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carmenp1
Guest
Well said.
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clem456
Guest
Maybe you could go speak to your priest or religious ed director in your parish.
In any event, it is important that we be able to separate opinions on the internet from what the Church says.
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clem456
Guest
You distort the Church’s teaching.
That is a sad thing.
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carmenp1
Guest
No. I filter everything through the Word of God. There was no biblical reference noted to base whatever it was they were saying. If there is no scriptural base to give it validity, it should be treated as opinion or doctrine derived from non-scriptural sources.
If the information is so confusing that it must be explained, I won’t waste my time with it. This was so convoluted. To achieve what purpose?
God’s Word is my sounding board. It must agree with it. If it doesn’t, I toss it out! As everyone should.
Carmen
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grannymh
Guest
Shall we look at the complete concept of God’s will. ???
First. It should be observable that humans are not merely foreknowledge of an event.
Please notice the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1:26. The observed sky, earth, water, night, day are events that are basically static, fixed, stationary in their material capabilities. The living creatures, while they are mobile and need nourishment, depend on their material environment while living and at death they become another part of the material environment. Genesis 1: 26 obviously explains why the human creatures are different.
One of the major differences is that humans have a goal beyond the physical. This is demonstrated in Genesis 2: 15-17. As stated in Genesis 1: 26-27, humans have a spiritual principle. Our nature unites both the material world and the spiritual world. We are called to share, by knowledge and love, in the life of the Divine Creator. (*CCC *355-356) Our spiritual principle (intellective rational soul) includes the freedom of actions. (CCC 295; CCC 1730-72)
Please wait a few minutes before bashing free will. Thank you.
Being all powerful, the transcendent, super-natural, Pure Spirit without material restrictions, the Divine Creator, has complete freedom of His actions. In creating the unique human nature, God gave us the dignity of a person who can initiate and control our actions. (CCC 357; CCC 1730) I can see eyes light up. What about severely handicapped humans?
Quote from *CCC *1260
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”
We humans are smart, but God is smarter.
It should be plain common sense, that if all humans, regardless of human impediments, have the opportunity to share in the spiritual life of our Creator, then God must insure that all humans have that spiritual ability.
:doh2:
God made sure that every human absolutely has the capability of being in the image of God. He made sure that all humans could reach the eternal joy in heaven by having all humans descend from the first two humans who appeared on planet earth.
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you for this wonderful insight on Genesis 2: 19.
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grannymh
Guest
Shall we look at the complete concept of God’s will. ???
First. It should be observable that humans are not merely foreknowledge of an event.
Please notice the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1:26. The observed sky, earth, water, night, day are creation events that are basically static, fixed, stationary in their material capabilities. The living creatures, while they are mobile and need nourishment, depend on their material environment while living and at death, their physical/material anatomy becomes another part of the material environment. Genesis 1: 26 obviously explains why the human creatures are different from all other species.
One of the major differences is that humans have a goal beyond the physical. This is demonstrated in Genesis 2: 15-17. As stated in Genesis 1: 26-27, humans have a spiritual principle. Our nature unites both the material world and the spiritual world. We are called to share, by knowledge and love, in the life of the Divine Creator. (*CCC *355-356) Our spiritual principle (intellective rational soul) includes the freedom of actions. (CCC 295; CCC 1730-1732)
Being all powerful, the transcendent, super-natural, Pure Spirit without material restrictions, the Divine Creator, has complete freedom of His actions. In creating the unique human nature, God gave us the dignity of a person who can initiate and control our actions. (CCC 357; CCC 1730) I can see eyes light up. What about severely handicapped humans?
Quote from *CCC *1260
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”
We humans are smart, but God is smarter.
It should be plain common sense, that if all humans, regardless of human impediments, have the opportunity to share in the spiritual life of our Creator, then God must insure that all humans have that spiritual ability.
:doh2:
God made sure that every human absolutely is in the image of God. He made sure that all humans could reach the eternal joy in heaven by having all humans descend from the first two humans who appeared on planet earth.
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Gary_Sheldrake
Guest
From (name removed by moderator):
All the best,
Gary
Good Morning (name removed by moderator): If you were all knowing and all powerful and not subject to the random outcomes of procreation like humans are, then I would say that you create 5.
I how many people wake up in the morning just craving a good dose of hell.
All the best,
Gary
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clem456
Guest
Good post!
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truetofaith
Guest
That’s not how I interpret this passage…God, knowing the future, said, “I will make him a helper.” First, God brings all the animals He already made to have Adam name them & see if maybe Adam would settle for a puppy.
Then when none were acceptable God made the woman out of Adam’s rib. Simple.
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Contarini
Guest
Right. That’s a case of the translator helping out believers who might otherwise have a difficultyMy Bible says in Genesis 2:19 “Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field…” etc.
“Had formed” means to me …previously formed them in Genesis 1!
No problem here.
Hebrew tenses work differently from ours and cover a lot of ground, so the translation is probably grammatically possible (I am not enough of an expert in the fine shades of Hebrew to be sure how defensible it is). The two translations that I know of that feature it, the ESV and the NIV, were both done by committees of competent scholars. However, they also both reflect a conservative evangelical perspective Other modern translations (plus the KJV) do not have this reading. In other words, the only reason why scholars go for this reading is in order to deal with the difficulty. The Hebrew of 2:19 itself, without looking back at chap. 1, does not suggest the pluperfect but an account of what God did at the time being described: “So the Lord God formed.”
So yes, this is a possible solution, but writing it into the translation is a bit dubious. Better to have it in a footnote as an alternative possibility, at most.
Edwin
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simpleas
Guest
If God knew the out come of the human race, he already knew that it would take two fully complete humans, male and female to procreate the rest of mankind. Why would he bring the animals to Adam, then decide to create a mate from Adam. That doesn’t make sense.That’s not how I interpret this passage…God, knowing the future, said, “I will make him a helper.” First, God brings all the animals He already made to have Adam name them & see if maybe Adam would settle for a puppy.
Then when none were acceptable God made the woman out of Adam’s rib. Simple.
In Gen 1 God’s first command to his Two Humans is to be fruitful and multiply, did they not listen to this first command?
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davidv
Guest
Why not? These stories are for our benefit, not God’s. Can you see beyond the mere words to the understanding that the author is trying to convey? I believe the most fundamental meaning of this section is the show that among God’s creatures, humans are peerless.
You existence is proof that they did.In Gen 1 God’s first command to his Two Humans is to be fruitful and multiply, did they not listen to this first command?
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truetofaith
Guest
In Genesis 1, God gives an overview of man’s creation. He gives a detailed account in Genesis 2 .If God knew the out come of the human race, he already knew that it would take two fully complete humans, male and female to procreate the rest of mankind. Why would he bring the animals to Adam, then decide to create a mate from Adam. That doesn’t make sense.
In Gen 1 God’s first command to his Two Humans is to be fruitful and multiply, did they not listen to this first command?
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carmenp1
Guest
A puppy?? Have I missed the humour in your comment? Or are you serious?That’s not how I interpret this passage…God, knowing the future, said, “I will make him a helper.” First, God brings all the animals He already made to have Adam name them & see if maybe Adam would settle for a puppy.
Then when none were acceptable God made the woman out of Adam’s rib. Simple.
Carmen
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carmenp1
Guest
Genesis 1:29 "And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food, and it was so”
This passage is showing how different life on earth was prior to the fall. God says He has given all animal life every green herb for food, including Adam. This is important as it intensifies the contrast we see after the fall.
Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, YOU SHALL SURELY DIE”
This passage is very important to understand that when Adam sinned, something changed in Adam and Eve. God says to Adam “you shall surely die”. But we know Adam and Eve didn’t die, physically. So the death they died has to be a spiritual death.
We can find many scriptures that make reference to the rebirthing of that lost spiritual life through faith in Jesus Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross. The blood He shed paid for our sins so we can live. John 6:57 (Jesus says…“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me”
Luke 20:37 Jesus says: “But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
John 11:23 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. "
This particular scripture says that even if you die, you shall live! It says that when you die that physical death, yet you will be alive, spiritually. Remembering, that Adam died, spiritually, we inherit this physical life that is missing the spiritual life, as it says in:
Ephesians 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD IN TRESPASSES, made us ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (by grace you have been saved)”
A couple of points to note. Jesus quotes Moses. This being just one example. If the bible, and in particular the details God gives us of Adam and Eve’s pre fall condition and their after fall condition were not an accurate report, why would Jesus quote Old Testament passages?
I’ll take you back to Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him. “Where are you?” So he said “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself.” (God is in relationship with Adam. Adam, whilst in the garden, was able to be in God’s presence which was no longer possible after the fall). The conversation continues: And He said “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” From this dialogue we know that Adam enjoyed a relationship with God.
This relationship was broken by sin. We are born at enmity to God. It isn’t until we believe that Jesus’s blood paid for our sins, are we reconciled to God.
The account we have been given is very detailed and is crucial in making sense of the rest of the Bible message. Now if we look at Genesis 3:21 “Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them” This “tunic of skin” was made from an animal. This is the first reference to an animal being killed. It meant shedding of blood and the sacrifice of a living creature that God had created. We then see God establish the sacrifice of goats and bulls for the sins of Israel.
From this point on, the world has changed from animals and Adam eating herbs. The animal kingdom changed dramatically. The curse is on the earth, every creature as well as man.
Then look at Genesis 3:22 "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil
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carmenp1
Guest
Genesis 1:29 "And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food, and it was so”
This passage is showing how different life on earth was prior to the fall. God says He has given all animal life every green herb for food, including Adam. This is important as it intensifies the contrast we see after the fall.
Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, YOU SHALL SURELY DIE”
This passage is very important to understand that when Adam sinned, something changed in Adam and Eve. God says to Adam “you shall surely die”. But we know Adam and Eve didn’t die, physically. So the death they died has to be a spiritual death.
We can find many scriptures that make reference to the rebirthing of that lost spiritual life through faith in Jesus Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross. The blood He shed paid for our sins so we can live. John 6:57 (Jesus says…“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me”
Luke 20:37 Jesus says: “But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
John 11:23 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. "
This particular scripture says that even if you die, you shall live! It says that when you die that physical death, yet you will be alive, spiritually. Remembering, that Adam died, spiritually, we inherit this physical life that is missing the spiritual life, as it says in:
Ephesians 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD IN TRESPASSES, made us ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (by grace you have been saved)”
A couple of points to note. Jesus quotes Moses. This being just one example. If the bible, and in particular the details God gives us of Adam and Eve’s “pre fall” condition and their “after fall” condition, if it was not an accurate report, why would Jesus quote Old Testament passages?
I’ll take you back to Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him. “Where are you?” So he said “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself.” (God is in relationship with Adam. Adam, whilst in the garden, was able to be in God’s presence which was no longer possible after the fall). The conversation continues: And He said “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” From this dialogue we know that Adam enjoyed a relationship with God.
This relationship was broken by sin. We are born at enmity with God. It isn’t until we believe that Jesus’s blood paid for our sins, are we reconciled to God, and can have a relationship with God.
The account we have been given is very detailed and is crucial in making sense of the rest of the Bible message. Now if we look at Genesis 3:21 “Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them” This “tunic of skin” was made from an animal. This is the first reference to an animal being killed. It meant shedding of blood and the sacrifice of a living creature that God had created. From this point on, the animal kingdom has changed dramatically. The lamb and the lion no longer lye together but some animals and man have become carnivorous. As it is today. We then see God establish the sacrifice of goats and bulls for the sins of Israel.
Just these few passages from Genesis lays out the problem that the fall created and takes us to other passages in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Without Genesis being read as God intended, literally, we cannot make our way through the Bible and make sense of what we are reading. Every book of the Bible is relevant to the message of salvation which is the purpose the Bible fulfils to mankind. Every Book has a purpose God intends it to accomplish.
From Genesis, God leads us by the hand thru Exodus, the time of the Judges, Israel rejecting God and asking for a King, Daniel in captivity, on and on until we arrive at the most important part. Jesus’s birth, death and resurrection. God then takes us to the conclusion of His plan when He creates the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Carmen
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simpleas
Guest
No I can’t really, I always try to look at the text as a spiritual lesson, but don’t always see it.
My point was, telling people God knows all, therefore knew that in order for Adam to reproduce he would need a partner, he brings all the animals to Adam and then realises that none are suitable, just doesn’t sound like an all knowing God.
Yes I exist, maybe they did procreate at the first command in Gen 1. Not sure where that leaves original sin…
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simpleas
Guest
To me, Gen 1 gives an account that is very much in line with how science explains the world evolving, (the water, plants, animals came first etc and then the humans). God creates humans in his image, male and female and commands they be fruitful and multiply, no need to seek any other form of being for his peerless humans.
Gen 2, turns it all around, man comes first, then the animals for the man, so he is not lonely, but then animals aren’t compatable with Adam so God has to make a helper for Adam. God didn’t know that the animals would not be a perfect companion for Adam to create more little humans?
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truetofaith
Guest
Yes that was my little joke.
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