Do we truly have free will?

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Are there any stipulations to how I can breath though? Oxygen tank, life support machine, naturally? Or can I only choose one way?

Obviously I pick breathe, so i have to live in such a way that allows me to breathe. Jumping in the ocean would seem to be contrary to receiving oxygen, but what if I take an oxygen tank with me?

God says no, you must stay on land to get your oxygen only. Why?
Except he doesn’t get all tricky…

Truly I tell you, you either exercise your free will in accordance to the Commandments or you risk your salvation. It’s up to you.

Now, I’m choosing supper. See what others have to add. Or get offline and pray. God will help you weed the noise out.
 
While there is some good here on earth, and even though it is said God is with us, it wouldnt appear that He is immediately here in person.
Of course He’s here - He’s omnipresent. He’s here keeping us in existence! We humans exist only because He wills us to “be”. We are contingent beings - contingent not only on God bringing us into existence, but contingent on God keeping us in existence at every instant.

And He’s here in Person; how else would He be present. Perhaps you meant present in some visible manner. But God is pure spirit, and pure spirits are invisible, unless for some special reason they temporarily make themselves visible. Occasionally God has chosen to manifest He presence visibly in some extraordinary way.
Why could God not make an eternal earthlike place where neither He or the devil are immediately present that He prepared for average people who reject Him?
You’re living in it; but it’s only temporary.
If you claim God is immediately here right now, wouldn’t He be violating the will of those who dont want to be with Him?
No. Violating their free will would mean taking away their freedom to choose. His presence does not violate (interfere with or take away) their freedom to choose.
If Heaven is the only place with food, why could He not in His divine mercy, donate some leftover food to the neutral place? The people would be happy to accept the food, but maybe they wouldn’t necessarily want to be around the chef or owner as they ate?
Why would they suddenly be happy to accept what they rejected before? They wouldn’t want that “food” anymore now than they did before. That “food” that God offers is a participation in His nature/life (sanctifying grace) received in the sacraments; the peace that comes from being reconciled to God; etc. Maybe you have a different idea of what that “food” would be. There is no neutral.
 
Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.
This is a very twisted way of looking at things.
  1. Free will is the capacity to make a decision. We have that capacity. So we have free will, even if we know that some choices are dumb.
  2. God does not threaten us at all. We are not threatened with death if we reject God. Rejecting God IS death. God is existence. We exist. Reject existence, and we reject that which is sustains us.
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TheHolyGhost:
Yes but why must it be life and blessings with Him only? Even though He is the giver of those things, He can still give them without being there. What of the whole notion of doing good and expecting no reward? Giving gifts just because. He does that now with us on earth, He could do that for an afterlife. But why not?
Because He IS goodness. He is not like my friend Bob - Bob invites me to a party, but I can instead stay home and read if I like, and be happy. God is not inviting us to join Him in a giant party, He is inviting us to exist fully.

Once again, rejecting God is not merely seeing some person we don’t particularly like and so deciding to hang out in a different room. It is deciding that Goodness, Existence, Truth, etc are all bad. God is not good in the sense of God is a thing that is good. God is goodness. There is, really and truly, no goodness apart from God.
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mikekle:
I dont see why people who use their free will and choose to live a worldly life, without God in it, why should they be punished upon death for this choice? As mentioned above, it is not true free will, it is follow me, or else, suffer for eternity (no choice at all).
Once again: GOD IS GOODNESS. You can’t choose to reject God and expect to still be happy, because being happy is part of seeking goodness, and goodness is God.

It is not possible to be happy apart from God. Which isn’t to say all atheists are miserable, but accepting/rejecting God goes so much deeper than merely intellectually acknowledging that He exists. Like most things, while alive we humans tend to either seek or deny God imperfectly. The atheist who works for justice is in some small way seeking and serving God. The baptized Catholic who robs and steals and generally seeks to bad for others to cause himself good is in some (larger) way rejecting God.

To emphasize: this is not a matter of deciding to hang out with Buddy Jesus or go to Hell. This is a matter of deciding if one wants to work with Goodness and Truth or in opposition to it.
 
What if I dont want to jump off a cliff at all? Will I be forced to anyway? Where is the free will in that?
We alll have to undergo physical death; free will is not involved - we have no choice. You’re going to die (“jump” in the analogy) whether you “want to” or not. But your free will choices prior to jjumping/dying have a lot to do with what you’ll experience after being “forced” to jump/die.
 
God is who he is, we either like who he is or we don’t. Personnally, I feel trapped in this binary system of “love your tender-hearted father or be tortured in the worst possible condition for ever and ever”. To me, that’s simply an abuse of power. Life to me is like being force-fed something that makes me gag and having to swallow, keep a happy face and love whoever force-feeds me with all my might, heart, soul and the rest. It’s been explained ad nauseam, but it’s just not right that I live a tormented life because Adam, aka a perfect stranger, sinned once. “Welcome to your life, there’s no turning back”. Things didn’t have to be this tragic, God willed it to be. Of course, that’s asssuming what the CC says about God is rigorously true. There’s another mortal sin, doubting the Catholic Church. If God indeed loves me, then his “love” is something that you’ll find defined in no dictionary in the whole world. Waiting for someone to bring up the trite “God is God and can do whateverr he pleases because he is God” and , last but not least, “we all deserve eternal hell by the simple fact that we are born of sinful creatures, and that God is infinitely good for the mere fact that he spares us eternal damnation”. Sorry God, sorry everyone, but even Kim Jung-Un has fans. Kudos to all who think eternal misery for one mortal sin is reasonable and just. I’d love to live in that world and be in that peculiar state of mind (sigh).
 
Once again: GOD IS GOODNESS. You can’t choose to reject God and expect to still be happy, because being happy is part of seeking goodness, and goodness is God.

.
I live my life without God in it and am for the most part pretty happy and content, my life is what I have made it (choices in the past). however I am not an atheist, I believe in God, but choose to live my life the way I see fit, my free will at work.

I do not hate God or anything like that though and respect what he did for mankind and our sins, I do believe he died on the cross for all our sins as well, but I choose to live the type of life I want to live here on earth, I have alot of friends, do not hold any hate or envy of anyone, I help other people quite often as well, without expecting to be paid either, so in general, I am a good person and am generally happy. How is this possible, since I live my life without going to church, praying, worshiping God, etc.?
 
We alll have to undergo physical death; free will is not involved - we have no choice. You’re going to die (“jump” in the analogy) whether you “want to” or not. But your free will choices prior to jjumping/dying have a lot to do with what you’ll experience after being “forced” to jump/die.
What if instead of a parachute I want to hang glide down? Or climb down? Why am I forced only between jump or parachute?
 
This is a very twisted way of looking at things.
  1. Free will is the capacity to make a decision. We have that capacity. So we have free will, even if we know that some choices are dumb.
  2. God does not threaten us at all. We are not threatened with death if we reject God. Rejecting God IS death. God is existence. We exist. Reject existence, and we reject that which is sustains us.
Because He IS goodness. He is not like my friend Bob - Bob invites me to a party, but I can instead stay home and read if I like, and be happy. God is not inviting us to join Him in a giant party, He is inviting us to exist fully.

Once again, rejecting God is not merely seeing some person we don’t particularly like and so deciding to hang out in a different room. It is deciding that Goodness, Existence, Truth, etc are all bad. God is not good in the sense of God is a thing that is good. God is goodness. There is, really and truly, no goodness apart from God.

Once again: GOD IS GOODNESS. You can’t choose to reject God and expect to still be happy, because being happy is part of seeking goodness, and goodness is God.

It is not possible to be happy apart from God. Which isn’t to say all atheists are miserable, but accepting/rejecting God goes so much deeper than merely intellectually acknowledging that He exists. Like most things, while alive we humans tend to either seek or deny God imperfectly. The atheist who works for justice is in some small way seeking and serving God. The baptized Catholic who robs and steals and generally seeks to bad for others to cause himself good is in some (larger) way rejecting God.

To emphasize: this is not a matter of deciding to hang out with Buddy Jesus or go to Hell. This is a matter of deciding if one wants to work with Goodness and Truth or in opposition to it.
Cant one work with Goodness and Truth from afar?

God could prepare a “good place” for rejectors where He isnt there, but by His divine power somehow makes it good, like He does with us here and now on earth? There is good here and God is very impersonal about it. While yes, God is here on earth which is why good things exist, but He isnt here in person.
 
God is who he is, we either like who he is or we don’t. Personnally, I feel trapped in this binary system of “love your tender-hearted father or be tortured in the worst possible condition for ever and ever”. To me, that’s simply an abuse of power. Life to me is like being force-fed something that makes me gag and having to swallow, keep a happy face and love whoever force-feeds me with all my might, heart, soul and the rest. It’s been explained ad nauseam, but it’s just not right that I live a tormented life because Adam, aks a perfect stranger, sinned once. “Welcome to your life, there’s no turning back”. Things didn’t have to be this tragic, God willed it to be. Of course, that’s asssuming what the CC says about God is rigorously true. There’s another mortal sin, doubting the Catholic Church. If God indeed loves me, then his “love” is something that you’ll find defined in no dictionary in the whole world.
This is the result of the emphasis on “personal relationship” to the exclusion of all else, I think. We forget that God is not the same sort of person that we are.

You are not choosing between liking a guy and disliking him.

You are choosing between Goodness and lack of Goodness. If you choose lack of goodness, then you choose pain.

Put it like this: saying “I wish I could reject God but not suffer” is identical to saying “I wish I could reject happiness and still be happy.”

God’s love for us is why we exist at all. Existence is the fundamental good, without which there could be no other. To cease existing would be to lose all goodness entirely, and would be worse than anything that actually happens.

As a side note, keep in mind that doubt, in the sense of being troubled by something, is no sin. Dissent is a real thing, and can be grave matter, but merely struggling with an idea or teaching is not.
 
I live my life without God in it and am for the most part pretty happy and content, my life is what I have made it (choices in the past). however I am not an atheist, I believe in God, but choose to live my life the way I see fit, my free will at work. I have alot of friends, do not hold any hate or envy of anyone, I help other people quite often as well, without expecting to be paid either, so in general, I am a good person and am generally happy. How is this possible, since I live my life without going to church, praying, worshiping God, etc.?
You inherited less of the original junk than me and many others. When you’re not too affected by the genetic defects passed on by Adam, you can have one heck of a life and do a lot of good. When you’re severely affected by original junk, you go to Church everyday, receive the Lord 365.25 days a year and remain largely the same. Go figure. Better be born with the right dispositions and genes. Otherwise, it makes things much much harder for everyone. Thing is we just don’t know how well someone like you does in the afterlife. God is extremely and exceedingly harsh and demanding, perhaps you will fall short.
 
Lack of goodness isnt choosing pain I dont think. Lack of goodness doesnt even result in “bad.” Lack of goodness means non-good, not necessarily “bad.”
 
Cant one work with Goodness and Truth from afar?

God could prepare a “good place” for rejectors where He isnt there, but by His divine power somehow makes it good, like He does with us here and now on earth? There is good here and God is very impersonal about it. While yes, God is here on earth which is why good things exist, but He isnt here in person.
I think you may not be grasping what is meant by “reject God.” But:

It is said that in heaven all are as happy as they can be, but for each, this level of happiness may be different. All glasses are full, but not all glasses are the same size. In this sense, there are degrees of experience of Goodness, which is God, which may be analogous to what you are trying to get at here. Heaven is not like some business meeting where even the introverts are forced to pretend to be preppy when they’d just as soon be reading a book.

But this won’t work for the damned. The damned are not merely less than thrilled with goodness, or even thrilled but not thrilled in an happy go lucky bounce up and down sort of way. They reject it entirely. They could be made to experience goodness as goodness, but this would require overriding them.

To be damned is to reject goodness to the point where even if experienced, it would be painful. Hell is the place where a person experiences God the least amount possible. This means there is no goodness (which means misery), but on the flip side these people would experience this goodness as pain anyway.

Think of it like this: at death, we see God with clarity, and we suddenly know what true goodness is and what it is not. If we are aligned with this goodness, then we join in. If in this clarity we see that this goodness is abhorrent to us, we flee as far as possible. This is hell.

I think many people here might benefit from examining the Eastern way of conceptualizing Hell, which (while I believe it to be equivalent) I think presents this particular dichotomy more clearly. In such a view, those who have rejected God have rejected their own fulfillment. They are therefore sick, and damaged, and have violent reactions to God’s very presence by their own choice, and so Hell is kind of like a sanitarium. The best that can be done for those who reject good.

But here is a link: easterncatholicspiritualrenewal.blogspot.com/2011/05/god-is-hell.html
 
Lack of goodness isnt choosing pain I dont think. Lack of goodness doesnt even result in “bad.” Lack of goodness means non-good, not necessarily “bad.”
Badness is not a thing. Badness is a lack or mis-prioritizing of what is good. There are not two eternal principles: good and bad. There is existence. And there is lack of existence. Existence is God and is good. It’s lack is nothing.

Rather like there is no such thing as cold as such, only lack of heat.
 
You inherited less of the original junk than me and many others. When you’re not too affected by the genetic defects passed on by Adam, you can have one heck of a life and do a lot of good. When you’re severely affected by original junk, you go to Church everyday, receive the Lord 365.25 days a year and remain largely the same. Go figure. Better be born with the right dispositions and genes. Otherwise, it makes things much much harder for everyone. Thing is we just don’t know how well someone like you does in the afterlife. God is extremely and exceedingly harsh and demanding, perhaps you will fall short.
I find it interesting how you say that what is contained in the Catechism is pessimistic, but what you cite is in fact more of a pessimistic semi-Calvinism than anything you’ll find there. This is not what Catholicism teaches.
 
Yes but why
Here’s something to consider. Who was the first to say why to God? A demon. The effects produced by the first ‘why’ were the loss of innocence in Eden, the ruin of many souls began. There is really no evil in the world which does not carry the mark of “why” to it. “Why” is the destruction of divine wisdom in souls. When God gives us a command, and we respond with why, it shows our defiance of his soverignty over us. I can imagine those in hell, to make them restless for eternity, “why” will forever, torment them.
THG:
must it be life and blessings with Him only? Even though He is the giver of those things, He can still give them without being there. What of the whole notion of doing good and expecting no reward?
The real rewards are coming in the next life. 😉
THG:
Giving gifts just because. He does that now with us on earth, He could do that for an afterlife. But why not?
Remember God’s response to Job when he was complaining about his circumstances?

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.

5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?

6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,

7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
when it burst forth from the womb;

9 when I made clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,

10 and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,

11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?

12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,

13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?

14 It is changed like clay under the seal,
and it is dyeda] like a garment.

15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.

16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?

18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.

19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,

20 that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?

21 You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,

23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?

24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

25 “Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a way for the thunderbolt,

26 to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man;

27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground put forth grass?

28 “Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?

29 From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?

30 The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 “Can you bind the chains of the Plei′ades,
or loose the cords of Orion?

32 Can you lead forth the Maz′zaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?

33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?

34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?

35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, ‘Here we are’?

36 Who has put wisdom in the clouds,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job 38&version=RSVCE#fen-RSVCE-14418b”)]
or given understanding to the mists?c]

37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,

38 when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods cleave fast together?

39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,

40 when they crouch in their dens,
or lie in wait in their covert?

41 Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God,
and wander about for lack of food?

this goes on for 3 more chapters. Job 39-41

And after that scorching rebuke, :coolinoff:Job is humbled :bowdown2: Job 42:1-6

As we know God restored everything to Job beyond his wildest dreams Job 42:6-16 :cool:

It’s good to do what God wants:)
 
There is the honest, seeking “why” which only wishes to understand.

Then there is the “why” which is no more than a veneer for dissension. The why that presumes that no answer exists, that challenges rather than seeks.

With God, the first is good. It is only the second that is bad.

Satan was thrown out not for an honest seeking “why,” but for a “what I want, not what is good.”
 
Thing is we just don’t know how well someone like you does in the afterlife. God is extremely and exceedingly harsh and demanding, perhaps you will fall short.
Well, personally I should expect to have an enjoyable afterlife, after all, I have been a generally good person, never killed anyone, or wanted to, helped people when I could, enjoyed my life here on earth, but chose to exercise my God given free will and follow my own path, However if upon my death, I find I will be punished for eternity for the simple act of NOT worshiping God, then I will be content with where I end up and would not even want to be in heaven with a God like that.

That may sound a bit extreme, and somewhat exaggerated to make my point, but GEEZ, God touts free will, but when we find out there are only 2 outcomes, and if chose to live our own life without God, even though we are good decent people all the while, we STILL end up going to place or torture and torment for eternity…Im sorry, but that is NOT free will, that is an ultimatum in my opinion.
 
Well, personally I should expect to have an enjoyable afterlife, after all, I have been a generally good person, never killed anyone, or wanted to, helped people when I could, enjoyed my life here on earth, but chose to exercise my God given free will and follow my own path, However if upon my death, I find I will be punished for eternity for the simple act of NOT worshiping God, then I will be content with where I end up and would not even want to be in heaven with a God like that.

That may sound a bit extreme, and somewhat exaggerated to make my point, but GEEZ, God touts free will, but when we find out there are only 2 outcomes, and if chose to live our own life without God, even though we are good decent people all the while, we STILL end up going to place or torture and torment for eternity…Im sorry, but that is NOT free will, that is an ultimatum in my opinion.
You are still ignoring the basic truth of existence: choosing God is choosing ourselves. A person in hell has rejected all goodness, so as not only explicitly rejected their own happiness, but also cannot be a good decent person. That is a fact. The fact that we are all occasionally too stupid to see sin for what it is is a fault with us, not with Him.
 
I think you may not be grasping what is meant by “reject God.” But:

It is said that in heaven all are as happy as they can be, but for each, this level of happiness may be different. All glasses are full, but not all glasses are the same size. In this sense, there are degrees of experience of Goodness, which is God, which may be analogous to what you are trying to get at here. Heaven is not like some business meeting where even the introverts are forced to pretend to be preppy when they’d just as soon be reading a book.

But this won’t work for the damned. The damned are not merely less than thrilled with goodness, or even thrilled but not thrilled in an happy go lucky bounce up and down sort of way. They reject it entirely. They could be made to experience goodness as goodness, but this would require overriding them.

To be damned is to reject goodness to the point where even if experienced, it would be painful. Hell is the place where a person experiences God the least amount possible. This means there is no goodness (which means misery), but on the flip side these people would experience this goodness as pain anyway.

Think of it like this: at death, we see God with clarity, and we suddenly know what true goodness is and what it is not. If we are aligned with this goodness, then we join in. If in this clarity we see that this goodness is abhorrent to us, we flee as far as possible. This is hell.

I think many people here might benefit from examining the Eastern way of conceptualizing Hell, which (while I believe it to be equivalent) I think presents this particular dichotomy more clearly. In such a view, those who have rejected God have rejected their own fulfillment. They are therefore sick, and damaged, and have violent reactions to God’s very presence by their own choice, and so **Hell is **kind of like a sanitarium. The best that can be done for those who reject good.
But here is a link: easterncatholicspiritualrenewal.blogspot.com/2011/05/god-is-hell.html
No, annihilation would. You know what’s worse than an earthly fascism? An eternal one. I don’t like life, I’m not too thrilled with my loving father in the sky for giving me a life that would bring much more pain, disappointment and heartbreak than fulfillement, excitement and joy, that’s what life does to those who are ill-equipped to face it. My soul and my heart have earned rest, but rest cannot be found in this dry well called God, who demands love, obedience or else… Besides he’s the one who thought nothing of feeding me to the lions, which giving life to someone very poorly equipped to face it is tantamount to. Remind me why being born into God’s playground, where everything he does is wonderful by virtue of the fact that he does them, is such a good thing? That this planet used to be a paradise and that it is now what it is because of one solitary sin speaks more eloquently of God than I could ever do. But feel free to be thrilled with God’s goodness and love. It’s only fair that I will suffer eternally because I don’t share your high opinion of God. That if he was 1% as loving and good as you think he is, then he would have made damn sure the 2nd half of my stupid life was gonna be as exciting, fun, fufilling as the first half was heartbreaking and mortifying. He has that kind of power, money has that kind of power, I’m working a dull and routine job, most of my dreams are well outside of my reach, my kid turned out to be as dumb, untalented and socially inept as me, life will not be good for him either (praise God). If God is good, I wonder what my life would have been like if he had not been good.:rolleyes: But thankfully, he is good, so no need to torture myself with these questions (sigh of relief). It’s tragic that God willed that I would be snatched from nonexistence knowing full well I would not do well in either life (this one and the next). What’s not to be liked about God? But enough with wishful thinking, I’m the unwilling inhabitant of God’s territory, he is the boss, I can do nothing but say, “Yes, kind master”.
 
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