Do we want to unite?

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waxwing

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Can’t help but thinking about Christian unity, talk about ecumenicism can be like talk about apple pie, hotdogs and baseball…who can be against this 🙂 …ya I know more than you think. As I read various Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic writings…I have realized that Catholicism retains at least its honesty in stating it is the one true church, the others also declare their belief in being the one true church as well just need to do a bit of reasoning to come to this conclusion. By Protestants and Orthodox indicating the other 2 branches of Christianity are in error in various doctrinal and historical ways and that they are the true embodiment of Christianity as it was intended…this although unofficially, states to me that they too believe they are the one true church. So is ecumenicism really something we strive for, or is just pie in the sky stuff we like to toss around now and then for sake of appearing united? Its a broad question of course and don’t know the answer, but I think the answer may be different whether ones asks the clergy vs the laity.
 
Waxwing,

I think that the quest for unity is not a universal desire. From my observations, there are quite a few Protestants who see no point in a formal reunion with the Catholic Church – or with each other, as far as that goes.

For those of us who believe that the Reformation will not be over until there is a reconciliation with the Catholic Church, there are still some major obstacles to overcome. Fortunately, there are people of good will on both sides who actively work toward that objective although the progress is slow.

From my Lutheran perspective, things are in much better shape than they were when I was growing up 50-odd years ago. My pastor was a staunch anti-Catholic and he made sure that those of us in confirmation class knew all the horrible things of which the Catholic Church was guilty. I have moved a long way away from that mentality, yet, there are those who still harbor the old antipathy toward Catholicism. I’m not at all certain this will be overcome in the foreseeable future.

I rejoice in the work of the Lutheran/Catholic dialogues as they have helped to bring attention to those things that we share even as they note areas in which agreement on matters of doctrine has not been achieved. I pray that one day there will be a complete reconciliation and that we will be able to join together around the Lord’s table.

I have often said that if I found myself unable to remain a Lutheran in good conscience, I would have to seriously consider the Catholic Church as my landing place. I am not at that point and, even if I were to reach it, I fear that I could not be truly faithful to all aspects of Catholic doctrine and dogma. I’m still a work in progress.

A short answer to your question – “do we want to unite” – is “yes.” I believe that the divisions among Christians are scandalous and weaken our witness to Christ in the world. If I had the answer to bringing about unity I would be happy to share it with everyone.
 
gcnuss said:
Waxwing,

I think that the quest for unity is not a universal desire. From my observations, there are quite a few Protestants who see no point in a formal reunion with the Catholic Church – or with each other, as far as that goes.

For those of us who believe that the Reformation will not be over until there is a reconciliation with the Catholic Church, there are still some major obstacles to overcome. Fortunately, there are people of good will on both sides who actively work toward that objective although the progress is slow.

From my Lutheran perspective, things are in much better shape than they were when I was growing up 50-odd years ago. My pastor was a staunch anti-Catholic and he made sure that those of us in confirmation class knew all the horrible things of which the Catholic Church was guilty. I have moved a long way away from that mentality, yet, there are those who still harbor the old antipathy toward Catholicism. I’m not at all certain this will be overcome in the foreseeable future.

I rejoice in the work of the Lutheran/Catholic dialogues as they have helped to bring attention to those things that we share even as they note areas in which agreement on matters of doctrine has not been achieved. I pray that one day there will be a complete reconciliation and that we will be able to join together around the Lord’s table.

I have often said that if I found myself unable to remain a Lutheran in good conscience, I would have to seriously consider the Catholic Church as my landing place. I am not at that point and, even if I were to reach it, I fear that I could not be truly faithful to all aspects of Catholic doctrine and dogma. I’m still a work in progress.

A short answer to your question – “do we want to unite” – is “yes.” I believe that the divisions among Christians are scandalous and weaken our witness to Christ in the world. If I had the answer to bringing about unity I would be happy to share it with everyone.
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Very interesting point of view, Pastor.

I guess in simplicity you would answer: Yes, but without compromising truth. (Then think about all the denominations who claim they are 100% correct.)
 
waxwing said:
Can’t help but thinking about Christian unity, talk about ecumenicism can be like talk about apple pie, hotdogs and baseball…who can be against this 🙂 …ya I know more than you think. As I read various Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic writings…I have realized that Catholicism retains at least its honesty in stating it is the one true church, the others also declare their belief in being the one true church as well just need to do a bit of reasoning to come to this conclusion.
By Protestants and Orthodox indicating the other 2 branches of Christianity are in error in various doctrinal and historical ways and that they are the true embodiment of Christianity as it was intended…this although unofficially, states to me that they too believe they are the one true church. So is ecumenicism really something we strive for, or is just pie in the sky stuff we like to toss around now and then for sake of appearing united? Its a broad question of course and don’t know the answer, but I think the answer may be different whether ones asks the clergy vs the laity.
Click to expand...
I’m sure that when the Orthodox claim to be the original, True Church, they’re being honest too. Not all Protestants think the other Communions are in error. And the catechism definitely says that there is sometimes a degree of truth in outside religions, but there is also a degree of error.

For all the good vibes of the ecumenical movement and the calls for reuniting, I don’t think anyone seriously believes this will happen, without a miracle.

After all, when the Catholic Church prays to reunite with our seperated brothers and sisters in Christ, what the unspoken assumption is, “…and give up their heterdoxy to reconcile with the Truth of the Catholic Church.” Really, I laugh over it. The very few and only Christian communities who have done that, are ones that had never left that far anyway: for example, the exodus of high-church Anglicans to the Catholic Church after Anglicans allowed the ordination of women, or the Eastern Catholic churches (barring the Maronites).

Ecumenism is supposed to forge positive and constructive relationships with and around all members of the Body of Christ. It is not a pie in the sky. Because we are fractured is even more reason we need to work together; when you’ve a family feud, you try to get the members back on good terms, right?

I think individual churches should make an effort towards a kind of ecumenism. In my neighbourhood there are several Protestant (CoE, Baptist, Gospel) churches, but we don’t say boo to each other. It’s a shame.
 
I think the Church has always regretted the Reformation and as such admitted Its part in the separation.I don’t see Protestant churches turning Catholic but slowly loosing members who convert.The Pope has to always reach out and try to encourage protestants to come back to the Church.Even though I don’t see whole denominations converting they must always feel welcome.Its mostly misunderstandings and biases in my view.
 
valentino said:
I think the Church has always regretted the Reformation and as such admitted Its part in the separation.I don’t see Protestant churches turning Catholic but slowly loosing members who convert.The Pope has to always reach out and try to encourage protestants to come back to the Church.Even though I don’t see whole denominations converting they must always feel welcome.Its mostly misunderstandings and biases in my view.
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I agree with Valentino.

All baptized Christians are part of the same Body of Christ. Our lack of unity is very sad. We share common interests but the degree varies by specific denomination (or part thereof). Except in some unusual cases, I see us moving further apart rather than closer together.

It seems to be a common trend for mainline Protestant denominations to move towards “gay marriage” (or blessings as the first step), women pastors, abortion acceptance and relativism in general. These things make it much more difficult for us to be reunited organizationally. Instead, the more orthodox individuals will leave them on their own. That means those left behind will “on average” be less and less orthodox, further and further away from us.

Pastor Gary (gcnuss) is correct in that there are people of good will on all sides. However, that alone can not overcome our differences. Ecumenism is not about compromise but about truth.

Personally, as a life-long Lutheran (ELCA in the end), I knew I was no more after their August 2009 churchwide assembly. I wrote about that in a piece I called Protestantism trainwreck (my own story is published here).
 
=lutherlic;8153280]I agree with Valentino.
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All baptized Christians are part of the same Body of Christ. Our lack of unity is very sad. We share common interests but the degree varies by specific denomination (or part thereof). Except in some unusual cases, I see us moving further apart rather than closer together.
Click to expand...
It seems to be a common trend for mainline Protestant denominations to move towards “gay marriage” (or blessings as the first step), women pastors, abortion acceptance and relativism in general. These things make it much more difficult for us to be reunited organizationally. Instead, the more orthodox individuals will leave them on their own. That means those left behind will “on average” be less and less orthodox, further and further away from us.
Agreed. And with due respect to Pastor Gary and the many other confessional Lutherans who remain in the ELCA to fight for orthodoxy, it seems with these issues, confessional Lutheran synods like mine just seem better positioned to move ecumenism, if our leaders would just step up.
Pastor Gary (gcnuss) is correct in that there are people of good will on all sides. However, that alone can not overcome our differences. Ecumenism is not about compromise but about truth.
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Again, agreed. When Pope Benedict spoke at the Lutheran Church in ROme last year, he said, in part:
“This should make us sad because it is a sinful situation, but unity cannot be created by men…”
“We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because he is the only one that can give us unity…” “Let us hope that he will bring us to this unity that we now await.”

Man-made unity, designed in compromise is sure to fail.

Jon
 
Bezant said:
I’m sure that when the Orthodox claim to be the original, True Church, they’re being honest too. Not all Protestants think the other Communions are in error. And the catechism definitely says that there is sometimes a degree of truth in outside religions, but there is also a degree of error.

For all the good vibes of the ecumenical movement and the calls for reuniting, I don’t think anyone seriously believes this will happen, without a miracle.

After all, when the Catholic Church prays to reunite with our seperated brothers and sisters in Christ, what the unspoken assumption is, “…and give up their heterdoxy to reconcile with the Truth of the Catholic Church.” Really, I laugh over it. The very few and only Christian communities who have done that, are ones that had never left that far anyway: for example, the exodus of high-church Anglicans to the Catholic Church after Anglicans allowed the ordination of women, or the Eastern Catholic churches (barring the Maronites).

Ecumenism is supposed to forge positive and constructive relationships with and around all members of the Body of Christ. It is not a pie in the sky. Because we are fractured is even more reason we need to work together; when you’ve a family feud, you try to get the members back on good terms, right?

I think individual churches should make an effort towards a kind of ecumenism. In my neighbourhood there are several Protestant (CoE, Baptist, Gospel) churches, but we don’t say boo to each other. It’s a shame.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I misstated the Orthodox position - I always thought that the RCC was the only Church that was upfront about stating is is the one and only true Church. Yes I think it will take a miracle for serious reunification. Regarding your last line, never understood why certain Protestant don’t accept the one baptism doctrine. I think a good starting point for at least some Protestant unity would be lets just accept each others baptism. Is it really fruitful to engage in the whole infant vs adult baptism, immersion vs sprinkling debate? Is it worth dividing over?
 
gcnuss said:
Waxwing,

I think that the quest for unity is not a universal desire. From my observations, there are quite a few Protestants who see no point in a formal reunion with the Catholic Church – or with each other, as far as that goes.

For those of us who believe that the Reformation will not be over until there is a reconciliation with the Catholic Church, there are still some major obstacles to overcome. Fortunately, there are people of good will on both sides who actively work toward that objective although the progress is slow.

From my Lutheran perspective, things are in much better shape than they were when I was growing up 50-odd years ago. My pastor was a staunch anti-Catholic and he made sure that those of us in confirmation class knew all the horrible things of which the Catholic Church was guilty. I have moved a long way away from that mentality, yet, there are those who still harbor the old antipathy toward Catholicism. I’m not at all certain this will be overcome in the foreseeable future.

I rejoice in the work of the Lutheran/Catholic dialogues as they have helped to bring attention to those things that we share even as they note areas in which agreement on matters of doctrine has not been achieved. I pray that one day there will be a complete reconciliation and that we will be able to join together around the Lord’s table.

I have often said that if I found myself unable to remain a Lutheran in good conscience, I would have to seriously consider the Catholic Church as my landing place. I am not at that point and, even if I were to reach it, I fear that I could not be truly faithful to all aspects of Catholic doctrine and dogma. I’m still a work in progress.

A short answer to your question – “do we want to unite” – is “yes.” I believe that the divisions among Christians are scandalous and weaken our witness to Christ in the world. If I had the answer to bringing about unity I would be happy to share it with everyone.
Click to expand...
I think sometimes the word compromise is seen as a “no no” in terms church unity…can we decide whats essential, whats debatable/non essential and work from there.
I don’t know the answer to bringing about unity either, but I do believe one of impediments to unity is pride.
 
wisdomseeker said:
So, what is the hold up?
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Well, aside from doctrinal differences that need to be reconciled, here’s some that I see:
  1. there have been 500 years of division here in the west, 1,000 years between east and west. As valuable as Vatican II has been in started dialogue, it is going to take time.
  2. There is a history of hostility and animosity. Some of this is being overcome, but in other cases, it is not. We see accusations, disrespectful language on both sides, in short an unwillingness to see the Holy Spirit in others.
  3. For the cradle ____________ (fill in the blank: Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc), much of one’s faith tradition is acculturated. Some folks just don’t see the need for unity.
I’m sure others can name more.

Jon
 
waxwing said:
Can’t help but thinking about Christian unity, talk about ecumenicism can be like talk about apple pie, hotdogs and baseball…who can be against this 🙂 …ya I know more than you think. As I read various Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic writings…I have realized that Catholicism retains at least its honesty in stating it is the one true church, the others also declare their belief in being the one true church as well just need to do a bit of reasoning to come to this conclusion. By Protestants and Orthodox indicating the other 2 branches of Christianity are in error in various doctrinal and historical ways and that they are the true embodiment of Christianity as it was intended…this although unofficially, states to me that they too believe they are the one true church. So is ecumenicism really something we strive for, or is just pie in the sky stuff we like to toss around now and then for sake of appearing united? Its a broad question of course and don’t know the answer, but I think the answer may be different whether ones asks the clergy vs the laity.
Click to expand...
Yes, the answer will vary depending on who you ask: do we want to unite? I personally have no problems with uniting, if it’s consensual. However, I know many people who don’t want to unite. They want to be separate in their own denominations, both clergy and laity. Of course, all Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic, are united through Christ.
 
waxwing said:
I think sometimes the word compromise is seen as a “no no” in terms church unity…can we decide whats essential, whats debatable/non essential and work from there.
I don’t know the answer to bringing about unity either, but I do believe one of impediments to unity is pride.
Click to expand...
Waxwing,

It is true that “compromise” is a problem when seeking theological truth. Clearly, no one wants to compromise on what they consider to be essential truths of their faith. And, that leads to the issue of “pride.” When disagreements occur it is easy to blame them on the “pride” of one side or the other. The thinking, usually, it is the person on the other side whose pride keeps him/her from seeing the truth as it really is. Sadly, the accusation of “pride” is a quick way to alienate someone who is honestly presenting a belief that he/she holds with conviction.

This is, of course, a major factor in the slow process of reclaiming Christian unity. We pray for, and rejoice in, any small step in that direction.
 
I would love to see unity, especially between the Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. I think there is more hope for unity there (despite a pretty horrific past) than between the RC Church and the Orthiodox Church as a whole.
 
Our Augsburg Confession states this on Church Unity:
1 Our churches teach that one holy Church is to remain forever. The Church is the congregation of saints [Psalm 149:1] in which the Gospel is purely taught and the Sacraments are correctly administered. 2 For the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree about the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. 3 It is not necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies instituted by men, should be the same everywhere. 4 As Paul says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all” (Ephesians 4:5–6).
 
gcnuss said:
Waxwing,

It is true that “compromise” is a problem when seeking theological truth. Clearly, no one wants to compromise on what they consider to be essential truths of their faith. And, that leads to the issue of “pride.” When disagreements occur it is easy to blame them on the “pride” of one side or the other. The thinking, usually, it is the person on the other side whose pride keeps him/her from seeing the truth as it really is. Sadly, the accusation of “pride” is a quick way to alienate someone who is honestly presenting a belief that he/she holds with conviction.

This is, of course, a major factor in the slow process of reclaiming Christian unity. We pray for, and rejoice in, any small step in that direction.
Click to expand...
True, pride seems to take place in the other party. Think everyone takes their pride, agendas, and sensibilities into the search for unity, Important to be honest about it and move forward - if that’s possible 🤷
 
waxwing said:
Sorry if I misstated the Orthodox position - I always thought that the RCC was the only Church that was upfront about stating is is the one and only true Church. Yes I think it will take a miracle for serious reunification.

Regarding your last line, never understood why certain Protestant don’t accept the one baptism doctrine. I think a good starting point for at least some Protestant unity would be lets just accept each others baptism. Is it really fruitful to engage in the whole infant vs. adult baptism, immersion vs sprinkling debate? Is it worth dividing over?
Click to expand...
I think mainstream Protestants tend to be more unified around baptism than most other issues. I imagine that for many of the ones who aren’t as unified about baptism, for whom those issues really do matter (especially the second), they’re not very interested in unity anyway. It’s not worth dividing over.
 
waxwing said:
I think sometimes the word compromise is seen as a “no no” in terms church unity…can we decide whats essential, whats debatable/non essential and work from there.
I don’t know the answer to bringing about unity either, but I do believe one of impediments to unity is pride.
Click to expand...
If you cannot agree on doctrine such as the Eucharist, the Person of Christ, Original Sin, etc then there can be no true unity. Unity cannot be achieved by agreeing to disagree on doctrine such as JDDJ.
 
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