Do you Admire Martin Luther?

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I admire that he had the insight and courage to speak up against genuine abuses present in the church in his day. I deplore what he went and did about it.

Frankly, I put him in the same class as modern thinkers who correctly identify a problems and then propose a catastrophic ‘solution’ for it. Some examples of this are:
  1. abortion on demand: the ‘solution’ for women in crisis pregnancy.
  2. Condom handouts and pill prescriptions without parental consent: the ‘solution’ to teen pregnancy.
  3. Invade Iraq and place a weak and vaccillating coalition nominally in charge: the ‘solution’ to Saddam’s menace.
  4. Build a skinny and unpatrolable fence on part of the border as a ‘solution’ to the millions of illegal immigrants already here.
You get the idea. Regardless of whether or not you like my example, I hope we can agree that sometimes the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease. Luther is the poster boy for this truism.
 
You get the idea. Regardless of whether or not you like my example, I hope we can agree that sometimes the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease. Luther is the poster boy for this truism.
I entirely agree.

Edwin
 
Originally Posted by manualman:

Frankly, I put him in the same class as modern thinkers who correctly identify a problems and then propose a catastrophic ‘solution’ for it. Some examples of this are:
Thanks for your comparisons. I’m not sure though if these really paralell with what Luther did. Luther didn’t introduce, or add, solutions that would “cure” the problem. He didn’t try to throw in over-the-counter drugs to treat the symptoms, he sought for the underlying cause and attacked that with surgical, pharmaceutical accuracy. Maybe he did go to far though…

In any case, here’s my version 😃 of modern comparisons.
  1. abortion on demand: the ‘solution’ for women in crisis pregnancy.
The real problem behind crisis pregnancy is in the uncontrolable passions of sinful men and women. The solution: inserting medicine that prevents lustful thoughts and enables couples to consider and engage in the procreative act only when financially and socially secure, into the national food supply.
  1. Condom handouts and pill prescriptions without parental consent: the ‘solution’ to teen pregnancy.
This problem is averted with the first solution.
  1. Invade Iraq and place a weak and vaccillating coalition nominally in charge: the ‘solution’ to Saddam’s menace.
Saddam’s menace is rooted in the problem of the menace of society, of man, and of the world. The solution is to insert medicine that raises seratonin, dopamine and other “pleasure” chemicals into the food and water supplies of people worldwide, making them all friendly towards one another and dis-inclinded towards violence.
  1. Build a skinny and unpatrolable fence on part of the border as a ‘solution’ to the millions of illegal immigrants already here.
The problem is that we are too nationalistic, too convinced that America is a substantial reality. The solution (especially once everyone in the world is happy and loving towards one another): dissolve the government and reformulate the government within a world-friendly Federation (like on Star Trek).
 
I admire that he had the insight and courage to speak up against genuine abuses present in the church in his day. I deplore what he went and did about it.

Frankly, I put him in the same class as modern thinkers who correctly identify a problems and then propose a catastrophic ‘solution’ for it. Some examples of this are:
  1. abortion on demand: the ‘solution’ for women in crisis pregnancy.
  2. Condom handouts and pill prescriptions without parental consent: the ‘solution’ to teen pregnancy.
  3. Invade Iraq and place a weak and vaccillating coalition nominally in charge: the ‘solution’ to Saddam’s menace.
  4. Build a skinny and unpatrolable fence on part of the border as a ‘solution’ to the millions of illegal immigrants already here.
You get the idea. Regardless of whether or not you like my example, I hope we can agree that sometimes the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease. Luther is the poster boy for this truism.
I think this is one of the best descriptions of Martin Luther. Yes, there were abuses going on but Luther’s solution was not the answer. I also agree that whole time period was ripe for a rebellion.
 
I think Martin Luther had the opportunity to be a great saint and a true reformer, but he muffed it. In point of fact, from the beginning of the Church, there have been saints who were great reformers. Luther was in fact a rebel, not a reformer. Teresa of Avila was a reformer, for example.

The Church has always been open to true reform, but never through division, because Jesus prayed that we all be one,and we must be obedient to His wish that we remain joined as one. Luther in fact, divorced the Church and God hates divorce.
 
The point is that Luther never showed any disposition to admit the possibility that he might be wrong, and his stubbornness got worse as he got older.
Edwin
Agreed. I think he was, frankly, not quite in his right mind…This should probably, in many people’s minds, make him more forgiveable…Except that, neither were, IMO, Hitler & Stalin in their right minds. (Yes, I know, & I am not making a direct coimparison with Luther. Just pointing out, that being what my grandmother called “tetched in your upper works”, is NOT an excuse for what you do in your life.
If Luther was indeed as anti-semetic as the Catholic apologists paint him to be, I would also flip to NO. I would like to see if sources without an agenda also agree he was anti-semetic.

Still thinking, but those are the issues for me. Character counts.
I suspect that it may be hard to find anyone without an agenda re: Luther…I will say though, that I read, many years ago, in a book which (:o :o ) I cannot remember the name of, but I know it was NOT a Catholic book,& had the text of a letter that he wrote to one of the pastors he was overseeing…
The young man had written, asking about the baptism of Jews. (Probably controversial in any era…). Luther’s reply was, and this I remember word for word:
:eek: :eek: “The best way to baptize the Jews is to throw them off a bridge, & pronounce, ‘In the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Ghost’ just before they go down for the last time!!”:eek: :eek:

Luther gets http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/6.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/6.gif from me…I only wish I had a third thumb, to turn down on him…
 
Being a lawyer on this question, my inclination (if I vote) would be no. And I have gone back and forth on this.

The key is the wording of the question. It does not ask whether you admire what he did. It is whether you admire the person Martin Luther.

So I asked myself…how would I respond if I discovered that a contemporary I :love: (say Mother Theresa or Billy Graham) had written a text like “On Jews and Their Lies”. I dunno about anybody else, but my admiration would turn to:bigyikes: :tsktsk: :mad:

So if I would react that way concerning Mother Theresa or Billy Graham, why would I “admire” Martin Luther. Respect for what he did (posting the 95 theses) yes, but “admire” no.
 
Being a lawyer on this question, my inclination (if I vote) would be no. And I have gone back and forth on this.

The key is the wording of the question. It does not ask whether you admire what he did. It is whether you admire the person Martin Luther.

So I asked myself…how would I respond if I discovered that a contemporary I :love: (say Mother Theresa or Billy Graham) had written a text like “On Jews and Their Lies”. I dunno about anybody else, but my admiration would turn to:bigyikes: :tsktsk: :mad:

So if I would react that way concerning Mother Theresa or Billy Graham, why would I “admire” Martin Luther. Respect for what he did (posting the 95 theses) yes, but “admire” no.
But if the text was simply a product of the mindset of the day, if you were a contemporary, you’d think nothing of it since many if not most Christians of the day would read the text and just “nod”.

Many ideas and beliefs we find offensive today were simply accepted…doesn’t make it right…just makes Luther a product of his time.
 
But if the text was simply a product of the mindset of the day, if you were a contemporary, you’d think nothing of it since many if not most Christians of the day would read the text and just “nod”.

Many ideas and beliefs we find offensive today were simply accepted…doesn’t make it right…just makes Luther a product of his time.
The problem here is that there were people around during that time period where were not like that. Sheesh, even Luther in his younger years was not like that.

It seems to me that every culture has its unique set of moral issues to which the culture is blind to (example killing innocent human life prior to birth). It is the responsibility of the church to go against the grain of the culture on these issues…not to conform to the culture (Romans 12:1-2).

And I would bet that if you examine all of these time periods, you would find some of God’s people that *can and do * discern the moral blindness and decay of their respective cultures and resist it.

What troubles me is that during this time period, both the reformed and the Catholics conformed to evil of their culture (killing other Christians for their religious beliefs). The only Christians I find that resisted their culture were some anabaptists; and they were killed unmercifully by both the Catholics and Reformed.

So since I don’t give pro-abort-…sorry…-choice Christians a pass today, why should I give Luther (and particularly Calvin and Zwingli) a pass 500 years ago.
 
I completely agree with you, I believe the “Radical Reformation” of which the Anabaptists were a part of held onto Christian principles of non-violence much tighter than those of the Reformation did…I find the pogroms against the Jews evil and reprehensible…no matter what era they were conducted and no matter by whom they were authorized by…I marginally can understand the “thinking” of the day that allowed such things to happen…Europe was barbaric by todays standards…while I do believe much of Luther’s beliefs are foolish…I consider his contemporaries foolish as well…I’m sure Menno Simons held some strange beliefs…but some things he got right…non-violence and a “believers church”. I admire Luther in that he stood against the abuses of his day…Europe was “ripe” to cast off the papal rule of the church…Luther, Zwingli, Calvin all had their faults…but what leader does not?
 
You get the idea. Regardless of whether or not you like my example, I hope we can agree that sometimes the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease. Luther is the poster boy for this truism.
I do not agree.
 
Originally Posted by Publisher:

Many ideas and beliefs we find offensive today were simply accepted…doesn’t make it right…just makes Luther a product of his time.
Good point.
 
Madaglan,

Let me try to briefly summarize Luther’s ‘solutions’ that were so awry.

He correctly noted certain widespread abuses and noted that the hierarchy did so little to combat them as to suggest approval of them. From this, he (incorrectly) concluded that Sacred Tradition was not a reliable source of Divine revelation, so he had to find a way to make Sacred Scripture suffice as the only infallible source of Divine revelation. This is horrific error #1 which had the effect of shattering the previous (comparative) unity enjoyed by the church for 1,500 years and establishing every literate man who owned a bible as his own pope.

Horrific solution #2 was to view the sales of indulgences as the inevitable result of admitting the possibility that ANY physical act had any bearing on salvation, ultimately giving rise to Sola Fide and virtually requiring thoughtful later followers to reject the sacraments as actual channels of Grace as a result.
 
I think Martin Luther King, Jr., is awesome.👍 I’m glad the Lutherans made him into a bishop. Too bad the Catholics don’t like him, though.
 
Madaglan,

Let me try to briefly summarize Luther’s ‘solutions’ that were so awry.

He correctly noted certain widespread abuses and noted that the hierarchy did so little to combat them as to suggest approval of them. From this, he (incorrectly) concluded that Sacred Tradition was not a reliable source of Divine revelation, so he had to find a way to make Sacred Scripture suffice as the only infallible source of Divine revelation. This is horrific error #1 which had the effect of shattering the previous (comparative) unity enjoyed by the church for 1,500 years and establishing every literate man who owned a bible as his own pope.
Thank you. To be fair to Luther, he did not reject all Tradition. He was much more conservative than the other Reformers. Many Catholic churches became Lutheran and the people didn’t even know the religion had changed. Luther emphasized the authority of Scripture. Perhaps in doing so he forgot about Tradition and the Magisterium. I suppose in Luther’s eyes, the Magisterium was teaching untruths that directly conflicted with the clear witness of Scripture.

What’s worse: the perhaps over-emphasis of Protestantism that everyone could read and understand the Bible, or the notion that only the “learned”: the scholastics, the monks, the bishops, the cardinals and, most especially, the Popes–in short, the clergy–could correctly interpret Scripture for the Church?
Horrific solution #2 was to view the sales of indulgences as the inevitable result of admitting the possibility that ANY physical act had any bearing on salvation, ultimately giving rise to Sola Fide and virtually requiring thoughtful later followers to reject the sacraments as actual channels of Grace as a result.
You have to remember: Luther was also a monk, and an acknowledgly very pious one at that. Indulgences were a big part, but they were only the symptoms of a far greater disease (in Luther’s mind): the Church’s insistence that one is justified by faith and works. Luther’s heaviest attacks came, not against the indulgences (although he readily attacked them) but against the Roman understanding of the Mass as a sacrifice we offer in cooperation with Christ for our salvation. Luther, rather than trace the abuses to problems in church governance, traced them back to what he believed to be the root cause and the reason why reform in the Church never suceeded: the Papacy (and the Curia, and the Cardinals, and major bishops) had corrupted the simple teaching of justification by faith alone and had replaced it with a theology of works, which brought income into the Church and which made people dependent on the ecclesiastical structure.

Sola fide does tend to take away from the idea that a sacrament performed by a pastor results in the infusion of justifying grace in the participant. But then again, Luther understood grace differently. His sacramental theology is more focused on the power of the Word for the forgiveness of the sins in baptism, the Eucharist, etc. I don’t know about the other Protestant groups, but I know that confessional Lutherans still place high emphasis on the sacraments they have retained.
 
luther did what he thought he had to do. i can admire that. even a year later he thought it would be a tragedy to brake from the Church of Rome, little known fact, and i can admire that. but his errors caught up with him and he left the cat out of the bag for anyone to interpret the bible anyway they want to, which from what i have read he hated.
 
HI,
I recently read an old book on Luther by Msgr. Patrick OHare.
According to this bio, he was a rude, crude boar. He didn’t believe in free will, and became a substitute for the Pope, whom he hated.
He has enjoyed a good press over the centuries, but lots of his writing were obscene.
Nothing a man could do would cause any merit. Jesus’ justice only covered over our sins, so we remain "Justus et simul Peccator’ (Just but at the same time a sinner). Man’s soul is like a dunghill, over which it has snowed, and you can’t see under, where it is all corruption.
I can’t believe God is that stingy a person in handing out that neglible amount of grace.
Lots about Luther that there is to dislike.
mgrfin
 
Originally Posted by mgrfin:

HI,
I recently read an old book on Luther by Msgr. Patrick OHare.
According to this bio, he was a rude, crude boar. He didn’t believe in free will, and became a substitute for the Pope, whom he hated.
He has enjoyed a good press over the centuries, but lots of his writing were obscene.
Nothing a man could do would cause any merit. Jesus’ justice only covered over our sins, so we remain "Justus et simul Peccator’ (Just but at the same time a sinner). Man’s soul is like a dunghill, over which it has snowed, and you can’t see under, where it is all corruption.
I can’t believe God is that stingy a person in handing out that neglible amount of grace.
Lots about Luther that there is to dislike.
mgrfin
Many Catholic biographies tend to be less than kind towards Luther, in the same way although on the opposite side of the spectrum that many Protestant biographies exalt Luther as a new Paul.

Again, many of his political writings were virulent, but Luther wrote many, many commentaries on Sacred Scripture that were not as vicious in tone; and his Catechisms (Large and Small) are anything but crude and vile.
 
The problem here is that there were people around during that time period where were not like that. Sheesh, even Luther in his younger years was not like that.
He didn’t use that kind of language, because the circumstances were different (and perhaps because he was a less grouchy and frustrated person). I don’t think his basic view of the issues was that different.
It seems to me that every culture has its unique set of moral issues to which the culture is blind to (example killing innocent human life prior to birth). It is the responsibility of the church to go against the grain of the culture on these issues..not to conform to the culture (Romans 12:1-2).
And I would bet that if you examine all of these time periods, you would find some of God’s people that *can and do *discern the moral blindness and decay of their respective cultures and resist it.
Betting is easy. I’m just not sure it works like that. God rarely if ever zaps into people’s minds a direct knowledge of absolute moral standards. That’s why relativism (for all its obvious incoherence if taken as a description of the way things really are) is appealing to people who look at cultures comparatively. It’s obvious that our knowledge of the truth is relative, although the truth itself is not.

Yes, the Gospel brought into the world an access to divine truth that had not existed before. But it took centuries in many cases (slavery being the most obvious example) before the full implications of this were worked out–no doubt on many issues we’ve only begun to understand the Gospel.

The Church must indeed stand against the moral blindness of its times. But it does this almost always not by being “ahead” of the times but by being “behind” them–by refusing to give in to a particular distortion that has arisen in a particular culture, not by promoting some moral principle that in the natural course of history would not have arisen in anyone’s mind until centuries later.

The Catholic Church (while largely responsible for the rise of anti-Judaism) did paradoxically also hold out against it in a minimal but significant sense–that is, given what Christians believed about Jews, it’s remarkable that the Church continued to insist that Judaism could not simply be wiped out but must, in principle, be tolerated and protected (though within increasingly severe limits). Given the ferocity of Christian anti-Judaism, it’s remarkable that Rome was until the modern period one of the safest places in Europe for Jews. That is a more realistic and sober example of the way Christians did and do and can stand out against the moral blindness of their times (though fortunately there are better examples!).
The only Christians I find that resisted their culture were some anabaptists
But did they really resist their culture, or did their culture condemn them first? This is a serious debate in Anabaptist scholarship. Some would argue that if Zurich and other reformed communities had rejected infant baptism, an Anabaptist “state church” might actually have taken shape. But of course this is counterfactual speculation–and particularly fanciful, since rebaptism struck at the foundations of Christendom.

So sure, the rejection of infant baptism was radical, and the majority of Anabaptists who took that oppositional attitude toward Christendom in the direction of pacifism rather than apocalyptic violence are to be thoroughly commended.

Edwin
 
Yes. He was a crusader against corruption in the Church.
 
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