Do we truly have free will?

[BOSS10L]

Yes but you complain because you only want good consequences regardless of the action . You don’t want any bad consequences regardless of the actions. Therefore you think there is no free choice,

If we have no free will, we are not guilty of ANYTHING. And If we are not guilty of anything because we have no free will, then Jesus, God the Son, who spoke and all things came to be, died for nothing.

Free will is a lie. There are no completely altruistic actions, even if on a subconscious level. People do good because it’s ingrained in them to do so through church, upbringing, fear of Hell, etc. Non-believers do it because of upbringing or it gives them warm fuzzes. Nothing is ever done ‘just because.’ There’s always an ulterior motive.

The only possible exceptions might be a parent shielding their child from harm. And I’d argue that the actions is merely them subconsciously protecting the future spread of their DNA. It’s hard-wired.

 

[trickster]

EXcellent posting “The Holy Ghost”… I don’t think you are far off track at all. However, I also don’t equate “free will” with the idea of accepting or rejecting Our Lord. Free will is one that is based on following the supremacy of our conscience even if it flies in the face of the orthodox community who often to often get caught up in dogma and details.

There are many possibilities. I don’t accept everything the church teaches not because I disagree or disbelieve, but because I don’t understand. (“accept” is a strong word but equally I can’t accept or reject certain things). We are in relationship with God through our Lord assisted by the Spirit etc. relationships allow for a life long relationship of getting to know God and through that getting to love God.

I don’t agree with many of the respondents that God gave us a black and white choice here and that one leads to glory and one leads to suffering…what a medieval concept. Don’t get discouraged by the black and white thinking of many of the respondents here…I believe that you can find peace on this earth without God, and what happens when you die is none of my business that will be between you and God and I am sure you will find Jesus and God a lot more loving and understanding than some of the narrow views expressed herein.

Yes, we truly have free will and it is not limited to the choice of heaven or hell…so let’s get over that medieval idea…it’s done…

 

[Robertanthony]

Free will is a lie. There are no completely altruistic actions, even if on a subconscious level. People do good because it’s ingrained in them to do so through church, upbringing, fear of Hell, etc. Non-believers do it because of upbringing or it gives them warm fuzzes. Nothing is ever done ‘just because.’ There’s always an ulterior motive.

The only possible exceptions might be a parent shielding their child from harm. **And I’d argue that the actions is merely them subconsciously protecting the future spread of their DNA. **It’s hard-wired.

I would argue otherwise. People want to protect what they see as theirs: their wife, their home, thier car, their 4k tv sets, their children…until they fall out of favour with them. Same with God, you’re his precious child until you choose to not reciprocate his awesome love for you. Then, there’s hell to pay.

As for your point about true altruism, behind every apparently selfless action lies always a “what’s in it for me”. You do it to either please God (and expect his favour), to feel good about yourself (Nietzsche referred to this as “the Christians’ little (or small) joy”, his earthly reward for doing good, to maintain the image that you’re a good person (pride), to not disappoint your parents, who think you’re a good and caring individual etc.Quite frankly, I’ve never read someone who knew more about the human psyche than Milan Kundera. Most of us are narcissics with a veneer of respectability. Forget about the DNA. Forget about men lusting for women with a certain body shape because it’s a sign of fertility, I strongly tend to like a woman with an hourglass figure and a dark complexion because I find they’re generally the most attractive, I like certain types of houses best for no ulterior motive other than the fact they’re pleasant to look at and suit my tastes.

 

[Zachary]

Free will is a lie. There are no completely altruistic actions, even if on a subconscious level. People do good because it’s ingrained in them to do so through church, upbringing, fear of Hell, etc. Non-believers do it because of upbringing or it gives them warm fuzzes. Nothing is ever done ‘just because.’ There’s always an ulterior motive.

The only possible exceptions might be a parent shielding their child from harm. And I’d argue that the actions is merely them subconsciously protecting the future spread of their DNA. It’s hard-wired.

Hardwired by God

Ps your pov is self-refuting.
Free will is (always) a lie except when I think it isn’t. Tell me, is that you or your lizard brain?

 

[Zachary]

Robertanthony. 1124545:

Trying to paint God as a bleeding heart father crying and sobbing everytime we reject him is pure anthropomorphism. God is impassible, he is happy and content, and 5 billion of screaming damned in eternal hell won’t change his happiness and contentment by one solitary iota. And he makes damn sure to sustain the damned’s existence so that they’re constantly reminded of just who they dared to mess with (i.e. his most serene majesty). You don’t want to paint God as he truly is, a loving tyrant if you love him back and say “yes, master”, a heartless, ruthless and a tyrant of unprecedented cruelty if you don’t say “yes, master”. Annihilation would be much better, and you know it. God doesn’t like “much better” he wants to avenge his offended ego. Have you ever thought that perhaps if Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against him, there may have been something about him that wasn’t so pleasant, if he was so lovable and awesome, why rebel?

They we just jealous. They used their free will. They chose wrong.

Whatever you think of God’s motives, heaven > hell.

 

[Robertanthony]

**They we just jealous. They used their free will. They chose wrong. **
Whatever you think of God’s motives, heaven > hell.

Maybe. Maybe it’s editorial bias, the Bible is not gonna paint God in a negative fashion, is it? So the fallen angels are the only culprits, God is blameless. I can’t accept that this is the best version of a god we have, Heaven and Hell, ultimatum masqueraded as “freewill”. Give your whole assent and trust to a God you’ve never heard or seen, who may very well not exist, or else… God sure has a gift for mystification, I’ll grant him that.

 

[Zachary]

Maybe. Maybe it’s editorial bias, the Bible is not gonna paint God in a negative fashion, is it? So the fallen angels are the only culprits, God is blameless. I can’t accept that this is the best version of a god we have, Heaven and Hell, ultimatum masqueraded as “freewill”. Give your whole assent and trust to a God you’ve never heard or seen, who may very well not exist, or else… God sure has a gift for mystification, I’ll grant him that.

Hmm, let’s see. God speaks the truth, promotes honesty and love. His truth may be hard to swallow (this is clearly pointed out in the bible re: eat my flesh, some followers ran off)

Satan, on the other hand, tells us to do what is best for only us and that he’ll let us rule with him. Did I mention he thinks it’s okay to lie?

So we have God who tells the truth (which, by the way, He created, so cannot do otherwise) and Satan who has the free will to lie and does so. So, yes “So the fallen angels are the only culprits*, God is blameless.”

Ultimatum or not, it’s still your application of free will that determines the consequence.

Do you also rebel against red lights? Run one and see what happens.

• (we are all sinners; only God is blameless.)

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Robertanthony:

Trying to paint God as a bleeding heart father crying and sobbing everytime we reject him is pure anthropomorphism. God is impassible, he is happy and content, and 5 billion of screaming damned in eternal hell won’t change his happiness and contentment by one solitary iota. And he makes damn sure to sustain the damned’s existence so that they’re constantly reminded of just who they dared to mess with (i.e. his most serene majesty). You don’t want to paint God as he truly is, a loving tyrant if you love him back and say “yes, master”, a heartless, ruthless and a tyrant of unprecedented cruelty if you don’t say “yes, master”. Annihilation would be much better, and you know it. God doesn’t like “much better” he wants to avenge his offended ego. Have you ever thought that perhaps if Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against him, there may have been something about him that wasn’t so pleasant, if he was so lovable and awesome, why rebel? Perhaps I see God as he truly is, perhaps you see a romanticized image? God did not step in at the crucial, pivotal, life-defining moments of my stupid life, and he is omni freaking potent, so if he doesn’t step in to help me when I beg him to, that’s because he doesn’t want to. How do you call someone who can e-a-s-i-l-y help you but does not in times of trouble and need? God favours whom he wills to favour. And it ain’t me. I know who I’m dealing with. And it/he ain’t pretty.

1. You say God doesn’t help those who need it. This is wrong. You know NOTHING about what will happen to any individual after they die, how they will be judged. All you know is that they will be judged and that you’re in a bad mood, so you assume the worst.
2. St. Nicholas would have broken your nose about 15 times by now. What you say about God is false. You’re approaching thinking about this in entirely the wrong way. You have a twisted idea of death and judgement that is, frankly, wrong, and then when a good God doesn’t fit your twisted idea, instead of realizing that your idea must then be twisted, you proceed to twist your idea of God so it fits.

I’m gonna say this one more time, because the latent St. Nicholas is rising in me, then I’m gone. God is good. This is pure, logical fact. Nothing else is possible. Anything else is a contradiction. This is the most fundamental truth of everything. This is the starting point. Start there.

Then, if your way of conceptualizing anything at all contradicts that statement, then you are wrong.

 

[steve_b]

Free will is a lie. There are no completely altruistic actions, even if on a subconscious level.

That has nothing to do with whether the will is free or not.
B:

People do good because it’s ingrained in them to do so through church, upbringing, fear of Hell, etc.

Actually we’re created by God to do good

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should do them.

and if we don’t do as we are created do, we’re no better that the fig tree Jesus talks about Matthew 3:10 **& **Luke 13:6-10 ]

otoh,

When Jesus crowns the good works we do, He is really crowning the work He has done and is doing in us. .
B:

Non-believers do it because of upbringing or it gives them warm fuzzes. Nothing is ever done ‘just because.’ There’s always an ulterior motive.

Are you saying you are a non believer because of your upbringing? That you take no responsibility at all?
B:

The only possible exceptions might be a parent shielding their child from harm. And I’d argue that the actions is merely them subconsciously protecting the future spread of their DNA. It’s hard-wired.

Who taught you that?

 

[kentmayeux]

There is a place just as you describe. It is called purgatory, a place were good people can finally submit their will to God.

 

[Rau]

There is a place just as you describe. It is called purgatory, a place were good people can finally submit their will to God.

What is the nature of purgatory? Is it a neutral experience?

 

[Nita]

1. I’m gonna say this one more time,… God is good. This is pure, logical fact. Nothing else is possible. Anything else is a contradiction. This is the most fundamental truth of everything. This is the starting point. Start there.

Then, if your way of conceptualizing anything at all contradicts that statement, then you are wrong.

That fact/truth has helped me SO MANY TIMES to understand things in Scripture and Church teaching that were initially troubling.

Eg. “Lord, if you did that, then* it had to be *for the eternal good of all involved. Why/how could it be to their benefit?”
Thinking of troubling events in Scripture from that fundamental basis (eg. the flood, Sodom, plagues…), changes the “direction” of one’s reasoning. Rather than being locked into an initial negative reaction and being controlled by it, one’s thoughts and reasoning are released - free to investigate and become absorbed with understanding why/how those events were for the good.

The same has also been true for me when it pertains to commandments from Our Lord and/or from His Church:
“Lord, if You/Church say it, then it is true and for our good. Why is this good? why the best way? Etc.”

Then comes understanding.
As Augustine said.
“Therefore do not seek to understand in order to believe, but believe that you may understand; since, except ye believe, you shall not understand.”
newadvent.org/fathers/1701029.htm

 

[steve_b]

Free will is a lie.

Is anyone forcing you to be here at Catholic Answers? To continue in this discussion? Or are you free to choose somewhere else to be and something else to do?