H
HeWillProvide
Guest
I agree that women are very involved. I just wonder why all the major decisions made are just by men… like voting for the next Pope, etc.
- Status
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
But why are men the only ones who can interpret it?
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
- The magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, comprised of the pope and bishops. *
S
Sarcelle
Guest
If the Church were a representative democracy than you can say that women do not have a voice. However the Church is a kingdom, the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ, and the bishops and popes are stewards who are commanded to implement Christ’s will not take in votes on what is right or wrong.
C
Cristiano
Guest
This is a very simple logical fallacy based on an “if then” statement. Such a kind of statements are based on a relation of causality to be true. In this case the relation of causality is that ordained people and only ordained people can define doctrines and Church policies and it is false. Doctrines are either true or false that is basic metaphysics and the truth is given from God and not from humans. Knowledge of the doctrines comes from God through anyone and that is basic epistemology. Formal declaration of a doctrine is neither metaphysics or epistemology and it can be done only by the magisterium. Policies are commonly done by men and women, just try to get a diocesan bishop to force rules on female religious orders and the wait to see the reaction from the Vatican.
J
JReducation
Guest
Absolutely not.
First, we have women doctors who have influenced the Church’s theological development.
Second, we have had women in positions of authority who have influenced Church policies regarding many things. This is not new. Women started to take on roles of responsibility and authority in the Church with St. Scholastica, the first known abbess. Abbesses were very powerful women. Before there were dioceses as we know them today, secular priests were often assigned to an area governed by an abbess.
Today, we have women theologians as well as women who work in the Vatican or off-site, but for the Vatican. There are also women who are chancellors of diocese. In my diocese one of the chancellors is a Sister of St. Joseph. She’s very good at what she does. The Vicar for Religious for the entire diocese is a Sister of the Pierced Hearts. The diocesan liturgist is another Sister of the Pierced Hearts. This is true of many dioceses around the world and in many departments at the Vatican. What women, laymen and brothers cannot be is Prefects. A prefect must be a bishop. The Prefect of Congregation X must be a bishop.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV :christmastree1:
P
PJM
Guest
YES, to the priestly positions. No to the teaching positions when rightly considered.
Blessed John Paul II taught Offically; mandating acceptance; and gave these reasons
- Sacred Tradition: these positions always; even the similr post in the OT were filled only by men.
- Holy Orders is one of the seven Sacramnets recervered for men only. Each of which was instituted by Chrsit /God. Therefore the Chruch; Pope and Magisterium lack the authority to change it
- The most impotant Sacrament is the Most Holy Eucharist. All the other sacraments; the teachings; and the Mass itself all point to it because IT IS JESUS HIMSELF.
Because Christ is male-gender anyone given the Power and Authority to literally make Christ “present” {alter Christi} is the “person of Christ” MUST too be male Gender.
To claim that women lack “any” voice is to do them and The Church a huge disfavor.
Women cannot teach IN CHURCH as a part of the Mass; but Many; very many have, and do teach outside of Mass; our Faith and it;s truths. There are even at least two proclaimed
“Doctors of the Church”; a position of hihest esteem for TEACHERS.
held by women. Saint Theresa of Avila amd Saint Theresa the Little Flower.
As to “church policy”; I’m not sure what you have in mind? But their volices are not stilled!
Nor or there opinions ignored. But your correct in that they can fill only the roles set for them.
So what exactly is the point your making?
God Bless,
pat/PJm
J
JReducation
Guest
There are three women doctors:
Teresa, Therese and Catherine.
There are many women who hold very high offices in the Vatican and at the diocesan levels. There are also women theologians, pastoral administrators, even synod directors. All of these women are part of the decision making machinery of the Church. As I said in my post above, at one time, abbesses had as much authority as a bishop. They were more educated than the priests under them and they owned the land that constituted a parish. Canonically, the priests were under their territorial jurisdiction, even though they were under the jurisdiction of the bishop for faculties. Even to this day, no priest may enter an abbey without the permission of the abbess. No male may govern a religious community of women. On the flip side there is one community where the superior of men and women must always be a woman, the Brigitine sisters, nuns and monks.
Men can be consultants to female religious communities, but they cannot hold office. Female religious form conferences under different names. In the USA we have two: LCWR and the CMSWR. Both of them work directly with the Vatican. Local bishops cannot intervene in their affairs. That’s the reason that the restructuring of the LCWR is being guided by the Vatican and not by the Conference of Bishops.
Yes, there are many examples of women being part of the theological doctrinal and policy making machinery of the Church. As I mentioned above, in our diocese we have two chancellors, one is a woman. The only people with more authority than her are the Vicar General and the bishop. All pastors, ministry heads, department heads, and every officer at the chancery answers to her. No one questions it, because she’s very competent, very knowledgeable of theology and knowledgeable of pastoral matters and understanding of the needs of the people.
We have a Franciscan Sister who is a canon lawyer and she’s a judge in a diocesan tribunal. There are less lay women in positions of authority and influence in the Church. The reason is simple. It takes years to get advanced degrees in Canon Law, theology, ministry, divinity, scripture or Church History. Many married women do not go for these degrees until their children are able to care for themselves. But I know some young mothers who are in high level pastoral positions. The Synod Director in our diocese is a wife, mother and theologian. She’s good at what she does. I wouldn’t want her job. Who wants to oversee several hundred priests, religious and laymen? :nope:
I find it interesting that men are avoiding getting appointed to positions of leadership in the Church and women want them. Do these women who want such positions know what a headache these jobs are? You study for years. Take all kinds of examinations that practically kill you. Then you get into a position where you can never please everyone and where you’re dealing with one crisis after another. The only thing more stressful is air traffic controlling.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV :christmastree1:
Teresa, Therese and Catherine.
There are many women who hold very high offices in the Vatican and at the diocesan levels. There are also women theologians, pastoral administrators, even synod directors. All of these women are part of the decision making machinery of the Church. As I said in my post above, at one time, abbesses had as much authority as a bishop. They were more educated than the priests under them and they owned the land that constituted a parish. Canonically, the priests were under their territorial jurisdiction, even though they were under the jurisdiction of the bishop for faculties. Even to this day, no priest may enter an abbey without the permission of the abbess. No male may govern a religious community of women. On the flip side there is one community where the superior of men and women must always be a woman, the Brigitine sisters, nuns and monks.
Men can be consultants to female religious communities, but they cannot hold office. Female religious form conferences under different names. In the USA we have two: LCWR and the CMSWR. Both of them work directly with the Vatican. Local bishops cannot intervene in their affairs. That’s the reason that the restructuring of the LCWR is being guided by the Vatican and not by the Conference of Bishops.
Yes, there are many examples of women being part of the theological doctrinal and policy making machinery of the Church. As I mentioned above, in our diocese we have two chancellors, one is a woman. The only people with more authority than her are the Vicar General and the bishop. All pastors, ministry heads, department heads, and every officer at the chancery answers to her. No one questions it, because she’s very competent, very knowledgeable of theology and knowledgeable of pastoral matters and understanding of the needs of the people.
We have a Franciscan Sister who is a canon lawyer and she’s a judge in a diocesan tribunal. There are less lay women in positions of authority and influence in the Church. The reason is simple. It takes years to get advanced degrees in Canon Law, theology, ministry, divinity, scripture or Church History. Many married women do not go for these degrees until their children are able to care for themselves. But I know some young mothers who are in high level pastoral positions. The Synod Director in our diocese is a wife, mother and theologian. She’s good at what she does. I wouldn’t want her job. Who wants to oversee several hundred priests, religious and laymen? :nope:
I find it interesting that men are avoiding getting appointed to positions of leadership in the Church and women want them. Do these women who want such positions know what a headache these jobs are? You study for years. Take all kinds of examinations that practically kill you. Then you get into a position where you can never please everyone and where you’re dealing with one crisis after another. The only thing more stressful is air traffic controlling.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV :christmastree1:
R
Rolltide
Guest
St. Hildegard of Bingen was added as a female Doctor of the Church back in October, so now there are four.
J
JReducation
Guest
R
Rolltide
Guest
In almost ANY venue, women have only really had a formal voice since the twentieth century. In fact, for many years, the Catholic Church was ahead of the curve, so to speak, because it DID take into account the views of women theologically.
J
JReducation
Guest
Not only that, but the Catholic Church was the only public organization in which women governed themselves, ran their own institutions, were educated and were free of male control.
Sisters and nuns ran their own lives. They were often better educated than most people around them. They owned or operated large institutions: colleges, schools, hospitals, nursing homes and other works of charity. They educated women, lay women and women religious. They managed their own money and they went where ever the superior allowed them to go.
Teresa of Avila said it best. When asked why she became a nun she responded, “Because I could not see myself under the heal of a man.” It was not until 20 years into religious life that she really experienced Christ’s call.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV :christmastree1:
P
PJM
Guest
THANKS Brother!
I knew their was but had a “senior moment” and was to lazy to look it up:blush:
Bleddesed Christmans, and thank you for your Ministry!
Pat
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
But isn’t Christs will always “right”?
And that means that it is “right” that women cannot make decisions that are on par
with men-only bishops, priests, popes,etc.
I wonder why…?
R
Rolltide
Guest
About 35 years ago, I had the great fortune of being at Mass in my local church when a tiny woman by the name of Blessed Mother Teresa snuck in the back and sat near my family and I so as not to cause a commotion. She was in my hometown for a surgery to have a pacemaker put in, our local parish was near the hospital, and our monsignor was a longtime friend of hers. Such was her fame and reputation within the Catholic Church, that everyone in her presence wanted to ask her opinion on matters, to the point that it was difficult for her to even find peace at Mass while traveling. I assure you that she had a profound influence upon decisions made in the Catholic Church in the twentieth century. As another example, Mother Angelica has been the voice of Catholicism in America on TV for a generation as the founder of EWTN.
It is dogma that only males can be priests, bishops, or the pope. That can never change. However, it does not mean that they have a unilateral grip upon the decision-making process of the church. The whole of the church must be taken into account before any type of doctrinal decision is made. The difference in administration of the day-to-day running of the bureaucracy of the church, and the managing of doctrine must also be made. Women serve in a HUGE number of bureaucratic roles within the Catholic Church.
It should also be noted that the position of cardinal was an invented honorary position to aid with the election of the pope. It isn’t connected to Apostolic Succession, so I suppose that if the pope or the bishops really wanted to, that it could be opened to women, though I’m not sure the idea has ever been entertained.
W
Wedded_to_God
Guest
Gender roles in Christianity can vary considerably today, as they have during the last two millennia. This is especially true with regards to marriage and ministry.
Certain Christian traditions ascribe different roles to men and women in certain aspects of church life - as for example in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, where men may serve as priests and women may serve as nuns or sisters, and where women may hold senior positions such as abbess, but not bishop, patriarch or pope. While various conservative Protestant denominations also hold that only men can be ordained as clergy, ordination of women is becoming increasingly common in some Protestant churches. Women have led denominations such as the Salvation Army.
Both men and women are recalled as saints within the various Christian traditions: among the women recalled as saints, there have been contemporaries of Jesus, subsequent theologians, abbesses, mystics, doctors of the church, founders of religious orders, military leaders, monarchs and martyrs, evidencing the variety of roles played by women within the life of Christianity.
According to the Gospels, Jesus instructed his followers to address God as “Father”. Within Catholicism and Orthodoxy, a particular place of veneration is reserved for Mary, the Mother of Jesus, which has kept a model of maternal virtue central to their vision of Christianity. Marian devotion is however, generally not a feature of Protestantism.
Christianity emerged from patriarchal societies that placed men in positions of authority in marriage, society and government, but, in various respects, Christ and early Christianity were more inclusive of women. According to the New Testament, Christ appointed only male apostles, but women were active from the beginning as followers of Christ. As devotion to Mary rose in popularity in Catholic Europe through the Middle Ages, so did the warrior code of chivalry which encompassed notions of courtly love and ideals of behaviour between warrior males and courtly females. From early centuries, women were not ordained to the priesthood but Christianity developed a monastic tradition which included the institution of the convent, through which women, as religious sisters and nuns, played an important role in church life and have continued through history to be active - particularly in the establishment of schools, hospitals, nursing homes and monastic settlements.
Today, gender roles in Christianity are a matter of debate among theologians and secular thinkers alike.
:angel1:
Certain Christian traditions ascribe different roles to men and women in certain aspects of church life - as for example in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, where men may serve as priests and women may serve as nuns or sisters, and where women may hold senior positions such as abbess, but not bishop, patriarch or pope. While various conservative Protestant denominations also hold that only men can be ordained as clergy, ordination of women is becoming increasingly common in some Protestant churches. Women have led denominations such as the Salvation Army.
Both men and women are recalled as saints within the various Christian traditions: among the women recalled as saints, there have been contemporaries of Jesus, subsequent theologians, abbesses, mystics, doctors of the church, founders of religious orders, military leaders, monarchs and martyrs, evidencing the variety of roles played by women within the life of Christianity.
According to the Gospels, Jesus instructed his followers to address God as “Father”. Within Catholicism and Orthodoxy, a particular place of veneration is reserved for Mary, the Mother of Jesus, which has kept a model of maternal virtue central to their vision of Christianity. Marian devotion is however, generally not a feature of Protestantism.
Christianity emerged from patriarchal societies that placed men in positions of authority in marriage, society and government, but, in various respects, Christ and early Christianity were more inclusive of women. According to the New Testament, Christ appointed only male apostles, but women were active from the beginning as followers of Christ. As devotion to Mary rose in popularity in Catholic Europe through the Middle Ages, so did the warrior code of chivalry which encompassed notions of courtly love and ideals of behaviour between warrior males and courtly females. From early centuries, women were not ordained to the priesthood but Christianity developed a monastic tradition which included the institution of the convent, through which women, as religious sisters and nuns, played an important role in church life and have continued through history to be active - particularly in the establishment of schools, hospitals, nursing homes and monastic settlements.
Today, gender roles in Christianity are a matter of debate among theologians and secular thinkers alike.
:angel1:
J
joe370
Guest
Well, I suppose this is an issue one would want to take up with Jesus. Jesus was the one who selected 12 men (13 including Paul) as leaders of His church, and they all selected male successors. Jesus’ church simply continues to follow that paradigm.
The most influential person (creature as opposed to creator) is of course our mother Mary! The blessed mother Mary, as per the catholic church, is more honored than any male leader that ever existed.
Also, most canonized saints are female…
H
HeWillProvide
Guest
YES, to the priestly positions. No to the teaching positions when rightly considered.
Blessed John Paul II taught Offically; mandating acceptance; and gave these reasons
Christ commanded the Sacrament be lived in Memory of Christ “Me.”] Lk.22:19 “[19] And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. **Do this for a commemoration of me” **
- Sacred Tradition: these positions always; even the similr post in the OT were filled only by men.
- Holy Orders is one of the seven Sacramnets recervered for men only. Each of which was instituted by Chrsit /God. Therefore the Chruch; Pope and Magisterium lack the authority to change it
- The most impotant Sacrament is the Most Holy Eucharist. All the other sacraments; the teachings; and the Mass itself all point to it because IT IS JESUS HIMSELF.
Because Christ is male-gender anyone given the Power and Authority to literally make Christ “present” {alter Christi} is the “person of Christ” MUST too be male Gender.
To claim that women lack “any” voice is to do them and The Church a huge disfavor.
Women cannot teach IN CHURCH as a part of the Mass; but Many; very many have, and do teach outside of Mass; our Faith and it;s truths. There are even at least two proclaimed
“Doctors of the Church”; a position of hihest esteem for TEACHERS.
held by women. Saint Theresa of Avila amd Saint Theresa the Little Flower.
As to “church policy”; I’m not sure what you have in mind? But their volices are not stilled!
Nor or there opinions ignored. But your correct in that they can fill only the roles set for them.
So what exactly is the point your making?
I wasn’t making a point. I was asking a question.
God Bless,
pat/PJm
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
In the Army the First Sergeant and Command Sergeant Major are not in the chain of command (they are part of the NCO support chain of command). Many Lieutenants and Captains (people who outrank the 1SG and CSM and are in the chain of command) have made the mistake of thinking that not being in the chain of command means that they (1SG and CSM) have “no voice.” This mistake is usually corrected with much embarrassment on the part of the Lieutenants and Captains. One doesn’t have to be in the chain of command to have a voice.
- Status