Do you Admire Martin Luther?

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Originally Posted by mgrfin:

He would not accept the teachings found in the Councils, for example, the Council of Nicea, which contains the CREDO. You say the doctrines, dogmas contained in such creed are mythys.
This is a gross error. Luther accepted the faith of Nicaea, and he emphasized the two natures in one person, confirmed at Chalcedon.
Originally Posted by mgrfin:

So, you need to back up everything with proofs from Scriptures. I have given you quotes from St. Luke’s Gospel honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary, and why we call her by that title.
Luther had a great admiration and love for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Neither can you show from Scripture that only Jesus was sinless.
Maybe these verses will offer some meditation:

2 Corinthians 5:21: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Romans 3:23: “…for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
 
Just as a clarification: Luther did not believe that anything which could not be found in Scripture needed to be done away with. He rather emphasized that only that which conformed with the Scripture should be kept. That which he believed conflicted with the Word of God (i.e. human traditions that pressumed to forgive sins) were to be done away with.

The idea of one not accpeting anything that is not “explicitly” in the Scriptures is more an Anabaptist conception of SOLA SCRIPTURA.
I disagree. Nothing in Catholic belief is conflicted with or by the Word of God. However, if there were not direct, literal proofs in Scripture he would not accept such a doctrine. What you call an Anabaptist conception was Luther’s.
mgrfin
 
This is a gross error. Luther accepted the faith of Nicaea, and he emphasized the two natures in one person, confirmed at Chalcedon.

Luther had a great admiration and love for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Maybe these verses will offer some meditation:

2 Corinthians 5:21: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Romans 3:23: “…for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
Luther accepted the doctrines found in the Nicean creed cause they were provable to him from SS, not because they were from the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

I appreciate your scriptural quotes, but I challenged FrMartin to come up with quotes which said Jesus was the only sinless One.

My point in the whole dialogue was that Sola Scriptura served Luther’s purposes. Tradition, the teaching Magisterium of the God would be something he could not oppose. He even limited Scripture to those books that proved his Justification doctrine.

Luther loved the BVM. Tell me he accepted the Assumption of Mary into heaven?
mgrfin
 
What a lovely thread this is! :whacky: There’s burnings at the stake all over the place! :mad:

I’m going to follow Jesus and leave you all to burn each other. :mad:
 
II Timothy 3:16
Yes, SS can instruct us to salvation, but we use a duality of Scripture and Tradition.

Would Timothy himself think that these Scriptures were going to contain the full deposit of faith. If he thought so, he didn’t say it.
mgrfin
 
Yes, SS can instruct us to salvation, but we use a duality of Scripture and Tradition.

**Would Timothy himself think that these Scriptures were going to contain the full deposit of faith. If he thought so, he didn’t say it.**mgrfin
No credal presentation of sola scriptura (Westminster Confession, Belgic Confession, Second Helvetic Confession, etc.) makes the claim that Scripture would be an exhaustive collection of all revelation.
 
Originally Posted by mgrfin:

I disagree. Nothing in Catholic belief is conflicted with or by the Word of God. However, if there were not direct, literal proofs in Scripture he would not accept such a doctrine. What you call an Anabaptist conception was Luther’s.
mgrfin
I mentioned “Luther did not believe” to indicate a subjective view (i.e. “according to Luther”) rather than present the material as objective fact.

Infant Baptism. Not mentioned explicitly in Scripture but Luther advocated it.
Luther accepted the doctrines found in the Nicean creed cause they were provable to him from SS, not because they were from the teaching Magisterium of the Church.
I would venture to say true on this one. 🙂
My point in the whole dialogue was that Sola Scriptura served Luther’s purposes. Tradition, the teaching Magisterium of the God would be something he could not oppose. He even limited Scripture to those books that proved his Justification doctrine.
I do have problems with his views on James. He does seem to regard it as counterfeit and not truly a God-inspired work.
Luther loved the BVM. Tell me he accepted the Assumption of Mary into heaven?
This was not made de fide until 1950, long after Luther’s time. The Eastern Churches, while not condemning the Assumption of Mary, do not accept it as necessary to salvation. Do the Eastern Christians then not love the BVM? 😦
 
Originally Posted by Calvinator:

Why do you say this?
Because of Luther’s highly nuanced preface to the Epistle of St. James. He claims that he thinks highly of the epistle, and that he sees it as valuable; but then he goes on to mention that he denies it apostolic authorship, and that he considers the work as counter to the rest of the Bible, which he holds as teaching justification by faith instead of works. He focuses on how James (in Luther’s view) over-emphasizes the goodness of the Law. He himself declares that James is not on his list of canonical books.
 
Because of Luther’s highly nuanced preface to the Epistle of St. James. He claims that he thinks highly of the epistle, and that he sees it as valuable; but then he goes on to mention that he denies it apostolic authorship, and that he considers the work as counter to the rest of the Bible, which he holds as teaching justification by faith instead of works. He focuses on how James (in Luther’s view) over-emphasizes the goodness of the Law. He himself declares that James is not on his list of canonical books.
I can’t link to it but if you go to beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com and check out the Luther Myth’s category you will see this one addressed pretty well.
 
Originally Posted by Calvinator:

I can’t link to it but if you go to beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com and check out the Luther Myth’s category you will see this one addressed pretty well.
Thanks for the link. Concerning the preface to the Epistle of James: It is a certain fact that Luther wrote this preface to his first NT edition. Even if Luther were to have removed this preface, I am not aware of any new prefaces by Luther which raised the book of James (in Luther’s eyes) to divine authorship. If you know of any links to later editions of Luther’s preface to James, I’d love to read them. I don’t remember ever having come across Luther’s retraction.
 
I can’t link to it but if you go to beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com and check out the Luther Myth’s category you will see this one addressed pretty well.
Thanks Calvinator,

I think you are referring to 10 Martin Luther Myths followed by 5 More Luther Myths. I had a similar experience when I took time out to read the Institutes of John Calvin carefully, it amounts to the same thing when one reads St. Augustines’ Christian Doctrine after he had done his Retractions. I am not sure if all three agreed on everything, but I am sure they might be some what puzzled why we are arguing about the beliefs of ancient sages, is it perhaps that we find our own beliefs boring ?

I think Luther had a pile of interesting insights, and Calvin and Augustine, but I like my own better. (that is after I have been jamming on my Epiphone EJ200) < just feels so good to be alive in Christ.

👍
Pophead
 
No credal presentation of sola scriptura (Westminster Confession, Belgic Confession, Second Helvetic Confession, etc.) makes the claim that Scripture would be an exhaustive collection of all revelation.
What do they profess then?
 
Oh, my goodness me, there is a ton more about Luther on this blog, just look down the right hand side and you will be enlightened. (it is in green print)…particularly the one titled ‘Luther’s View of CANNON of Scripture’

Truly a fabulous blog. Thank-you dear Calvinator Sir…I shall be spending sometime reading this stuff…yummy…snacks galore. Okay, I will need to concentrate on my other work but the study are so well presented and the print is so clear. Oh yes!

Luther even wrote a sermon “Two things there are which part men from the Gospel: one is angry impatience, and the other evil lust. Of these James speaks in this epistle.”

Time to catch up on some ancient sermons…still cooking after how many years ?

:coffeeread:
Pophead.
 
What do they profess then?
In a nutshell, they profess that scripture alone is the only certain, infallible norm by which all theolgy, creeds, practices, and beliefs of the Christian Church are to be guided by. I know that is a little rough, but I think it’s clear enough.

You can google for the actual text of the creeds I previously mentioned.
 
In a nutshell, they profess that scripture alone is the only certain, infallible norm by which all theolgy, creeds, practices, and beliefs of the Christian Church are to be guided by. I know that is a little rough, but I think it’s clear enough.

You can google for the actual text of the creeds I previously mentioned.
What do Presbyterians believe ? by Gordon H. Clark gives the correct understanding of Sola Scriptura from a Reformed perspective. He after all has championed the idea Sola Scriptura. (something I used to also believe but have found that it is a trifle narrow.)

Pophead.
🤷
 
On Tuesday we celebrated a saint I do admire–a true reformer–St. Cajetan. He was a contemporary of Martin Luther who saw the same abuses and excesses Luther saw. And yet, Cajetan went about reform the right way–and now he is a saint for it 🙂
 
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