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Publisher
Guest
I admire him as much as I admire any man. He had his faults…he sought to serve the Light the best way he knew how…he stood against many abuses of his day…he did inspire a “reformation” of the RC.
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Madaglan
Guest
Well, if I were in Luther’s shoes, I probably would have done the same thing. What exactly is an Ecumenical Council? The Catholic Church does not identify which Councils are necessarily Ecumenical. We have St. Bellarmine to thank for establishing what would become, for the most part, the present enumeration. Luther most certainly held to the Christological teachings of the Christological Councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, in particular). The Councils Rome spoke of as binding had no authority for the Greek Christians, much less for the Coptic Christians and the Assyrian Christians.
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Genesis315
Guest
Again, we cannot do evil so that good may come. Compare the reformer saints with martin Luther and you’ll see what I mean.
Has Fr. Bouyer talked to any Eastern Orthodox lately, they expressly deny they are in communion with us. That’s what a schism is.
That’s the problem with taking the St. Ignatius quote alone and building ecclesiology from only it (as many modern Orthodox theologians have begun doing). While Eucharistic ecclesiology is an important part, you cannot completely dump Universal Ecclesiology (which has far more patristic and magisterial support than one line from one Church father) and hope to maintain any kind of unity. All you are left with is thousands of completely independent Churches instead of one united Church, one Body of Christ.
Then why call Sacraments, like the Mass, abominations?Luther never intended to break the Church. He intended to return the Church to the Gospel as found in Scripture. The sacraments were for all events and purposes purchased, as were many episcopal sees.
That’s the way I see it at least.
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Genesis315
Guest
That’s because they separated from the universal Church. They anathemetized Rome. And as St. Maximus the Confessor, a great Eastern Saint, says:Well, if I were in Luther’s shoes, I probably would have done the same thing. What exactly is an Ecumenical Council? The Catholic Church does not identify which Councils are necessarily Ecumenical. We have St. Bellarmine to thank for establishing what would become, for the most part, the present enumeration. Luther most certainly held to the Christological teachings of the Christological Councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, in particular). The Councils Rome spoke of as binding had no authority for the Greek Christians, much less for the Coptic Christians and the Assyrian Christians.
“If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God…Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world.” (St. Maximus, Letter to Peter in Mansi 10:692)
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BrandenRush
Guest
I absolutely admire Martin Luther. He was correct in his calling out of church doctrine that had run awry from the teachings of the early church and of scripture. He was also correct in calling out the abuses by church clergy but the CC would not hear of any of it just as they try to ignore and turn a blind eye to the child sex abuse scandal of today. It reminds me so much of the arrogance that the church showed Luther.
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scylla
Guest
Interesting, most every Priest, Bishop and Catholic would state that the child sex abuse is horrid.
It is absolutely against Catholic Church teaching so there is no honest comparison to an abuse of Martin Luthers time.
And actually Martin Luther protested not against Catholic Church teaching but against a distortion of it. (a straw-man which is the only way to attack the Catholic Church anyways)
No honest person can attack Catholicism’s true teaching on distortions of it or the example of bad Catholics. And I would agree that distortions of Catholic teaching or Bad Catholics should always be exposed.
If you would like to chat about this feel free to PM me.
In Christ
Scylla
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Contarini
Guest
The point is that Luther never showed any disposition to admit the possibility that he might be wrong, and his stubbornness got worse as he got older.Well, if I were in Luther’s shoes, I probably would have done the same thing. What exactly is an Ecumenical Council? The Catholic Church does not identify which Councils are necessarily Ecumenical. We have St. Bellarmine to thank for establishing what would become, for the most part, the present enumeration. Luther most certainly held to the Christological teachings of the Christological Councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, in particular). The Councils Rome spoke of as binding had no authority for the Greek Christians, much less for the Coptic Christians and the Assyrian Christians.
Edwin
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Madaglan
Guest
To which holy canons and definitions of the holy synods is St. Maximus here referring?
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Madaglan
Guest
Have the Popes done any better in matters of faith and morals?
I believe Luther was well-aware of the dangers of human interpretation, especially if he believed the Gospel to have been corrupted by worldly men.
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Madaglan
Guest
Many Eastern Orthodox see Roman Catholics as heretics. Some Eastern Orthodox see Roman Catholics as schismatics. Many Roman Catholics see Eastern Orthodox today as schismatics, btu few would dare call them heretics. They would tend to see Roman Catholic sacraments as invalid, whereas Roman Catholics admit to the validity of their mysteries. It’s a very complicated situation, only further complicated by the fact that bishops and communicants have historically passd from one communion to the other freely without much problem.
I don’t know if Fr. Bouyer has talked with any Eastern Orthodox lately. He’s long been asleep in Christ, and I don’t know where he is on the other side, or with whom he has the opportunity to converse.
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Contarini
Guest
Yes, because they don’t rely on their own intuitions but on a long history and the consensus of the Church. I’m no fan of centralized papal authority, but between the popes and a crazed German theologian I’ll take the popes any day. And I love Luther–he’s one of my favorite theologians, but a theologian is pretty small potatoes in the end compared to the Church. And the popes, for all their faults, speak for the Universal Church better than anyone else.
When practiced by other people, sure
Edwin
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Madaglan
Guest
The popes of Alexandria are pretty cool, especially Shenouda III. I do agree though: that Ratzinger guy is quite the crazed German theologian.
Is the consensus of the masses over the ages necessarily Truth?
Many members of the other major religions in the world don’t rely on their own intuitions but on a long tradition of spiritual writings and consensus. But are they right? Do they possess, are they within, the Way, the Life and the Truth?
I can’t jump into his head, but I remember reading that Luther was very concerned about this matter. I’ll check around for the book in which I believe the essay and his quotes are to be found.When practiced by other people, sure
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Contarini
Guest
Not necessarily, no. But I’m not speaking of the “consensus of the masses” but of the consensus of the Body of Christ.The popes of Alexandria are pretty cool, especially Shenouda III. I do agree though: that Ratzinger guy is quite the crazed German theologian.
Is the consensus of the masses over the ages necessarily Truth?
He spoke of the fear of being wrong as an “Anfechtung”–a temptation from the devil. As a (mostly) sane human being, Luther of course recognized that it was humanly possible for him to be wrong. But he pushed the thought away as a temptation. That is spiritually deadly.I can’t jump into his head, but I remember reading that Luther was very concerned about this matter. I’ll check around for the book in which I believe the essay and his quotes are to be found.
This is personal for me, because my grandmother was very much like this as well. I’ve seen up close how utterly disastrous this attitude is. Just as many ex-Catholics have been wounded by the institutional Church, so I and my family have been wounded by the “God speaks to me directly” attitude.
Edwin
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Scarecrow
Guest
I admire him in that he tried to reform the Church based on his convictions before leaving the church. Then after he saw there could be no reconciliation of his beliefs with the Church leadership, he focused his energy to provoke change from outside.
Based on my personal studies, I think he always thought until his death that he would be reconciled with the church eventually and didnt intend for there to be permanent division. However, as his movement grew it became too distinct to be brought back into the fold of Catholicism.
Based on my personal studies, I think he always thought until his death that he would be reconciled with the church eventually and didnt intend for there to be permanent division. However, as his movement grew it became too distinct to be brought back into the fold of Catholicism.
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Contarini
Guest
By “the church” you presumably mean what Luther would have called “the papacy” (obviously Luther didn’t think he was in schism from the church in the first place). I see no reason whatever to think that Luther either hoped or expected any such thing after 1520. What has led you to this conclusion (with which I heartily wish I could agree)?
Edwin
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Scarecrow
Guest
Edwin,
I read a book, Ill have to see if I can find it in my library, on Church history with detailed the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation pretty good. It gave me an understanding for the three main reformers, Martin Luther, Charles Zwigly an John Calvin.
Ill see if I can find it and post it here.
I read a book, Ill have to see if I can find it in my library, on Church history with detailed the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation pretty good. It gave me an understanding for the three main reformers, Martin Luther, Charles Zwigly an John Calvin.
Ill see if I can find it and post it here.
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Allweather
Guest
Lately I’ve been browsing thru some of Luther’s writing. He sure seems to have had a mean streak, but I can admire a person who shows his meanness out in the open.
My opinion is that Luther just happened at the right time, in the right place. His were ideas whose time had come, and so they caught fire. If he’d been born 100 years earlier, there’d more than likely have been a different reaction. No one man can manage a continent-wide revolution without there being substantial support from the movers and shakers of society. Kings and princes wanted out from under the Popes’ scrutiny. Luther offered a quasi-legitimate avenue for that.
My opinion is that Luther just happened at the right time, in the right place. His were ideas whose time had come, and so they caught fire. If he’d been born 100 years earlier, there’d more than likely have been a different reaction. No one man can manage a continent-wide revolution without there being substantial support from the movers and shakers of society. Kings and princes wanted out from under the Popes’ scrutiny. Luther offered a quasi-legitimate avenue for that.
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Madaglan
Guest
History is so random, isn’t it?
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mark_a
Guest
Maybe I don’t admire him but at least he didn’t toss contraception, which has been a temptation since the beginning.
Check this out:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f
Check this out:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f
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Curious
Guest
On a historical, intellectual, and relatively objective level, I’d have to say I don’t know. I haven’t read Luther. Most of the the few things I’ve learned about Luther have been here. I came here to get the story about Catholicism straight from the source, so I think I would do well to do the same about Luther and actually read some of HIS stuff and not just what people say about him, good or bad.
On a more personal level, I must admit to a sense of animosity toward the man. It’s probably irrational for me to say what I’m about to say, so please don’t flame me for it, but sometimes I can’t help but feel it’s his fault that I, and other Protestants like me, are in such a struggle for the truth about what the church ought to be. Which one out of the many MANY Protestant denoms is the truth? Or closest to the truth? Or, is the Catholic claim of being the church Jesus founded correct??
Sometimes I think if Luther wouldn’t have caused such a split, I wouldn’t be struggling for the trurth (and admittedly putting my fingers my ears and shouting, “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU, CATHOLIC CHURCH!!”).
He did cause disunity. But then again I wonder, if he never would have done it, would someone else have??
On a more personal level, I must admit to a sense of animosity toward the man. It’s probably irrational for me to say what I’m about to say, so please don’t flame me for it, but sometimes I can’t help but feel it’s his fault that I, and other Protestants like me, are in such a struggle for the truth about what the church ought to be. Which one out of the many MANY Protestant denoms is the truth? Or closest to the truth? Or, is the Catholic claim of being the church Jesus founded correct??
Sometimes I think if Luther wouldn’t have caused such a split, I wouldn’t be struggling for the trurth (and admittedly putting my fingers my ears and shouting, “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU, CATHOLIC CHURCH!!”).
He did cause disunity. But then again I wonder, if he never would have done it, would someone else have??
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