aligns well with Catholic beliefs. So keep that in mind when reading the article I am posting about the topic of this thread. As a former Protestant, I used to listen and study Hank Hannegraff, the Bible Answer Man and much of what I learned eventually led me to Catholic Church and for that I’m grateful. He and his organization get much more right about Christianity than they do wrong.

The apostle Paul says that the law of sin dwells “in [our] members” (Rom. 7:23) and further exhorts us not to let it reign in our mortal bodies (Rom. 6:12), suggesting that it is present there. If the principle of sin remains with us, and the term sin nature refers to this principle, then how can Neil Anderson maintain that Christians no longer have a sin nature?
equip.org/articles/how-to-win-the-war-within

Enjoy.

Comments?

 

[Ruthie_again]

Oh, this has been fun. I love threads that inspire me to look up, and think about, Bible passages!

It all boils down to one thing.

Rightly dividing the Word does not mean dividing it up into verses and pieces of verses! We can’t take a single verse, separate it from the rest of the Bible, and use it as the absolute truth.

“Divine mystery and human piety make for strange dancing partners without the twin lights of reason and tradition to guide our steps.”

• Heather Erb

 

[Cochise]

According to Scipture, we must confess our mortal sins to a priest, who Jesus atuhorized to forgive sins (and our venial sins directly to God) for God to forgive us and purify (sanctify) us from all unrighteousness.

Where do you find the Text that says this, that Jesus authorized priest to forgive sins, just wandering?

 

[Psalm_51]

According to Scipture, we must confess our mortal sins to a priest, who Jesus atuhorized to forgive sins (and our venial sins directly to God) for God to forgive us and purify (sanctify) us from all unrighteousness.

Where do you find the Text that says this, that Jesus authorized priest to forgive sins, just wandering?

Sorry for the delay. Just got around to this thread while looking up some other stuff:

John 20:

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”