Do you Admire Martin Luther?

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Genesis315:

On Tuesday we celebrated a saint I do admire–a true reformer–St. Cajetan. He was a contemporary of Martin Luther who saw the same abuses and excesses Luther saw. And yet, Cajetan went about reform the right way–and now he is a saint for it

I’ve often wondered why Cajetan isn’t very well known in Catholic circles. For example, when was the last time you’ve been to a St. Cajetan Catholic Church?

 

[Contarini]

I’ve often wondered why Cajetan isn’t very well known in Catholic circles. For example, when was the last time you’ve been to a St. Cajetan Catholic Church?

Sorry if you already know this, but St. Cajetan is different from Thomas de Vio, the theologian known as Cajetan. De Vio was not canonized.

I agree, however, that the early-sixteenth-century Catholic reformers should be better known. That’s why I use the name of one of them as an alias!

Edwin

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Contarini:

Sorry if you already know this, but St. Cajetan is different from Thomas de Vio, the theologian known as Cajetan. De Vio was not canonized.

I agree, however, that the early-sixteenth-century Catholic reformers should be better known. That’s why I use the name of one of them as an alias!

Edwin

I was pretty sure that Cardinal Cajetan was not a saint. I didn’t know about the other Cajetan who was his contemporary and who was canonized.

I agree, however, that the early-sixteenth-century Catholic reformers should be better known. That’s why I use the name of one of them as an alias!

 

[Pophead]

Father John Michael Talbot, who is without a doubt somebody worth reading, had this to say about ‘Luther’ < for the full article

The best “argument” for our own theological position is a truly Christlike life. Without this our theology is only empty words. Actions speak volumes beyond our theological opinions. By and large Catholics have learned from the Lutheran love for faith and scripture, while Lutherans have learned from Catholics the riches and depth of legitimate apostolic tradition and a radically transformed life of the saints.

What primarily constitutes this Christlikeness is to empty ourselves of our old self through the cross and resurrection of Jesus. It is only this letting go of our old self that enables us to fulfill the great commandment of love. When self is still in control, selfless love is simply impossible, because the ego is easily offended and hurt when it is disagreed with.

We often only use our own particular theology as a justification of our old ego and self will. It makes for a good camouflage because it is supposed to be the very thing that frees us from ego and pride. Yet we often get into ego-filled theological combats hiding behind the very Jesus, God, and the saints, who are supposed to free us from that same ego. I seem to recall that this was one of the big mistakes of the Scribes and Pharisees within their own theological view. Jesus didn’t like it.

Pophead
:coffeeread:

 

[revmarty]

Well, Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic term. The Church grouped Scripture and Tradition together.

SOLA SCRIPTURA is a C.C term for what we believe, scripture is able to stand on it’s own.

It was Luther who said he would not accept anything that was not explicitly in the Scriptures. SOLA SCRIPTURA comes from him.

Amen to that,scripture is sufficent, and to say isn’t is blaphemy, and calls our saviour a liar, are you willing to say that?

He would not accept the teachings found in the Councils, for example, the Council of Nicea, which contains the CREDO. You say the doctrines, dogmas contained in such creed are mythys.

It was Luther and Calvin who set the new rules: what I call Luther rules.

New rules, I say he attempted to reinstate the original rules?

So, you need to back up everything with proofs from Scriptures. I have given you quotes from St. Luke’s Gospel honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary, and why we call her by that title.

Once again I never attacked Mary be blessed, I have a problem with the story of the “Assumption” get it right. I have quoted you scripture.
.

Neither can you show from Scripture that only Jesus was sinless.

you are to blind to see, i will not show you again, a two year old can understand what you fail too.

She is the sinless Mother of God, and was honored by saints, scholars, Councils of the Church, and ordinary people from the earliest times. She commands our respect, love and admiration.

Listen Jesus is called our Savior repeatedly in Scripture, Why? because He saved us from our sin. In Luke 1:47, Mary calls God her “Savior.” Savior from what? A sinless person does not need a Savior. Sinner’s need a Savior. Mary acknowledged that God was her Savior. Therefore, Mary was acknowledging that she was a sinner.

Blasphemy from anyone is not allowed.
mgrfin

Repent my friend and be saved…

 

[whatevergirl]

Overall, all considered, do you admire Martin Luther (the Reformer in 16th-century Europe) for what he said, wrote and did concerning the Christian faith?

I don’t admire Luther…I look at Luther as entitled to his own opinions…and I respect someone for his/her own opinions. I don’t really admire though, someone who led people astray from the RCC, as the Lutheran/Protestant faith has led people to proclaiming more subjective truths (what’s good for me, might not be good for you kind of rhetoric) that you see sprouting up in more and more denominations now.

I’m no saint by any stretch, and I cannot judge Luther, nor any person who doesn’t ‘subscribe’ to the RCC’s way of thinking…but, I think Luther opened the door for distance between our Christian brothers and sisters–more than he did to bring unity.

If someone purchases a rotten piece of fruit, do you cut down all trees that bear that fruit? There were some priests (early Church fathers even perhaps) who were abusing doctrine and RCC dogma, but you don’t judge the religion as entirely lost, and build up your own.

It’s funny to me when one of my Lutheran friends, family members etc…talk about how we Catholics follow a man…(the Pope)…meanwhile…they follow a man…Luther. We don’t follow a man, we follow Christ…but we view the Pope as the successor to St Peter. Oh well.

 

[Grace_Angel]

THe Pope Excumunicating him didn’t help matters did it?

Absolutely Not!! and whilst it might be OK to say that he loved his religion and was genuine, you only have to look at the splintered body of Christ today, with its something like 30-40, 000 so called Christian denominations. Martin Luther is cause of so much break within the Christian Church.
Yes there were problems in the then Catholic Church as there are today and have been since year dot (remember Judas!!!) but the Catholic Church is always assured that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What Luther did was divide the body of Christ. Is that good? absolutely not.
Grace Angel.

 

[revmarty]

I don’t admire Luther…I look at Luther as entitled to his own opinions…and I respect someone for his/her own opinions. I don’t really admire though, someone who led people astray from the RCC, as the Lutheran/Protestant faith has led people to proclaiming more subjective truths (what’s good for me, might not be good for you kind of rhetoric) that you see sprouting up in more and more denominations now.

I’m no saint by any stretch, and I cannot judge Luther, nor any person who doesn’t ‘subscribe’ to the RCC’s way of thinking…but, I think Luther opened the door for distance between our Christian brothers and sisters–more than he did to bring unity.

I am in favor a Luthers search for the truth, I am not a Lutheran I am a Christian, that is I am a follower of Christ.
the problem with a group like the R.C.C when you disagree or oppose there teachings you have to breakaway because you are excomminicated so to answer your quote “but you don’t judge the religion as entirely lost, and build up your own.” A priest who disagrees is shut away or turned out, so what choice do they have if God called them to minister and lead, than to start a church outside of the R.C.C?

 

[revmarty]

Absolutely Not!! and whilst it might be OK to say that he loved his religion and was genuine, you only have to look at the splintered body of Christ today, with its something like 30-40, 000 so called Christian denominations. Martin Luther is cause of so much break within the Christian Church.

Yes there were problems in the then Catholic Church as there are today and have been since year dot (remember Judas!!!) but the Catholic Church is always assured that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. What Luther did was divide the body of Christ. Is that good? absolutely not.
Grace Angel.

Saying that Luther is the cause of the division in the Church today is like saying that, a child that breaks away from his or her family because they were subject to abuse physically or mentally by an over bearing and controlling parent is to blame for the for the broken family.

Many have left the Catholic church because of the errors in the teachings when compared to scripture. you see there are no errors in scripture the same supernatural power God used to produce His word has also been used to preserve it.

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

“but you don’t judge the religion as entirely lost, and build up your own.” A priest who disagrees is shut away or turned out, so what choice do they have if God called them to minister and lead, than to start a church outside of the R.C.C?

psssst…it’s not God

 

[revmarty]

psssst…it’s not God

psssssst … you wouldn’t know MD.

 

[revmarty]

psssssst … you wouldn’t know MD.

You can’t know the voice of someone you don’t listen to or speak with.

 

[Mangy_Donkey]

What do you expect me to say rev?..oh, it could be God that is telling the Priest to leave the Church and start his own. Did you forget that you were at a Catholic site? The Catholic Church teaches that it is the only true Church of Christ, so for me to think any different would be…well you know. It reminds me of all who were shocked when the Pope recently reiterated it, what on earth do they think he believes?

 

[Contarini]

I am in favor a Luthers search for the truth, I am not a Lutheran I am a Christian, that is I am a follower of Christ.
the problem with a group like the R.C.C when you disagree or oppose there teachings you have to breakaway because you are excomminicated so to answer your quote “but you don’t judge the religion as entirely lost, and build up your own.” A priest who disagrees is shut away or turned out, so what choice do they have if God called them to minister and lead, than to start a church outside of the R.C.C?

There are several options that are quite different from what the Reformers did:

1. You can consider the possibility that you are wrong (being human and all), and re-evaluate the views for which you are being condemned.
2. You can put on hold what you think is God’s call to the ministry, and take a back seat, praying for the renewal of the Church without pushing your particular views.
3. You can continue to preach as God has called you while insisting that you are a loyal member of the Church and refusing to build up your own organization or lead people away from the Church. (This was the truly heroic path to take in the Reformation–it got a number of people killed or imprisoned for life. Taking this path was not likely to win you a princely protector like Luther had, and it was pretty certain not to land you in an authoritative position within your own small city-state, as happened to Zwingli and Calvin.)
4. You can develop your own organization outside the Church, while making it clear at every opportunity that you love and respect the existing authorities of the Church and that the separation is wholly on their side. (Many Protestants falsely try to claim that this is what Luther did–it very clearly was not.)

Nothing and no one forced Luther to take the arrogant, divisive, almost blasphemous stance he did. He was impelled by his own tragic belief in the divine origin of his theological notions–classic heretical/schismatic behavior. There are many things I admire about Luther, but there is no excuse for his attitude to those with whom he differed.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[revmarty]

There are several options that are quite different from what the Reformers did:

1. You can consider the possibility that you are wrong (being human and all), and re-evaluate the views for which you are being condemned.
2. You can put on hold what you think

Thank you for your views, What you call tragic belief others call divine revelation, I am just glad that the truth is told and that people have for decades had the freedom to read and seek for the truth that is in scripture for themselves.
I think there is a particular reason that Jesus avoided the traditional RELIGIOUS rulers of his day, you see they upheld the law of moses and would have thought themselves to be the true Church and they had a monopoly on the teachings of God, but, he (Jesus) avoided them (the Church). why because they were unteachable apart from there canon, tradition, history and Church fathers, Jesus used people who were unchurched to establish his church. don’t make the same mistakes again, because Jesus will and is using men and women outside of the Catholic church.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…but, he (Jesus) avoided them (the Church). why because they were unteachable apart from there canon, tradition, history and Church fathers, Jesus used people who were unchurched to establish his church. don’t make the same mistakes again, because Jesus will and is using men and women outside of the Catholic church.

Jesus didn’t exclude unchurched people to establish His Church. Case in point: St. Paul (a very knowledgable Jew, certainly not “unchurched”). He used people outside of His Church to draw those outside of His Church into it. Case in point: St. Paul (a faithful Jew who came to understand what being a real Jew was —> following Christ).

I’m hoping Contarini responds to the call. He seems to fit the billing of what we are looking for in the Catholic Church. Someone who was on the outside looking in to join the ranks of the Catholic Church to help unite Christianity once inside of it.

 

[mgrfin]

I’m hoping Contarini responds to the call. He seems to fit the billing of what we are looking for in the Catholic Church. Someone who was on the outside looking in to join the ranks of the Catholic Church to help unite Christianity once inside of it.

Yes, Edwin, it’s about that time. Please come home.
mgrfin

 

[sosayi1960]

We always seem to be playing by Luther’s and Calvin’s game:
Sola Scriptura.

Before these Catholics arrived on the scene we also had a tradition - which was not tribual myths handed down from around the camp site. It was the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

Scriptually, however, I’m okay on it too

Luke 1: 28-30 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God
Luke 1:42 And she (Elizabeth) cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

I don’t believe Luther ever attacked the doctrine of the Church on the Virgin Mary. Maybe it was only saving grace.
mgrfin

Luther is a Saint, he made some mistakes he was human like the rest of us. Including all the Popes and Mary. Somebody had to recognize the abuses of the Gospel. He tried to change the church. It would not listen. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will change and unite all of Christianity for the return of our Savior, Jesus the Christ!

 

[revmarty]

Jesus didn’t exclude unchurched people to establish His Church. Case in point: St. Paul (a very knowledgable Jew, certainly not “unchurched”). He used people outside of His Church to draw those outside of His Church into it. Case in point: St. Paul (a faithful Jew who came to understand what being a real Jew was —> following Christ).

I’m hoping Contarini responds to the call. He seems to fit the billing of what we are looking for in the Catholic Church. Someone who was on the outside looking in to join the ranks of the Catholic Church to help unite Christianity once inside of it.

Please read my post again, you and I agree my friend, you have said exactly what I have said.

thank you

 

[mgrfin]

Sorry if you already know this, but St. Cajetan is different from Thomas de Vio, the theologian known as Cajetan. De Vio was not canonized.

I agree, however, that the early-sixteenth-century Catholic reformers should be better known. That’s why I use the name of one of them as an alias!

Edwin

St. Cajetan, like most saints, amaze me. Cardinal Cajetan committed St. Thomas’ Summa to memory. Small in statue, a big man, with a huge mind.

Gasparo Cardinal Contarini, an esoteric moniker?