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Daniel_Marsh
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I am not a catholic and I believe catholics are christians because they believe in John 3:16 and believe I Cor 15:3-5 which defines the gospel.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
I think this post illustrates the problem arising from the different meanings attributable to the terms Christian and Catholic. What does it mean to be christian? To be Catholic? It depends on how you define the terms.
In a very generic sense, a christian is simply a person who professes to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It does not necessarily mandate a particular interpretation of those teachings. Thus, early theologians defending the common beliefs of the church against heretical doctrines identified themselves as professing loyalty to the traditional “catholic” or universal beliefs held by the original apostles. Hence, the term “catholic” originally came to be understood as describing the set of christian doctrines and beliefs that were orthodox (as opposed to heterodox).
Flameburns makes a good point, though. One can be “Catholic” in the sense that they were baptized and raised in the Catholic tradition, but still not have a personal relationship with Christ. In that sense, I agree that one can be “Catholic” and posess the outward appearances of being a follower of christ - i.e. a christian - but not be a true “christian” in the third sense - the sense used by our fundamentalist and evangelical brothers and sisters in the faith.
When evangelical or fundamentalist christians use the term “christian” they are referring to a person who has established a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. (Feel free to correct or elaborate FB, if I am misstating your position.) In other words, a christian is someone who has - in their heart - “come to know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.” By that standard, there is some credit to the notion that some Catholics, especially those who are Catholic in name only, (read Ted Kennedy) give no outward sign of having a real personal relationship with Jesus. But to be technically correct, they are still “christian” in the sense that they outwardly profess to be followers of Jesus Christ.
So, the bottom line is that for some non-catholics your “denomination” does not establish whether or not you are a “christian” - it is all based upon one’s personal experience. Thus, one cannot conclude that all Catholics are Christians, any more than you can conclude all Baptists are Christians.
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DNS
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Thank you for your response.
The second answer you gave (the theological answer) is the one that I am most interested in receiving.
Now for my response:
- You are that right that a Catholic cannot simply say “I am a member of the Catholic Church, and therefore I’ll be saved.” However, if it is true (as we believe) that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church established by Christ, then church membership is for us an essential part of our journey toward salvation. After all, when the Apostles made converts, they did not want them to go start a new sect. No, they wanted them to be a member of Christ’s Church, because they knew starting a new sect was not as sure a way to salvation.
- Again, you are right that merely having a generally-good behavior is not what we should rely on for salvation – we should rely on the grace of Christ, for, as the Catholic Church teaches, it is by God’s grace alone that we are saved. However our behavior is most definitely going to play a role in our judgment. Look at what Jesus says in Matthew 19:17: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” :bible1:.
- In regard to last rights first let me quote the Book of James: “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he as committed any sins, he will be forgiven” (James 5:14-15) :bible1:. So through the sacrament of the anointing of the sick God’s grace is conferred onto the sick person, and he is saved.
- The Bible teaches that Baptism & the Eucharist not only nurture us, but are integral parts of the salvation process (see John 3:5 & 6:53-54 :bible1: ).
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estesbob
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God bless you too! And merry Christmads And no ,you didnt touch a nerve=I am always looking for an excuse to talk about my personal relationship with Jesus. It interesting to note, given the first part of your post, that i am giving “The Imitation of Christ” to my newly converted spouse for Christmas.
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estesbob
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God bless you too! And merry Christmads And no ,you didnt touch a nerve=I am always looking for an excuse to talk about my personal relationship with Jesus. It interesting to note, given the first part of your post, that i am giving “The Imitation of Christ” to my newly converted spouse for Christmas.
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RiverRock
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This always makes me laugh. Not only are we Christians, we are the ORIGINAL Christians. I just say that I’m a Catholic Christian or a born-again Catholic.
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b_justb
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Being Catholic may blind me so I assume I might be a Christian. When I get to see Jesus face to face, I’ll ask Him.
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Semper_Fi_1
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If what you are saying here is “a Catholic cannot be a Christian if he or she is upholding all Catholic dogma”, then you’re mistaken.
What you claim as our theology is not. We don’t believe good works will get us into Heaven. We believe good works are necessary to have a Christian faith, but that doesn’t mean we believe our works save us. Go read James for a full understanding of what we mean. Faith without works is dead. God incarnate came down from Heaven and was slain for me and you… so that we may enter into His kingdom. That, none of our works can match up to. But it still does not get us off of the hook of living like Christians, and to say otherwise would be going against the Gospels themselves.
God bless & have a Merry Christmas (Mass of Christ)!
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Kendy
Guest
Hi,
I hate to pick on you. I am also protestant. However, I am curious about your views on divorce. I found that many protestants don’t take Christ teachings about divorce as serious as scripture teaches.
Again, I hope I am not being offensive.
Kendy
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DNS
Guest
:tiphat: Hello again, Answers!Then what church is right the catholic,baptis,church of God please shed some light on this?. this is one of the reasons that I have stayed out of church because everyone thinks there is right.The Catholic Church is the only one that I fell is being honest to me. I’mIs there a right answer
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HELP**!!!
Reading through my previous post, I found that it was not as sufficiently clear and understandable as I would have liked
. Instead of providing clarifications I have decided to provide a link to a concise paper on this issue by Fr. John A. Hardon. Here it is. I think you will find it much the same as what I wrote, but clearer and less obscure (for example, my saying the Church teaches that she is the “surest means to salvation” was probably not a very accurate description of Church teaching).Now, I would like to answer your latest post.
The Catholic Church is the true Church. An adequate study of the Scriptures and history will reveal this. I encourage you to visit this page, which will provide you with many resources on almost any question you may have on the faith. It will show the defiecency of other Christians groups, and that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded for our salvation.
Merry Christmas :bounce:!
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James_2_24
Guest
This wrong plain and simple. We are not to be about ourselves and meet God on our terms. We are to meet God on **His terms. ** What are His terms? Well, Jesus Christ suffered and died for His Church and he created the Church Himself for a reason. Protestant denominations were created by men, plain and simple. We are all called to enter into the true Church of God and not look after our own comfort. Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, and many others put comfort, family, friends, and employment aside to enter into the truth. Truth above comfort, Truth above self, Christ above all!
God Bless
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Kendy
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If I could offer a little advice as a protestant. I have noticed there;s a lot of talk on this site about history and research. Every someone asks a question, someone invariably responds by giving him a long reading list.
Now, this must be reflective of the way many of you came to the church because it was true for the catholics I grew up with. I have no problem with reading. I went to graduate school at U of Chicago so I am used to doing a good bit of reading. You might appreciate knowing that I am currently reading Kempis. However, I just don’t think it’s particular effective evangelism to give people these history lessons. Having a head knowledge of church history (or even of God) does not necessarily translate into loving him. Ok, it may have worked for you, but I suspect that you might be a like me, a little nerdy
. Not sure it will conect with most people. You couldn’t get my mom to read a book if you gave a $1000. Maybe, the bible occasionally, but that’s it.What people need is to feel loved by God and loved by their neighbor. I know you hate those pesky feelings, but human beings have them and they do matter. So, preaching and living that message of love might be more effective at bringing them to the church than telling them that a second century church father said X, Y, and Z. I just don’t see Jesus saying, “Come all ye who are burdened and heaven-ladden and I will give you a history lesson.”
Just a thought
With Love,
Kendy
P.S. I am not saying that prostestant are better at living a message of love so don’t get all uptight. Although I do think they are better at saying plainly, “Jesus loves you.” Without the history lesson. Once people believe this; you can give them the history lesson if you like.
On the other hand, maybe history is your comparative advantage
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Yes as long as a church baptizes in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit then they are Christian, and whether they believe it or not are Catholic to certain degree, at our mass we invite all baptized christians that are not in full communion with the Church (non Catholic) to ask Jesus to to come to them spiritually in our communion, and all Catholic who are not in mortal sin to join us in the Eucharist, for the ones going through RCIA they are asked to leave and reflect on the liturgy of the word.
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AquinasXVI
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Kandy:
What you believe as the personal relationship with Jesus is of course of supreme importance as to being a Christian…no sober Catholic will argue that…they will even back you up.
But to poohpooh history, theology, ecclesiology, apologetics is tantamount to putting Christianity in a vauum tube with just you and God.
We are human beings who live in space and time…events, teachings, tragedies of religious nature affect us whether we recognize it or not. Your specific worldview besides the imperical learning you’ve been doing since you’ve been born for the most part is passed on from someone else. Many of what you think is all yours actually have have been ‘put into you’ either by study or someone’s influence.
So, we have to if we want an intelligent discussion to bring in all the factors that are involved regarding a specific issue. This does not in any way digress from the importance of the personal relationship with Christ, rather, it will enhance that personal relationship if we knew how, who and where all these things we believe come from.
We believe in the BOTH-AND’s of the faith(Christ is True God AND true man, man is BOTH spirit AND body, etc.etc.). We do not sacrifice one side of the paradox like many of our separated bretheren do.
in XT
What you believe as the personal relationship with Jesus is of course of supreme importance as to being a Christian…no sober Catholic will argue that…they will even back you up.
But to poohpooh history, theology, ecclesiology, apologetics is tantamount to putting Christianity in a vauum tube with just you and God.
We are human beings who live in space and time…events, teachings, tragedies of religious nature affect us whether we recognize it or not. Your specific worldview besides the imperical learning you’ve been doing since you’ve been born for the most part is passed on from someone else. Many of what you think is all yours actually have have been ‘put into you’ either by study or someone’s influence.
So, we have to if we want an intelligent discussion to bring in all the factors that are involved regarding a specific issue. This does not in any way digress from the importance of the personal relationship with Christ, rather, it will enhance that personal relationship if we knew how, who and where all these things we believe come from.
We believe in the BOTH-AND’s of the faith(Christ is True God AND true man, man is BOTH spirit AND body, etc.etc.). We do not sacrifice one side of the paradox like many of our separated bretheren do.
in XT
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
April, from a former Southern Baptist, later Independant Baptist; I want to thankyou for your comments, I hope you find great Christian fellowship here on this site, and any answers you may be searching for in the process.
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DNS
Guest
Thanks for your response, Kendy, and Merry ChristmasIf I could offer a little advice as a protestant. I have noticed there;s a lot of talk on this site about history and research. Every someone asks a question, someone invariably responds by giving him a long reading list.
Now, this must be reflective of the way many of you came to the church because it was true for the catholics I grew up with. I have no problem with reading. I went to graduate school at U of Chicago so I am used to doing a good bit of reading. You might appreciate knowing that I am currently reading Kempis. However, I just don’t think it’s particular effective evangelism to give people these history lessons. Having a head knowledge of church history (or even of God) does not necessarily translate into loving him. Ok, it may have worked for you, but I suspect that you might be a like me, a little nerdy
What people need is to feel loved by God and loved by their neighbor. I know you hate those pesky feelings, but human beings have them and they do matter. So, preaching and living that message of love might be more effective at bringing them to the church than telling them that a second century church father said X, Y, and Z. I just don’t see Jesus saying, “Come all ye who are burdened and heaven-ladden and I will give you a history lesson.”
Just a thought
With Love,
Kendy
P.S. I am not saying that prostestant are better at living a message of love so don’t get all uptight. Although I do think they are better at saying plainly, “Jesus loves you.” Without the history lesson. Once people believe this; you can give them the history lesson if you like.
On the other hand, maybe history is your comparative advantage
!Actually I tend to agree with you that it is often best to interact with people in your own words rather than giving them a reading list. I just decided to be brief and provide a link since the poster’s question was so broad (the question was "Which church is right? The Catholics, Baptists…). Your insight was quite good, however, I think.
I also agree with you that it is important to emphasize Jesus’ love, justice, and compassion, and that this may be a more major factor in their conversion than what a Church Father wrote. (Of course, their are others who do want to see our beliefs in the Scriptures & Fathers before they convert, I think it just depends on who your talking to.) I also think, however, that its important we explain and defend our religious beliefs (and I’m not saying you meant to downplay that altogether, or even a great deal).
Thank you for insights,
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