Do we truly have free will?

[TheHolyGhost]

It is said that God will never force us to love Him or be with Him. He invites us all to be with Him, however, if one should reject Him and choose not to be with Him, why is the only other alternative death and torture and eternal despair? Its either be with Him or sentence yourself to death. What if someones free will choice was to be in a good place without Him or the devil? Surely He would not honor this persons free will choice and wish in this particular instance.

Is it a crime to turn down an invitation to a party? A dinner? An outing? But if you do, you will suffer forever… Hardly seems like a free will choice at all. Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?

 

[Nita]

It is said that God will never force us to love Him or be with Him. He invites us all to be with Him, however, if one should reject Him and choose not to be with Him, why is the only other alternative death and torture and eternal despair? Its either be with Him or sentence yourself to death. What if someones free will choice was to be in a good place without Him or the devil? Surely He would not honor this persons free will choice and wish in this particular instance.

Only God is good. (cf Mt. 19:17; Mark 10:18) Goodness does not exist apart from God. There woud be no source of goodness present in a place totally separated from God.

Is it a crime to turn down an invitation to a party? A dinner? An outing? But if you do, you will suffer forever… Hardly seems like a free will choice at all. Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?

If that party/dinner/outing was only place in existence that had any food (which is necessary to sustain life), and you chose to reject going to it, you would die. Period. Not because the one putting on the party wanted to kill you for not coming, but because you would not come and receive the food that would ensure your staying alive.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

While there is some good here on earth, and even though it is said God is with us, it wouldnt appear that He is immediately here in person. Why could God not make an eternal earthlike place where neither He or the devil are immediately present that He prepared for average people who reject Him?

If you claim God is immediately here right now, wouldn’t He be violating the will of those who dont want to be with Him?

If Heaven is the only place with food, why could He not in His divine mercy, donate some leftover food to the neutral place? The people would be happy to accept the food, but maybe they wouldn’t necessarily want to be around the chef or owner as they ate?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

It is said that God will never force us to love Him or be with Him. He invites us all to be with Him, however, if one should reject Him and choose not to be with Him, why is the only other alternative death and torture and eternal despair? Its either be with Him or sentence yourself to death. What if someones free will choice was to be in a good place without Him or the devil? Surely He would not honor this persons free will choice and wish in this particular instance.

Is it a crime to turn down an invitation to a party? A dinner? An outing? But if you do, you will suffer forever… Hardly seems like a free will choice at all. Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?

Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.

I figured that was the whole point of Him giving us free will, so that true love exists when the choice to love is present.

But if we only choose to love Him out of fear, then that love, even though it was chosen, still does not seem to be true, perfect love.

If two or multiple good options were available and we still chose Him, that would seem to be a better indicator of pure, true love, since the element of fear would be gone and it was a decision made out of total desire to be with Him, even over other good options.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

These are the choices:

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.

If you believe you have an immortal soul where are it’s origins?

Peace,
Ed

 

[Zachary]

Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.

Saying something many times doesn’t make it any truer (I have a million dollars, I have a million dollars…dang, nor yet.)

When you have 2 choices and you’re free to choose whichever you please, regardless of the consequence of your choice, that’s free will. Just because Heaven is so much better than he’ll doesn’t negate free will

If you’re standing on a cliff, you can jump with or without a parachute. Just because one leads to certain death doesn’t mean you don’t HAVE a choice, rather, it just means the choicesshould be obvious.

 

[Zachary]

I figured that was the whole point of Him giving us free will, so that true love exists when the choice to love is present.

But if we only choose to love Him out of fear, then that love, even though it was chosen, still does not seem to be true, perfect love.

If two or multiple good options were available and we still chose Him, that would seem to be a better indicator of pure, true love, since the element of fear would be gone and it was a decision made out of total desire to be with Him, even over other good options.

Choosing to love God out of fear is still better than denying yourself of His love.

Choosing love, you’ll learn more about love and leave fear behind.

 

[steve_b]

It is said that God will never force us to love Him or be with Him. He invites us all to be with Him, however, if one should reject Him and choose not to be with Him, why is the only other alternative death and torture and eternal despair? Its either be with Him or sentence yourself to death. What if someones free will choice was to be in a good place without Him or the devil? Surely He would not honor this persons free will choice and wish in this particular instance.

Bottomline, He sets the rules.

**Dt 30:**18 I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

That’s a real choice. It’s not a feux choice. Seems silly that one has to be told to choose life and blessings. One might think, what fool would choose curses and death? Yet people make such choices. Instead of loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; they choose to go against that. And there are consequences to that choice. Just like any choice we make in life.
THG:

Is it a crime to turn down an invitation to a party? A dinner? An outing? But if you do, you will suffer forever… Hardly seems like a free will choice at all. Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?

Scripture shows, God’s mercy & justice are a reality.

 

[mikekle]

Ive posted about this topic too, and IMO, it IS NOT free will at all, Sure we are allowed to live our lives as we choose, some attend church regularly, and help others, and generally live a good life, but others choose different routes, some get into illegal activities, and other trouble, but it is their choice.

I dont see why people who use their free will and choose to live a worldly life, without God in it, why should they be punished upon death for this choice? As mentioned above, it is not true free will, it is follow me, or else, suffer for eternity (no choice at all).

If it were true free will, upon those peoples death that chose not to have God in their lives, then their eternity would just be an extension of the lives they lived here on earth, no burning in the lake of fire, or any gnashing of teeth, just more of the worldly life those people freely chose.

Just because people choose to not have God in their lives, that does not mean they deserve to suffer in hell for eternity. Many people live good lives and do alot of good, but are not religious. I cannot understand why we have to worship God to have an enjoyable afterlife. This is anything but free will.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Saying something many times doesn’t make it any truer (I have a million dollars, I have a million dollars…dang, nor yet.)

When you have 2 choices and you’re free to choose whichever you please, regardless of the consequence of your choice, that’s free will. Just because Heaven is so much better than he’ll doesn’t negate free will

If you’re standing on a cliff, you can jump with or without a parachute. Just because one leads to certain death doesn’t mean you don’t HAVE a choice, rather, it just means the choicesshould be obvious.

What if I dont want to jump off a cliff at all? Will I be forced to anyway? Where is the free will in that?

 

[steve_b]

Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.

Life is loaded with consequences, good and bad…cause and effect.

Choice by definition

“An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”

It doesn’t say the possibilities are restricted to only the possibilities you want them to be. And as long as one is free to make a decision, it doesn’t violate free will

 

[Zachary]

Ive posted about this topic too, and IMO, it IS NOT free will at all, Sure we are allowed to live our lives as we choose, some attend church regularly, and help others, and generally live a good life, but others choose different routes, some get into illegal activities, and other trouble, but it is their choice.

I dont see why people who use their free will and choose to live a worldly life, without God in it, why should they be punished upon death for this choice? As mentioned above, it is not true free will, it is follow me, or else, suffer for eternity (no choice at all).

If it were true free will, upon those peoples death that chose not to have God in their lives, then their eternity would just be an extension of the lives they lived here on earth, no burning in the lake of fire, or any gnashing of teeth, just more of the worldly life those people freely chose.

Just because people choose to not have God in their lives, that does not mean they deserve to suffer in hell for eternity. Many people live good lives and do alot of good, but are not religious. I cannot understand why we have to worship God to have an enjoyable afterlife. This is anything but free will.

You’re trying to argue that something doesn’t mean what it means. I’m sorry, you’re wrong.

Also who are you (or anyone) to say what God decides is right or wrong; just or unjust?

God has decided that if you reject him during your life, you also reject him after. He could have made it otherwise but, being perfect and the Creator of all, made it how he made it And regardless you our imperfections and constant attempts to redefine right and wrong, we can’t change a thing.

Don’t let this interfere with God Truth through the Catholic Church.

 

[mikekle]

Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?

I think there very well may be a place like this, but it is just not mentioned in the bible. I just cannot see a God that claims to be so loving of mankind, that could send people who are not evil in anyway, but chose not to have God in their lives, to a literal torture chamber for eternity.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Bottomline, He sets the rules.

**Dt 30:**18 I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

That’s a real choice. It’s not a feux choice. Seems silly that one has to be told to choose life and blessings. One might think, what fool would choose curses and death? Yet people make such choices. Instead of loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; they choose to go against that. And there are consequences to that choice. Just like any choice we make in life.

Scripture shows, God’s mercy & justice are a reality.

Yes but why must it be life and blessings with Him only? Even though He is the giver of those things, He can still give them without being there. What of the whole notion of doing good and expecting no reward? Giving gifts just because. He does that now with us on earth, He could do that for an afterlife. But why not?

 

[Zachary]

What if I dont want to jump off a cliff at all? Will I be forced to anyway? Where is the free will in that?

Really? You’re overthinking. Trying to see the comparison for what it is.

Here’s another. You can breathe or you can die. There, 2 choices…figure it out.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

You’re trying to argue that something doesn’t mean what it means. I’m sorry, you’re wrong.

Also who are you (or anyone) to say what God decides is right or wrong; just or unjust?

God has decided that if you reject him during your life, you also reject him after. He could have made it otherwise but, being perfect and the Creator of all, made it how he made it And regardless you our imperfections and constant attempts to redefine right and wrong, we can’t change a thing.

Don’t let this interfere with God Truth through the Catholic Church.

Well, so much for what I have decided…

 

[Zachary]

I think there very well may be a place like this, but it is just not mentioned in the bible. I just cannot see a God that claims to be so loving of mankind, that could send people who are not evil in anyway, but chose not to have God in their lives, to a literal torture chamber for eternity.

There is no place like that. Heaven, via purgatory, or Hell. You have been granted the free will to decide. That is the Catholic truth. What you’re arguing is not Catholic in anyway.

Jesus warned us it would be a tough road but invites us to travel it because the feast is great.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Really? You’re overthinking. Trying to see the comparison for what it is.

Here’s another. You can breathe or you can die. There, 2 choices…figure it out.

Are there any stipulations to how I can breath though? Oxygen tank, life support machine, naturally? Or can I only choose one way?

Obviously I pick breathe, so i have to live in such a way that allows me to breathe. Jumping in the ocean would seem to be contrary to receiving oxygen, but what if I take an oxygen tank with me?

God says no, you must stay on land to get your oxygen only. Why?

 

[Zachary]

Well, so much for what I have decided…

Don’t twist words out of context. I CLEARLY meant God’s created the consequences and given you the map. The destination is yours to choose. That is free will and that you are rewarded or punished according to how you live out your free will is quite just.