Do we truly have free will?

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That this planet used to be a paradise and that it is now what it is because of one solitary sin speaks more eloquently of God than I could ever do.
GREAT point!!

I used to blame my parents for even having given birth to me, and brought me into this ‘game for souls’ between God and Satan.

I had NO choice in the matter, I was born and therefore, now only have 2 possible outcomes, wheres the ‘opt out’ option?

If I would have had the ability and knowledge about this life and what it entailed, and what happens to us in the afterlife, then I can say with 100% certainty, I would have chosen NOT to even be born into this.
 
We alll have to undergo physical death; free will is not involved - we have no choice. You’re going to die (“jump” in the analogy) whether you “want to” or not. But your free will choices prior to jjumping/dying have a lot to do with what you’ll experience after being “forced” to jump/die.
BINGO! Prepare a 'chute or die. God gives us free will and a " 'chutes for Dummies" guide. We just have to use our free will in the right way to prepare our 'chute.
 
God is who he is, we either like who he is or we don’t. Personnally, I feel trapped in this binary system of “love your tender-hearted father or be tortured in the worst possible condition for ever and ever”. To me, that’s simply an abuse of power.
God IS power. He created it, He can use it as He sees fit. We are in no place to judge what God does as good, bad, right or wrong. God is not bound by human limitation, human emotion, human “rights” etc. He cannot abuse power; it’s His power that made all that is and is His with which to do as he pleases.
 
I live my life without God in it and am for the most part pretty happy and content, my life is what I have made it (choices in the past). however I am not an atheist, I believe in God, but choose to live my life the way I see fit, my free will at work.

I do not hate God or anything like that though and respect what he did for mankind and our sins, I do believe he died on the cross for all our sins as well, but I choose to live the type of life I want to live here on earth, I have alot of friends, do not hold any hate or envy of anyone, I help other people quite often as well, without expecting to be paid either, so in general, I am a good person and am generally happy. How is this possible, since I live my life without going to church, praying, worshiping God, etc.?
You either need to accept God or change your “religion” from Catholic to something else.

You cannot simply “respect” God for the little tiny itsy bitsy favour he did by simply creating everything and giving His life to allow for our salvation. He’s not just a cool guy giving spare change for the bus.

You can live a good, happy life. But, unless you accept God with your free will, you may go to Hell. End of story. Stop trying to justify pushing God to the sidelines. You choose, you lose.
 
That’s precisely the point. If you don’t “choose” God, you lose. IOW, you really have no “choice.”
Nonsense. Free will isn’t the issue, you argue for freedom from consequences. That’s totally different.
 
No, annihilation would. You know what’s worse than an earthly fascism? An eternal one. I don’t like life, I’m not too thrilled with my loving father in the sky for giving me a life that would bring much more pain, disappointment and heartbreak than fulfillement, excitement and joy, that’s what life does to those who are ill-equipped to face it. My soul and my heart have earned rest, but rest cannot be found in this dry well called God, who demands love, obedience or else… Besides he’s the one who thought nothing of feeding me to the lions, which giving life to someone very poorly equipped to face it is tantamount to. Remind me why being born into God’s playground, where everything he does is wonderful by virtue of the fact that he does them, is such a good thing? That this planet used to be a paradise and that it is now what it is because of one solitary sin speaks more eloquently of God than I could ever do. But feel free to be thrilled with God’s goodness and love. It’s only fair that I will suffer eternally because I don’t share your high opinion of God. That if he was 1% as loving and good as you think he is, then he would have made damn sure the 2nd half of my stupid life was gonna be as exciting, fun, fufilling as the first half was heartbreaking and mortifying. He has that kind of power, money has that kind of power, I’m working a dull and routine job, most of my dreams are well outside of my reach, my kid turned out to be as dumb, untalented and socially inept as me, life will not be good for him either (praise God). If God is good, I wonder what my life would have been like if he had not been good.:rolleyes: But thankfully, he is good, so no need to torture myself with these questions (sigh of relief). It’s tragic that God willed that I would be snatched from nonexistence knowing full well I would not do well in either life (this one and the next). What’s not to be liked about God? But enough with wishful thinking, I’m the unwilling inhabitant of God’s territory, he is the boss, I can do nothing but say, “Yes, kind master”.
How about if He offered you an eternity that would be filled with excitement, fun, and fulfillment to such a degree that your mind can’t even begin to comprehend it? Would you think He was loving and good then? Because that is exactly what He does offer us.

We will, 100% guaranteed, experience suffering in this life (and I’m sorry for whatever that suffering has been in your life and that you had to experience it). The Bible tells us as much:

“Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you. Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for [someone] to devour. Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings. The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ [Jesus] will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.”

(1 Peter 5:7-10 NABRE)

Suffering is a necessary part of the human condition. By its very nature, the gift of free will includes with it the ability to choose to reject God and to embrace sin. This can cause suffering in our own lives or in the lives of others due to the effects our actions have on them. But there is hope! If we remain steadfast in our faith, the Lord promises to deliver us from our suffering. He keeps His promises. All we have to do is let Him.

When viewed from the endlessness of eternity, the span of our lifetime is nothing more than “a little.” So even for those who experience nothing but suffering in their earthly lives, God offers an endless eternity of joy and happiness with a complete absence of suffering. Yes, suffering is hard, and yes, it is understandable when we experience such suffering to question God, and even to become angry. The key though, is to trust in Him. He has promised to deliver you from it if you let Him. How do we let Him? By staying steadfast in faith and trusting that He will keep His promises.
 
It is said that God will never force us to love Him or be with Him. He invites us all to be with Him, however, if one should reject Him and choose not to be with Him, why is the only other alternative death and torture and eternal despair? Its either be with Him or sentence yourself to death. What if someones free will choice was to be in a good place without Him or the devil? Surely He would not honor this persons free will choice and wish in this particular instance.

Is it a crime to turn down an invitation to a party? A dinner? An outing? But if you do, you will suffer forever… Hardly seems like a free will choice at all. Couldn’t God, in all His divine mercy, have prepared a neutral place for those who arent evil but decline the party invitation, where there isnt any suffering or death?
What does “free will” mean?

Our “will” in having freedom of choice - Yes.

Our “will” free from any influence of moral agents and/or the world around us - No.
 
No, annihilation would. You know what’s worse than an earthly fascism? An eternal one. I don’t like life, I’m not too thrilled with my loving father in the sky for giving me a life that would bring much more pain, disappointment and heartbreak than fulfillement, excitement and joy, …
**The Less Abstract Reply: **Not having experienced your own life, it is hard to comment on the particular things you say without simply sounding like one of those happy, smiling people who tells the innocent man with the noose around his neck to count his blessings.

But the problem with sounding like one of those people is not that they are wrong, but that they’re annoying. The innocent man may be having his half of his life removed for no good reason, but he was also given the first half of his life for no good reason. We might argue that this man doesn’t deserve to die. And that’s true. But he didn’t deserve to live either. We did not merit and cannot merit our existence. And yet he did live. While natural, it is perverse, in some way, to let what we lose taint what we gained.

It is rather like the experience of reading a good book, only to find out that the last few pages are missing. This would annoy us, but only because we have come to expect our books to be complete. The annoyance would be real, but nevertheless the book did not come from us and so we cannot honestly say that we have a right to those few missing pages.

Now, I might say that had I known the book was incomplete, I would never have started it. But I only care that there was no ending because I was enjoying the book until it turned out that it was incomplete. If I wasn’t, I wouldn’t care. If I did not see it as a worthwhile experience that was missing some key elements, but instead thought it was a complete waste of time, then it wouldn’t matter to me that it was incomplete.

So if the book is such that I cared that it is not finished, a) then what was there must have been good, and b) I am comparing it to something that I cannot say that I have earned.

The annoyance comes from b. The fact that I can look around and see all of these other books, all these other lives, that to me appear to be complete and good, and I can see what they have and I don’t, and I can wish I had it. There is some real annoyance there, and it is mostly unavoidable, but there is no real rational reason to dwell on it.

Rather, we can dwell on part a. The very life we have is good, imperfect though it may be, and incomplete though it certainly is.

And yeah. Those people are annoying. It is said that life sucks, and then you die. And this is, to some extent, true. Life does suck in many ways. But you ask: why is it good to be pulled onto God’s playground where everything He does is good by definition? And the answer is because that is the only good there is. All playgrounds are God’s. You get what ever good you can get there, even if it’s not as much as you like, or you get no good at all. Not because God says it’s my way or the highway, but because there is no highway. You’ve been asking for one, sort of, but that is asking God to make something that wasn’t made by God. It is logically impossible to attain good that does not come from God. The closest thing possible to the highway is to be as completely separated from God as possible, and that is Hell.

The problem here is that you are still conceiving of God as the giant sky fairy that some atheists like to make fun of. Atheists make fun of the sky fairy for good reason - the sky fairy is arbitrary and crude and doesn’t actually even exist. But that is not what God is.

You say that I can have such a high and good opinion of God if I want, but you miss the contradiction in what you are implying. What is good, is God. This is a more fundamental truth than anything else we have said. If you have a legitimately bad opinion of God, then the God you imagine does not exist. God cannot be bad. He cannot be unfair, and he cannot be unjust.

The gist of your complaints so far have been essentially that you think you’ve been screwed over since birth, that there’s nothing you can do about it, and that you’re probably going to hell, and that that’s unfair. Chances are things aren’t as hopeless as you think they are (and even if they are, it’s always best to act as though they are not - because acting as though things are hopeless makes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

But if you’ve been putting how you’ve been made to the best use that you can - even if that best appears infinitely worse than the best that some other people that you imagine exist supposedly achieved - then you’re good. The servant who is handed 3 talents and produces 3 more is good, the guy given 2 who makes 2 is good, and if the guy who had been given one single lousy talent had produced a single lousy talent, then he’d have been good as well.

But he didn’t. The reason - and the only reason - why he had problems is because he was afraid that he would be unable to do what was expected of him, so he buried his head in the sand and gave up, then complained that his master was unfair.

So don’t do that. You seem to think that you have been given less than a talent to work with. I think you probably have more than you realize, but stop comparing yourself to some idealized perfect Christian that probably doesn’t exist, stop complaining about what you don’t have, and stop blaming God for not giving you things that He is under no obligation to give anyone. Rather, take what you have, do what you can, and know that God will judge you fairly. He has no choice. If He could be arbitrary and blame you for things outside of your control, then He wouldn’t be God.
 
**The Abstract Reply: **Whatever evils we experience here are a privation of the good that is supposed to exist.

Annihilation is the privation of all good. A person who does not exist has no good whatsoever. A person who exists in pain at least has the good of existing. Annihilation would be worse than Hell.
 
We all have crosses to bare. We all have a million choices to make in life, some that will and some that don’t impact our eternal salvation.

Time to retire this thread, I think we’re proven that we have free will and that we are not free from consequence in the application of our free will.

Any other discussions should be moved to a new thread.

God bless you all. “Ask and you shall receive.”
 
**The Abstract Reply: **Whatever evils we experience here are a privation of the good that is supposed to exist.

Annihilation is the privation of all good. A person who does not exist has no good whatsoever. A person who exists in pain at least has the good of existing. Annihilation would be worse than Hell.
God doesn’t want to let people off the hook, hence annihilation is ruled out. The reason it is ruled out is because God is infinite, and if you offend an infinite being, it only follows (it doesn’t actually, but I’m being a parrot here) that the penalty should be infinite. 5 billion people in Hell and God would not lose either his sleep or his happy smile. Annihilation is what the damned want, give them their last request. You want God, get God, you hate God, get zapped from existence. You try to make God look better than he is. You know when you’re all excited about a toy you’ve seen advertised on tv, it looks like the best thing, until you have it in your hand and realize it’s nothing like you expected.

The best analogy for God is this: you’re a mother of 4 young children, your husband has left you for your sister, you’re discouraged and in a state of shock, but at least you have a home. Until you get a letter saying you’ll be evicted from your home within 30 days if you can’t find 25 000$. You have this man who says he is your friend and cares a great deal about you, he’s a billionaire, lending or giving you that money would be nothing for him, but he chooses not to. He’s well within his right, as is God to not equip me to have a great and fulfilling life. God can do whatever the hell he wants to, but he can’t do that AND claim to love me. Eighty years of a life filled with insecurity, depression, anxiety, torment, feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, loneliness, desire to not exist is too long to wait for a God who might turn out to be nonexistent, considerably less rosy than our poetic and lyric apologists paint him as. He knew what torment awaited me in this life and the next, yet here I am thanks to God’s…love. That’s insane. But no matter what arguments I use, the sad truth is that I’m under God’s tyranny and there is no escaping it. He let life be life, he has let the people and the circumstances in it destroy me, when he had opportunities to step in, he chose not to. I’m not entirely stupid, life can be awesome when you have the winning combination of good genes, swift brain, intelligence, magnetic personality, otherwise you’re stuck settling for a stagnant life and God. And to the unfortunate ones and downcast, God offers the shabby “suck it up now as I don’ t want to help you, and live it up in the next life if you’re a good boy”. If God is perfect, we’ll have to redefine perfection. If God is love, we’ll have to redefine love. God is a perfect mixture of shabbiness, compulsion to mystify and play hide and seek. All the while pointing to Jesus as a proof of his mind-boggling love, when he could have gotten over his offended self and not have to send Jesus down here. I posit that Jesus has nothing in common with me except that he ate and had hair on his head, he was a watered-down divinity with nothing resembling humanity except his physical body. It’d be eye-opening to see what effect personal insults had on his personality compared to what devastating effects personal insults have on the personality of a 15 year old who lacks self-confidence and sel-esteem. Jesus’ humanity is a parody of humanity. I’m like a famished orphan begging for food in Africa, Jesus is a Harvard graduate who has it all and a bright future. That a man steeped in to take the punishment thta was due to a great-great-great grandfather is of no interest to me. So if God’s best sign of his love is Jesus, then he falls short.
 
Every choice has good and bad consequences, including choosing God or not.
Yes but you complain because you only want good consequences regardless of the action . You don’t want any bad consequences regardless of the actions. Therefore you think there is no free choice,

If we have no free will, we are not guilty of ANYTHING. And If we are not guilty of anything because we have no free will, then Jesus, God the Son, who spoke and all things came to be, died for nothing.
 
God doesn’t want to let people off the hook, hence annihilation is ruled out. The reason it is ruled out is because God is infinite, and if you offend an infinite being, it only follows (it doesn’t actually, but I’m being a parrot here) that the penalty should be infinite. 5 billion people in Hell and God would not lose either his sleep or his happy smile. Annihilation is what the damned want, give them their last request. You want God, get God, you hate God, get zapped from existence. You try to make God look better than he is. You know when you’re all excited about a toy you’ve seen advertised on tv, it looks like the best thing, until you have it in your hand and realize it’s nothing like you expected. The best analogy for God is this: you’re a mother of 4 young children, your husband has left you for your sister, you’re discouraged and in a state of shock, but at least you have a home. Until you get a letter saying you’ll be evicted from your home within 30 days if you can’t find 25 000$. You have this man who says he is your friend and cares a great deal about you, he’s a billionaire, lending or giving you that money would be nothing for him, but he chooses not to. He’s well within his right, as is God to not equip me to have a great and fulfilling life. God can do whatever the hell he wants to, but he can’t do that AND claim to love me. Eighty years of a life filled with insecurity, depression, anxiety, torment, feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, loneliness, desire to not exist is too long to wait for a God who might turn out to be nonexistent, considerably less rosy than our poetic and lyric apologists paint him as. He knew what torment awaited me in this life and the next, yet here I am thanks to God’s…love. That’s insane. But no matter what arguments I use, the sad truth is that I’m under God’s tyranny and there is no escaping it. He let life be life, he has let the people and the circumstances in it destroy me, when he had opportunities to step in, he chose not to. I’m not entirely stupid, life can be awesome when you have the winning combination of good genes, swift brain, intelligence, magnetic personality, otherwise you’re stuck settling for a stagnant life and God. And to the unfortunate ones and downcast, God offers the shabby “suck it up now as I don’ t want to help you, and live it up in the next life if you’re a good boy”. If God is perfect, we’ll have to redefine perfection. If God is love, we’ll have to redefine love. God is a perfect mixture of shabbiness, compulsion to mystify and play hide and seek. All the while pointing to Jesus as a proof of his mind-boggling love, when he could have gotten his offended self and not have to send Jesus down here. I posit that Jesus has nothing in common with me except that he ate and had hair on his head, he was a watered-down divinity with nothing resembling humanity except his physical body. It’d be eye-opening to see what personal insults had on his personality compared to what persoanl insults have on the personality of a 15 year old who lacks self-confidence and sel-esteem. Jesus’ humanity is a parody of humanity. I’m like a famished orphan begging for food in Africa, Jesus is a Harvard graduate who has it all and a bright future. That a man steeped in to take the punishment thta was due to a great-great-great grandfather is of no interest to me. So if God’s best sign of his love is Jesus, then he falls short.
Unless you think this is a happy smile:



You’re wrong.

Look, I know it’s hard to grasp. But if there is one thing we know about God, that we know more fundamentally even than that Hell exists, we know that God is good.

If Hell were truly worse than annihilation, then annihilation would be what would happen and the Catholic Church would be wrong. This isn’t the case, but I’m making a point here: God’s goodness is the most fundamental truth there is.

You’re projecting your unhappiness onto the religion, and twisting the religion where it doesn’t fit. I don’t know why. I don’t know what convinced you that God is evil. But it’s not true. It can’t be true. This is not the “can’t be true” of “I just can’t believe it,” this is the “can’t be true” of “it is not possible to both be a fish and not be a fish at the same time in the same way.” However else anything falls, God is good.

You say things about God that have no basis in anything at all. Why? You posit that Jesus has almost nothing in common with you. Why? You say that God could have just decided He didn’t care about sin. How is that even possible? Do you not know what sin is? For God not to be offended by sin would be like for you to not be having your arm chewed off while someone is chewing off your arm.
 
Unless you think this is a happy smile:

http://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/christ-suffering.jpg

You’re wrong.

Look, I know it’s hard to grasp. But if there is one thing we know about God, that we know more fundamentally even than that Hell exists, we know that God is good.

If Hell were truly worse than annihilation, then annihilation would be what would happen and the Catholic Church would be wrong. This isn’t the case, but I’m making a point here: God’s goodness is the most fundamental truth there is.

You’re projecting your unhappiness onto the religion, and twisting the religion where it doesn’t fit. I don’t know why. I don’t know what convinced you that God is evil. But it’s not true. It can’t be true. This is not the “can’t be true” of “I just can’t believe it,” this is the “can’t be true” of “it is not possible to both be a fish and not be a fish at the same time in the same way.” However else anything falls, God is good.

You say things about God that have no basis in anything at all. Why? You posit that Jesus has almost nothing in common with you. Why? You say that God could have just decided He didn’t care about sin. How is that even possible? Do you not know what sin is? For God not to be offended by sin would be like for you to not be having your arm chewed off while someone is chewing off your arm.
You’re not going to compare Jesus’ 3 hours of intense (granted) suffering with the gut-wrenching eternal pain, torture and despair of a damned, are you? I don’t want the crummy life that God has given me, I don’t want his stupid love if my life is any indication of how awesome his love for me is and I want to be annihilated, because I’d much rather not exist than have God on my tortured mind eternally. God’s love snatched me from the bliss of nonexistence to give me a crummy life, I fully expect that his love will keep me alive so that I can fully experience the agony of hell. He loves me that much, he wants me around. Blessing me instead of my enemies would have made things much easier, but God doesn’t like easy.

Annihilation is best, hell is worst, the damned hate you and want to die, give them what they want, mein führer. But your justice will have none of it, mein führer. Hell has everything to do with God’s justice being satisfied and nothing with it being somehow better than annihilation. It’s all about God. Even Christ’s 3 hours of suffering had to do with God, he needed a pure lamb to be sacrificed to appease his wrath.
 
You’re not going to compare Jesus’ 3 hours of intense (granted) suffering with the gut-wrenching eternal pain, torture and despair of a damned, are you? I don’t want the crummy life that God has given me, I don’t want his stupid love if my life is any indication of how awesome his love for me is and I want to be annihilated, because I’d much rather not exist than have God on my tortured mind eternally. God’s love snatched me from the bliss of nonexistence to give me a crummy life, I fully expect that his love will keep me alive so that I can fully experience the agony of hell. He loves me that much, he wants me around. Blessing me instead of my enemies would have made things much easier, but God doesn’t like easy.

Annihilation is best, hell is worst, the damned hate you and want to die, give them what they want, mein führer. But your justice will have none of it, mein führer. Hell has everything to do with God’s justice being satisfied and nothing with it being somehow better than annihilation. It’s all about God. Even Christ’s 3 hours of suffering had to do with God, he needed a pure lamb to be sacrificed to appease his wrath.
Do you think God’s pain and sorrow for the damned is limited to those three hours? Have you seen an image of the sacred heart? On fire, wrapped in thorns, and dripping blood? That isn’t just about those three hours.

And again, you’re twisting the meaning of the crucifixion. It is not merely that God needed a pure lamb, it is that only God could fix what we messed up. That sin is death, and not a pretty one at that. And even further: that God suffers when we sin, that God knows we sin, and is willing to suffer through it and help us out of it so that we might not only return to where we were before we tainted ourselves, but exceed our natural state. That we were made to be complete, that we take that image of completeness that we are supposed to be and smash it into a million shards, and that God is willing to endure the cuts made by those shards in order to put us back together. And much, much more. It was a very real event, but it was also a symbol of a greater reality, of how much God will go through to help us be whole.

But you are right that it’s all about God (though you ignore that God is “all about” us in a very real sense - the glory of God is man fully alive sort of thing). What you’re wrong in is the sky fairy “God is this self centered bearded man in the clouds” approach. Rather it is all about God because of God’s very nature. Complaining that it is all about God is identical to complaining that all that matters is goodness, mercy, love, and justice. Identical.

Once again, that fundamental fact: God is good. Everything else is secondary. And once again, you are ignoring this to enable a twisted interpretation of Catholicism.
 
Like I’ve said numerous times on CAF before, there is really no such thing as Free Will. You don’t “have” to follow God but the consequences for not doing so are so great (i.e., Hell) that you really have no choice.

So God may not force us to love Him but He will threaten us if we don’t.
You sure you’re not a closeted atheist? 😉
 
God doesn’t want to let people off the hook, hence annihilation is ruled out. The reason it is ruled out is because God is infinite, and if you offend an infinite being, it only follows (it doesn’t actually, but I’m being a parrot here) that the penalty should be infinite. 5 billion people in Hell and God would not lose either his sleep or his happy smile. Annihilation is what the damned want, give them their last request. You want God, get God, you hate God, get zapped from existence. You try to make God look better than he is. You know when you’re all excited about a toy you’ve seen advertised on tv, it looks like the best thing, until you have it in your hand and realize it’s nothing like you expected.

The best analogy for God is this: you’re a mother of 4 young children, your husband has left you for your sister, you’re discouraged and in a state of shock, but at least you have a home. Until you get a letter saying you’ll be evicted from your home within 30 days if you can’t find 25 000$. You have this man who says he is your friend and cares a great deal about you, he’s a billionaire, lending or giving you that money would be nothing for him, but he chooses not to. He’s well within his right, as is God to not equip me to have a great and fulfilling life. God can do whatever the hell he wants to, but he can’t do that AND claim to love me. Eighty years of a life filled with insecurity, depression, anxiety, torment, feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, loneliness, desire to not exist is too long to wait for a God who might turn out to be nonexistent, considerably less rosy than our poetic and lyric apologists paint him as. He knew what torment awaited me in this life and the next, yet here I am thanks to God’s…love. That’s insane. But no matter what arguments I use, the sad truth is that I’m under God’s tyranny and there is no escaping it. He let life be life, he has let the people and the circumstances in it destroy me, when he had opportunities to step in, he chose not to. I’m not entirely stupid, life can be awesome when you have the winning combination of good genes, swift brain, intelligence, magnetic personality, otherwise you’re stuck settling for a stagnant life and God. And to the unfortunate ones and downcast, God offers the shabby “suck it up now as I don’ t want to help you, and live it up in the next life if you’re a good boy”. If God is perfect, we’ll have to redefine perfection. If God is love, we’ll have to redefine love. God is a perfect mixture of shabbiness, compulsion to mystify and play hide and seek. All the while pointing to Jesus as a proof of his mind-boggling love, when he could have gotten over his offended self and not have to send Jesus down here. I posit that Jesus has nothing in common with me except that he ate and had hair on his head, he was a watered-down divinity with nothing resembling humanity except his physical body. It’d be eye-opening to see what effect personal insults had on his personality compared to what devastating effects personal insults have on the personality of a 15 year old who lacks self-confidence and sel-esteem. Jesus’ humanity is a parody of humanity. I’m like a famished orphan begging for food in Africa, Jesus is a Harvard graduate who has it all and a bright future. That a man steeped in to take the punishment thta was due to a great-great-great grandfather is of no interest to me. So if God’s best sign of his love is Jesus, then he falls short.
Woah, paragraphs, please!
 
Nonsense. Free will isn’t the issue, you argue for freedom from consequences. That’s totally different.
I think your point is well made for a substantial portion of God’s law. Eg. While we all agree that we have Free Will to kill people, we’d also readily agree that you won’t be coming to Heaven if you do…and that the sin is heinous and Hell is a predictable consequence.

Then there’s a set of laws/issues - typically those involving no harm to another - where the consequences seem harsh, indeed it’s not obvious that there should be adverse consequence at all. For example: prohibitions on masturbation and contraception. I can understand the sentiment that gives rise to the question…why must the “consequences” for these things be Hell? These prohibitions are not self-evident. Engaging in them would appear to harm no other person. And we as human creatures may experience very strong “needs” (witnessed by the large number of threads on masturbation on CAF). So, God made us creatures with an in-built disposition to something that does not harm another, yet has grave consequences. This is not so easy to understand.
 
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