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PiousTemplar
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Oh really? From what I have seen they seem to be subtly anti-catholic at times too.
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Rahn
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Check out this thread and see who’s attacking…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8082944&posted=1#post8082944
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8082944&posted=1#post8082944
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Oldtimer_7
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The most virulent anti-Catholics are also the most anti-Lutheran, anti-anyone-but-them. We are all tarred with the same brush, that we have not attained the same level of holiness as the “Chosen.”
There is a casual anti-Catholicism that presents itself in small, but significant ways, ways that the practitioners amy not even realize. A friend recently converted from Methodism. I suggested a Catholic couple I knew as sponsors, since the wife had also converted from Methodism. Barbara began running into this casual anti-Catholicism very quickly. She went into a bookstore looking for Catholic materials. She was told they did not have any as it was a “Christian” bookstore. She contacted the Florida Baptist church were she had been baptized and when she told them she needed information for joining the Church, they turned very cold and told her that they could not find any records.
The man who invited me to this site and I used to do battle with vocal anti-Catholics on another site. The owner kicked a number of Catholics off the site. It got so bad that I became the one who presented the Catholic viewpoint on many occasions. Even then, my Lutheranism only offered me very limited protection. Eventually, the owner of the site pulled the religious discussion.
What was interesting was that though other non-Catholics did not agree with Catholic viewpoints, they might have attacked the arguments, but never the proponents. It was just about three or four who went after the belief of Catholics, and they were also very intolerant of any viewpoint but their own. I found out that they all had pretty miserable lives going on, so I think at least part of their anti attitudes was a result of the turmoil they were suffering personally. The intellectual arguments they propounded were so easily deflated, they could not have been using their critical faculties.
There is a casual anti-Catholicism that presents itself in small, but significant ways, ways that the practitioners amy not even realize. A friend recently converted from Methodism. I suggested a Catholic couple I knew as sponsors, since the wife had also converted from Methodism. Barbara began running into this casual anti-Catholicism very quickly. She went into a bookstore looking for Catholic materials. She was told they did not have any as it was a “Christian” bookstore. She contacted the Florida Baptist church were she had been baptized and when she told them she needed information for joining the Church, they turned very cold and told her that they could not find any records.
The man who invited me to this site and I used to do battle with vocal anti-Catholics on another site. The owner kicked a number of Catholics off the site. It got so bad that I became the one who presented the Catholic viewpoint on many occasions. Even then, my Lutheranism only offered me very limited protection. Eventually, the owner of the site pulled the religious discussion.
What was interesting was that though other non-Catholics did not agree with Catholic viewpoints, they might have attacked the arguments, but never the proponents. It was just about three or four who went after the belief of Catholics, and they were also very intolerant of any viewpoint but their own. I found out that they all had pretty miserable lives going on, so I think at least part of their anti attitudes was a result of the turmoil they were suffering personally. The intellectual arguments they propounded were so easily deflated, they could not have been using their critical faculties.
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Cat
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To me, debates about doctrine are not “anti-Catholicism.”Honestly? I went to a Baptist University in undergrad in the middle of the Bible Belt. There were days where I nearly missed lunch because my bf’s roommate felt compelled to convince me that Purgatory didn’t exist, or wanted to hash out how Catholics feel about Mary and why it was wrong.
But then again, I went to a Baptist University in the middle of the Bible Belt.It was cool to see students so enthused about their faith, and I probably got exposed to a segment of the population that was above-average in their fervor. Once you strike out into the real world, everyone just sort of ignores everyone else’s business and tends to their own world, and the only meaty, chewy religious discussions you get are on the Internet.
Protestants debate among themselves about different theologies.
When my husband and I met as teenagers, we spent many hours debating and arguing, Bibles in hand, about the doctrines of Once Saved Always Saved (my church–Conference Baptist) vs Falling Away and Losing Your Salvation (his church–Assemblies of God). We also debated the ministries of the Holy Spirit and the sign gifts (my church nay on speaking in tongues, his church yay on speaking in tongues).
Protestants also debate among themselves, even within their own churches, about different practices.
E.g., when I was growing up, many of the older Christians in our Conference Baptist Church argued vehemently against dancing, movies (especially on Sunday), secular magazines and newspapers, and of course, the demon rock music (this was back during the early days of Christian rock music). These older Christians basically lost their debate, and today, most evangelical Christians dance, attend movies, read the local newspaper and subscribe to Glamour Magazine, and listen to all kinds of music.
Debates and disagreements are not “anti.” Believe it or not, many Protestants LOVE debates about theology, and they can argue and cite Scriptures all day, BUT…they don’t consider this “hostile” or “uncharitable.” To them, this is fun stuff! At the end of the debate, both sides go out for dinner and coffee (usually not alcohol) and they chat about their families, jobs, gardens, and the local sports teams.
I don’t think Catholics understand this culture. I think Catholics are uncomfortable with debates about theology. But Protestants love this kind of stuff, and consider it “recreation!” (Remember, most evangelical Protestants, at least until recently, didn’t drink alcohol, dance, or listen to rock music, and so many recreational sites were off limits–we had to do SOMETHING for fun!)
But like I said, just because someone challenges Catholic beliefs and tries to disprove them doesn’t mean that the person is “anti-Catholic.” They just want proof for the teaching–all Catholics should be able to offer that proof. Our first Pope, St. Peter, told us that! See I Peter 3: 15 & 16.
It seems to me that true anti-Catholicism is not disagreement with Catholic theology and practice, but rather, an insistence that Catholics are not Christian and are serving Satan.
There are quite a few Protestants who don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches, and they think that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach true Christianity. A lot of evangelical Protestants believe and teach that Catholics add things to the Gospel and burden people with “works” and “traditions.”
But they still believe that Catholics themselves are true Christians, just “burdened” Christians, weighed down with lots of “extra” teachings of the Catholic Church. But still true Christians.
So IMO, these Protestants are not “anti-Catholic.”
In the past (as recently as 30 years ago), many evangelical Protestants didn’t mix with Catholics much, and so people like Jack T. Chick were able to get a foothold and spread their rhetoric.
But in recent years, Protestants and Catholics have been forced to come face-to-face and work together to rid the U.S. of the sin of abortion.
Many Protestants have become close friends with Catholics during various pro-life activities. **Many Protestant pastors and teachers will cite, with awe and respect, the untiring faithfulness of the Catholic Church and Catholics in opposing abortion as proof that Catholicism is a true Christian church. **
Another reason why Protestants have begun to realize the truth about Catholicism is because of Chuck Colson and Father Richard Neuhaus (RIP). These two men did a magnificant work by starting Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and Colson in particular has done so much to help Protestants understand what Catholics really teach. Many evangelical Protestant pastors and leaders, including the revered Dr. Bill Bright (RIP) have signed the various documents of Evangelicals and Protestants Together, and this has really helped Protestant laypeople to recognize what Catholics truly teach, and that they are truly Christians. (Some noted evangelical leaders, e.g., J.I. Packer, have NOT signed the documents and insist that the documents are flawed.)
So now, as a result of the pro-life movement and because of organizations like Evangelical and Catholics Together, many Protestants and Protestant churches consider people like Jack T. Chick and James White as “crackpots” and “a mile off.”
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Cat
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I agree with this!
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JackVk
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exnihilo
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You sum up very well what I perceive.
Passionate people who really, truly believe what they believe can often be very antagonistic to those who differ with them. People who dont really strongly believe in anything can be very accepting. As I see it we should be happy that some people are so passionate enough about their faith to be strongly against that which contradicts it. If they disagree with charity, which many often fail to do on all sides, how can we fault them?
I see a bigger threat in the many people who are so indifferent that they really dont care where you go to church or what you believe. These people seem charitable but it isnt really charity it is indifference that defines them.
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KarenElissa
Guest
Exactly, in college, my friends and I used to to do the same type of things.
I would also add that ignorance is not necessarily anti-Catholicism either. Just because some asks why we put Mary above Jesus or never read the Bible doesn’t mean they hate us. These stereotypes are so prevalent, and like many stereotypes, often rooted in a bit of truth, that you can’t exactly blame people for believing them.
Anti-Catholics would be those who persist in believing and repeating those stereotypes even after having heard why they are not true, and just being nasty about it.
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Contarini
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I think a huge factor is region. A lot of folks here come from the South and other very conservative Protestant areas in the U.S. (there are a few other such areas in the world, like Northern Ireland), where anti-Catholicism is rampant. One of the things that is both cool and disorienting about an Internet forum is that we have folks in virtual proximity to each other who live in radically different “real-world” environments. So it’s easy to assume that the other person is deluded when they just have a very different experience.
I grew up in East Tennessee. I was an anti-Catholic myself. I couldn’t talk to a Catholic for five minutes without trying to show him or her how mixed up his religion was. Admittedly, I was a kid, and a very obnoxious, argumentative kid. After a few of these experiences with Catholics (spaced out with years in between them), I became less bigoted.
With regard to midori’s experience, I think there is a difference between the kind of friendly “bull session” that college students typically have and the almost obsessive desire to straighten people out displayed by many conservative Protestants, and often directed toward Catholics. Midori pretty clearly seems to have experienced the latter. However, at my institution (which is evangelical Protestant) I think the Catholic students sometimes have trouble telling the difference, because they are an embattled minority and don’t understand that the Protestant students may be curious more than hostile.
Edwin
I grew up in East Tennessee. I was an anti-Catholic myself. I couldn’t talk to a Catholic for five minutes without trying to show him or her how mixed up his religion was. Admittedly, I was a kid, and a very obnoxious, argumentative kid. After a few of these experiences with Catholics (spaced out with years in between them), I became less bigoted.
With regard to midori’s experience, I think there is a difference between the kind of friendly “bull session” that college students typically have and the almost obsessive desire to straighten people out displayed by many conservative Protestants, and often directed toward Catholics. Midori pretty clearly seems to have experienced the latter. However, at my institution (which is evangelical Protestant) I think the Catholic students sometimes have trouble telling the difference, because they are an embattled minority and don’t understand that the Protestant students may be curious more than hostile.
Edwin
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Godith
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I find the British media to be anti-Christian at times, not just anti-a-particular-denomination.
I agree with what you say about anti-Catholicism being more prevelant in Scotland and N. Ireland than in England. I do think it’s less down here, thank God. When I was growing up, in a rural village, I didn’t encounter any anti-Catholic feelings or teaching in church. I was in a United Reformed Church, and we respected our Catholic brothers and sisters, and prayed with them on days like Good Friday. When I did encounter it was when I went to University. I started to meet a lot of evangelical Christians, and I was shocked and horrified by some of the things I heard said about Catholics. It wasn’t everyone, and it wasn’t all the time, but now and then someone would make a comment, and I’d be like ‘what?’
Nowadays, I hear that sort of thing less and less. I am in a Vineyard church, and we emphasise love and respect for all our sister churches, whatever group or demonination they are, so I’m hearing the opposite taught in my own community, but I hear it less from Christians in other churches, too. I think there is a change in church life these days that is pushing anti-Catholicism more to the lunatic fringe (where it belongs, IMO).I do think there are still huge problems of understanding, though. I’ve recently been reading about Catholicism, (hence joining this forum lol ) and I’ve found there are quite a few things about Catholic teaching I had misunderstood, or not understood at all. Theologically, the differences between what I’ve been taught, and what the Catholic church teaches, seem to be less striking than I’d previously imagined. There are differences, obviously, but I feel I have more in common with my Catholic brethren than I realised. I’m sure there are many other people out there like me, who though they aren’t anti-Catholic, are labouring under false assumptions and misunderstandings. It is my prayer that there will be more and more dialogue between different church groups, and more working together, so we can overcome prejudices and grow in love and respect within the Christian family.
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Tyuiop411
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I think it largely depends on where you live. In the South or “Bible Belt” you tend to encounter anti-Catholicism quite a bit more than if you lived further north, especially in rural areas and among older folks. As for some of us being a bit jumpy to defend against perceived attacks; Where I grew up the anti-Catholicism started early, lots of times in first grade. So it’s kind of ingrained into us.
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melbanglican
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You make some very interesting points!
Regarding people and their real attitudes toward religion, that seems to be the way they work. The only members of other religions they find offensive are those they haven’t met!
Your second point reflects the reality throughout most of Australia. One member of our congregation is a Maronite, while his wife is an Anglican. Nobody gives it a second thought.
As you say, this forum strikes me as rather conservative, but still for the most part very thoughtful and interesting.
Thank you, one and all, for making it that way!
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Edmundus1581
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Yes, this forum is conservative by Catholic standards.…
As you say, this forum strikes me as rather conservative, but still for the most part very thoughtful and interesting.
Thank you, one and all, for making it that way!
My own theology is “right-wing” in ordinary Catholic circles, but I feel myself more “left-wing” in this forum.Greetings from Adelaide!
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Edmundus1581
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I wish it were always so! Unfortunately, the most virulantly anti-Catholic Anglicans I’ve met have been those who profess tolerance and open-mindedness in principle, but froth at the mouth when they come into contact, personally, with people who holds specific Catholic tenets, eg. rejection of inter-communion, rejection of divorce, male-only priesthood, etc… When I was in this situation, as a Catholic, I felt that I was walking thru a minefield, trying to avoid a fight.
Still, your observation is, in general, good! I think these people were the exceptions.
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AntalKalnoky
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It’s been said that Martin Luther would want to Return to Full Catholic, after Vatican II. And he is quoted as saying, before he died, he Never would have Begun the Reformation if he had known the Many Results of new teachings like Calvin’s, in his time, that rejected Many Catholic basics, like the Mass, Mary, etc.
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AntalKalnoky
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I was stared at by ‘everyone’ when I was the only one not receiving communion. I simply attended a conservative Anglican ‘mass’, that had universal confession, and universal communio. They genuflected when passing the red eucharitic candle storage of their communion. That Church split from an Episcopal Church because of the new ideas like practicing gay bishop, etc.I wish it were always so! Unfortunately, the most virulantly anti-Catholic Anglicans I’ve met have been those who profess tolerance and open-mindedness in principle, but froth at the mouth when they come into contact, personally, with people who holds specific Catholic tenets, eg. rejection of inter-communion, rejection of divorce, male-only priesthood, etc… When I was in this situation, as a Catholic, I felt that I was walking thru a minefield, trying to avoid a fight.
Still, your observation is, in general, good! I think these people were the exceptions.
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AntalKalnoky
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Catholic ‘teaching’ (Catechesis) was Very weak, confused in the late 1960’s through 1980’s, because media and misunderstandings about Vatican II confused many, even in the Clergy. I know one Sister who left her Order, saying *they left her * with average clothing, replacing Divine Office with personal prayers of choice, etc. Church Councils have always resulted in misunderstandings, confusion, as when Our Lord told the Disciples they can not have Life unles they Drink His blood, eat His flesh. Many left. The Apostles understood, being close to Christ. Yet, an Anglican Convent Changed to Catholic recently, under the Anglican conversion program of the Vatican, also in North America. An Anglican Diocese in Wales, including their Bishop, famously changed to Catholic ‘recently’I’m a Lutheran dating a Catholic… instead of trying to talk to her about converting, I’m usually the one who corrects her statements for her whenever she says something heretical or definitely not-Catholic. I also explain a lot of the nuances of Catholicism to her since I study a ton of theology as an undergrad. So basically, I’m a Lutheran teaching a Catholic about… Catholicism… haha
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AntalKalnoky
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Missouri Synod is very traditional, like historc Catholic. It’s been knowledgeaby said that Martin Luther would have returned to the Catholic Church after Vatican II. Resulting current teaching of The Church is that “It Can be a Sin” for a Catholic to look down or demean any other Faith. It is Papal Policy, since John Paul II the Great. In a recent Reformation Day Service at our neighboring ECLA Church, their Pastor changed it to a Joint Choir/ Joint participation Word/Worship for Church Unity. The big Problem recently was ECLA And Missouri Synods recognizing gay relationships, as many christian ‘popular opinion’ denominations have, since Popular Opinions replaced Biblical and traditional standards in the 1930’s.I believe that it is the age of the person that matters whether they are anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant. I had an aunt that was vehemently anti-Catholic, she was a staunch Lutheran. When she found out that I had a Catholic girlfriend at the time, she read the riot act to me. She was that way until she died. We have some older members of our church, that still have a problem with say the word Catholic because of Lutheran Pietism. I may not agree with Catholic doctrine but I am not really anti-Catholic.
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AntalKalnoky
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Welcome! Just a thought: Conservative and Liberal are Political terms, not appropriate for religions; Fr Groeschell agreed. Some of us like to use traditional or or non-You make some very interesting points!
Regarding people and their real attitudes toward religion, that seems to be the way they work. The only members of other religions they find offensive are those they haven’t met!
Your second point reflects the reality throughout most of Australia. One member of our congregation is a Maronite, while his wife is an Anglican. Nobody gives it a second thought.
As you say, this forum strikes me as rather conservative, but still for the most part very thoughtful and interesting.
Thank you, one and all, for making it that way!
The Missouri Synod has not recognized gay relationships, niether in the laity nor in the clergy. It is a specific point of difference between us as the choices made by the ELCA in this way, and their practice of ordaining women, we believe to be contrary to scripture and the Lutheran confessions.
Jon
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