Do you believe in American Exceptionalism?

[Robert_Sock]

Join the club, ringil.

About now I am wondering what our discussion has to do with the subject of the thread.

Sorry, but Robert and I “tilt” with each other on many threads. We tend to go off on tangents.

I, for one, will try to keep on track…I can’t speak for Robert. (He starts it) :banghead:

Again apologies for the confusion and the waste of bandwith.

PS: I hope you accepted my explanation of what American Exceptionalism really is. (Posts # 22 and #33)

Did you ever hear of the phrase, “blaming the victim?”

LOVE!

 

[SleeepWarrior]

I do not believe in American Exceptionalism.

I do believe in the exceptional design of every individual person on Earth, and I do not mean everyone is special in the way that the cartoon movie “The Incredibles” portrays it: “when everyone is special, nobody is.” I mean every individual is Divinely engineered to be a unique and wonderful person with a purpose and mission that is his or hers alone. I believe that the Almighty Creator takes interest in each and every one even to the point of cherishing little ol’ me, or little ol’ you!

And therefor it makes no sense whatsoever that this personal and unlimited Father of ours would prefer one country-full of people over another. He is too delighted in knowing each and every one of us individually to care about such a human boundary as all that.

I do feel blessed to have been born a citizen of the US, and to have lived my entire life here. Here, I can go to daily Mass. Here, I can stand on the street corner if I choose and sing glory to my Heavenly Father if I wish. (I am going to have to go do that tomorrow, since I have never exercised that particular right!) Here, poverty exists but is less widespread and extreme than in many other places. Here, I am a woman and I vote and go to college. Here, I have four children and I can kiss my sons goodnight and tell them I love them and cherish my first-born daughter with no regret. Here, my parents will not be taken from me before God calls them home for, as of today, the laws protect them from euthanasia. There are many aspects of life in the United States which are exceptional, including how easy it is to find a program to support or join that goes out to share food, education, or medicine to less fortunate countries.

Oh, and I have noticed something exceptional about the Knights. They are generally strong disciples of Jesus living out their call to act on their faith in our world. They do good.

That is exceptional.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Greetings fellow “Silver Sword”

I was born in Budapest Hungry and moved to the U.S. in 1957 after my parents were killed by communists during the revolution. I was 12 years old.

12 years is all the extensive experience I gained living outside the U.S. as a civilian. I need no more.

I recently met a couple from Macedonia. They are actually ethnic Albanians, but during the communist era in eastern Europe, Albania was so horrific, it was less horrific to emigrate to Macedonia. But Macedonia, during communist years was also horrific, so the husband sneaked out of there at age 16. Lived in Switzerland for awhile until he could get a visa to come to America. Finally got it, got a green card and worked for ten years in getting his citizenship here. Washed dishes, cooked and waited tables in restaurants.

When he became eligible for citizenship, he was required to prove that he paid income taxes for two years. Instead, he brought his returns for all ten years. He insisted on answering (correctly) all of the questions instead of just those required on the test. Why? Because he was proud of America and its history and institutions and was proud to show that he contributed his taxes to it.

His family and hers arranged his marriage to a woman in Macedonia, and he sponsored her to come here, where they were married. Eventually, both obtained their citizenship. Then, saving their money, they managed to buy their own modest restaurant.

If you told either of them that America is not an “exceptional” country, you would do well to duck.

 

[migueltojose]

…therefore it makes no sense whatsoever that this personal and unlimited Father of ours would prefer one country-full of people over another. He is too delighted in knowing each and every one of us individually to care about such a human boundary as all that.

I see your point, but I think God can handle both each individual and the sum of our parts.

I agree that I doubt God prefers nations, I do think he prefers liberty and justice for all. Although each country has a patron Saint and Holy Mary has referenced individual countries in many of her apparitions. So I do believe there is some Heavenly recognition of our differentiations amongst our groupings of people whether they are geographic, genetic, ideological or otherwise. Check out Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalupe, not to mention Saint Faustina and Our Lady of America. Seems irrefutable unless you don’t believe in the Marian apparitions.

I think God favor’s holiness, righteousness and respect for His law. Of which, at the time, and hopefully still, there is no place better on earth to find it than here.

That doesn’t mean anything unless we continue to be holy, righteous and respectful. We can follow God where we find justice fighting injustice. Where we find right versus wrong. Where we find love versus hate. Where we find peace versus war. Where we find sacrifice and suffering versus narcissism and greed.

It requires courage and strength. Meek doesn’t mean weak.

 

[TEPO]

I recently met a couple from Macedonia. They are actually ethnic Albanians, but during the communist era in eastern Europe, Albania was so horrific, it was less horrific to emigrate to Macedonia. But Macedonia, during communist years was also horrific, so the husband sneaked out of there at age 16. Lived in Switzerland for awhile until he could get a visa to come to America. Finally got it, got a green card and worked for ten years in getting his citizenship here. Washed dishes, cooked and waited tables in restaurants.

When he became eligible for citizenship, he was required to prove that he paid income taxes for two years. Instead, he brought his returns for all ten years. He insisted on answering (correctly) all of the questions instead of just those required on the test. Why? Because he was proud of America and its history and institutions and was proud to show that he contributed his taxes to it.

His family and hers arranged his marriage to a woman in Macedonia, and he sponsored her to come here, where they were married. Eventually, both obtained their citizenship. Then, saving their money, they managed to buy their own modest restaurant.

If you told either of them that America is not an “exceptional” country, you would do well to duck.

How do you know so many people Ridgerunner? You know Macedonians too? . I’m really impressed. really I am.

 

[migueltojose]

I recently met a couple from Macedonia. They are actually ethnic Albanians, but during the communist era in eastern Europe, Albania was so horrific, it was less horrific to emigrate to Macedonia. But Macedonia, during communist years was also horrific, so the husband sneaked out of there at age 16. Lived in Switzerland for awhile until he could get a visa to come to America. Finally got it, got a green card and worked for ten years in getting his citizenship here. Washed dishes, cooked and waited tables in restaurants.

When he became eligible for citizenship, he was required to prove that he paid income taxes for two years. Instead, he brought his returns for all ten years. He insisted on answering (correctly) all of the questions instead of just those required on the test. Why? Because he was proud of America and its history and institutions and was proud to show that he contributed his taxes to it.

His family and hers arranged his marriage to a woman in Macedonia, and he sponsored her to come here, where they were married. Eventually, both obtained their citizenship. Then, saving their money, they managed to buy their own modest restaurant.

If you told either of them that America is not an “exceptional” country, you would do well to duck.

I have friends from Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia with similar amazing stories. But not only that, and that was mostly during the 60’s 70’s 80’s and 90’s, but Vietnam, South Korea, The Phillipines, and the whole Yugoslavian breakup, the Middle East, India, Pakistan, Latin America… on and on and on… how was life where they were? Why do you think they left? There are a lot of Bosnians in St. Louis and everyone I know loves them. They are hard working, family oriented, peaceful and loving… and fun…

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that things have changed a lot here since 1973 (?) but we remain a beacon of hope for the oppressed. It is up to us to keep it that way. We are not victims. We are not “them”. We are us. And we are the difference.

I’ve grown weary of people blaming the media ‘elite’ or the Church or the schools or the ‘evil’ corporations or politicians or whatever… all of those institutions are us. Make it better. Educate, evangelize, enlighten and pray unceasingly as though your life depended on it… because it does… (and your kids and their kids…) … We are the victims of our own success… disposable income and leisure time… idle hands (and minds) do the devils work…

OR - if the wave of secularism is irreversible, we must learn to live as a minority and fight that much harder. Souls are at stake… those of our families and friends…

 

[Ridgerunner]

How do you know so many people Ridgerunner? You know Macedonians too? . I’m really impressed. really I am.

I don’t know a tremendous number of people. But I travel quite a bit and do live in a part of the country where there appears to be a lot of attraction for people who are recent arrivals, at least on a small scale. The cost of living is low. The cost of real estate is low. Unemployment is low. There are almost no governmental impediments to starting a business. Virtually no unions to make things expensive. Around here, it’s more difficult to find a restaurant, for example, that is NOT operated by an immigrant, than to find one that is.

Though probably not exhaustive, some of the reasons are the ease of starting any kind of business, the major dependence of restaurant survival on diligent labor, and the fact that it is a vehicle for bringing in family members. Around here, it’s not hard to get an immigrant work permit for certain things, and family members will sponsor other family members. Once some family member gets here, works legally, pays taxes, he’s on his way to citizenship.

 

[TEPO]

As a native Midwesterner relocated to California, I do live in a very ethnically and culturally diverse area too. Here in Orange County, there is a growing Arabic/Muslim population that I’ve noticed… They seem to love to shop, because I always see them at the malls, or going on boat trips to Santa Catalina. I can only assume that they are well educated, since they tend to eat at the finer restaurants and wear extravagant clothing. My best guess (since not having conversed with them), is that they must work in the medical fields.

…In fact, after doing a quick internet search, there are about as many Arabic doctors as there are Asian ones here now. These two groups are the majority.

Not sure if they migrate before or after gaining an education though. I suppose a good study would be to do a consensus on the cultural and ethnic diversity of college students here in the States. Perhaps people are attracted to America for higher education?

I do know there are a lot of Asian college students from China as well. The Chinese buy property here and then use that property to house Chinese students, who tend to live together in groups as roommates.

 

[ephesians4]

I’m not American. I think however that it’s one of the finest countries around in many ways, and while it certainly has flaws, I’d certainly call it exceptional.

At the risk of inflating your collective head further than it need be.

 

[vera_dicere]

I’m not an American, and I most certainly do not accept the premise that God somehow favoured the crreation of one nation over another - and certainly not America or your consititution.

LIkewise, I don’t like the NZL national anthem, it has a line “God defend New Zealand”.

When I hear it, I think why? We kill our unborn, we have polluted the sancity of marriage, more and more people are claiming atheism and agnostic ideals, and now our politicans are making significant moves against the elderly and infirm.

Yes, there is good in NZL and I’m all for calling out for the defense of God, but we shoudl not expect or demand it when our nation behaves the way it does.

Same with America, with all the filth and muck and damage of sin upon your nation, I think its incredibly arrogant to think God has a special place in his heart for America, or any nation, regardless of religion.

God loves all people, he loves all sinners, and he desires all sinners repent and return to him. Politicans and our leaders are the same. Nations are simply collections of people who happened to be born or desired to move into a particular geographical location. God loves nations simply because they are collections of human beings.

I think one travels into dangerous terrority when they start claiming some kind of divnine authority over their nation, suddenly you can find justification for all kinds of mischeif.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not an American, and I most certainly do not accept the premise that God somehow favoured the crreation of one nation over another - and certainly not America or your consititution.

LIkewise, I don’t like the NZL national anthem, it has a line “God defend New Zealand”.

When I hear it, I think why? We kill our unborn, we have polluted the sancity of marriage, more and more people are claiming atheism and agnostic ideals, and now our politicans are making significant moves against the elderly and infirm.

Yes, there is good in NZL and I’m all for calling out for the defense of God, but we shoudl not expect or demand it when our nation behaves the way it does.

Same with America, with all the filth and muck and damage of sin upon your nation, I think its incredibly arrogant to think God has a special place in his heart for America, or any nation, regardless of religion.

God loves all people, he loves all sinners, and he desires all sinners repent and return to him. Politicans and our leaders are the same. Nations are simply collections of people who happened to be born or desired to move into a particular geographical location. God loves nations simply because they are collections of human beings.

I think one travels into dangerous terrority when they start claiming some kind of divnine authority over their nation, suddenly you can find justification for all kinds of mischeif.

When most people talk about American “exceptionalism”, they mean it in a secular way, not that God has somehow selected Americans as somehow unique like the Children of Israel in the Bible.

All the same, and knowing as I do that some truly obscene things are going on in the “Anglosphere”, I still think it’s a blessing from God, just as, well, watermelon is in July. Think about the world without Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It would be a lot worse world for it. And of those, America is the linchpin.

(Oops, sorry. I guess it would be “watermelon in December” for you and the Aussies, right?)

 

[CarmelJerome]

. We are not victims. We are not “them”. We are us. And we are the difference.

I’ve grown weary of people blaming the media ‘elite’ or the Church or the schools or the ‘evil’ corporations or politicians or whatever… all of those institutions are us. Make it better. Educate, evangelize, enlighten and pray unceasingly as though your life depended on it… because it does… (and your kids and their kids…) … We are the victims of our own success… disposable income and leisure time… idle hands (and minds) do the devils work…

OR - if the wave of secularism is irreversible, we must learn to live as a minority and fight that much harder. Souls are at stake… those of our families and friends…

In my short life of just over half a century, I've seen so many "irreversible" things reversed. The pontificate of shortly-to-be-Saint John Paul II is just one of those miracles that reversed seemingly irreversible things; and it wasn't just his pontificate, but the response of so many to the occasions that occurred within it that changed the whole field of possibilities.

I think of wearing a WWPFD band, because Francis is so good at reminding us to go outside the safe zones we’ve established for lobbing criticisms at people without taking the personal risks necessary for the encounter with Christ to take place – we need to encounter the Christ in others, the Forsaken Christ in them (as Chiara Lubich would put it) as much as the others need to encounter the gospel that we know.

 

[migueltojose]

In my short life of just over half a century, I’ve seen so many “irreversible” things reversed. The pontificate of shortly-to-be-Saint John Paul II is just one of those miracles that reversed seemingly irreversible things; and it wasn’t just his pontificate, but the response of so many to the occasions that occurred within it that changed the whole field of possibilities.

I think of wearing a WWPFD band, because Francis is so good at reminding us to go outside the safe zones we’ve established for lobbing criticisms at people without taking the personal risks necessary for the encounter with Christ to take place – we need to encounter the Christ in others, the Forsaken Christ in them (as Chiara Lubich would put it) as much as the others need to encounter the gospel that we know.

What happened in Poland was no coincidence… and the wall came down… how soon we forget miracles that occurred in front of our eyes, God really seems to favor Faith…

 

[TEPO]

When most people talk about American “exceptionalism”, they mean it in a secular way, not that God has somehow selected Americans as somehow unique like the Children of Israel in the Bible.

All the same, and knowing as I do that some truly obscene things are going on in the “Anglosphere”, I still think it’s a blessing from God, just as, well, watermelon is in July. Think about the world without Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It would be a lot worse world for it. And of those, America is the linchpin.

(Oops, sorry. I guess it would be “watermelon in December” for you and the Aussies, right?)

Speaking of the “anglosphere”, wasn’t South Africa once part of it? What happened there? Must not have been very exceptional I guess… But still, I wonder where the Anglo’s that used to live there went. New Zealand…?

 

[smichhertz]

It is practically impossible to believe in “American Exceptionalism” or any form of Nationalism without contradicting essential parts of Catholic Teaching.

It’s always interesting to see how bizarre this sort of stuff appears to Catholics from other nations.

Hi TRH1292,

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “American Exceptionalism” but I’ll give a few thoughts about patriotism:

I think St. Joan of Arc is a good example where God used her to prevent France from (essentially) ceasing to exist. God created us in different cultures and nations and I think He wants us to be proud of our countries and loyal to them.

But, obviously, second to our loyalty to God and His law. Thus, I’m a patriotic American. I’m proud of my country and I love her and her cause for freedom. However, that does not mean I agree with or support all of her laws, as I consider some of them contradictory to true freedom.

Hope that helps!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Speaking of the “anglosphere”, wasn’t South Africa once part of it? What happened there? Must not have been very exceptional I guess… But still, I wonder where the Anglo’s that used to live there went. New Zealand…?

I’m no expert on the subject of S.A., but it is my understanding that it wasn’t really quite part of the “Anglosphere”. The majority of whites were Afrikaans-speakers; a form of Dutch. The majority of blacks spoke Zulu or Xhosa. I think perhaps English is (and perhaps was) the “Lingua Franca” that many learned as a second language. But there was a lot about S.A. that really wasn’t “Anglo-Saxon” in terms of language, laws, customs, governance. And there still isn’t.

Not all white South Africans have left the country. But a lot have. I have met some who emigrated to the U.S. I understand some moved to Australia. Probably most who left went somewhere in the “Anglosphere” rather than to some other place. Whether any of them went to the Netherlands, I don’t know. I don’t know how close Afrikaans is to Dutch anymore.

 

[Vouthon]

I do not believe in American Exceptionalism. That said, I do believe that the Constitution and the establishment of this country was led by the hand of God. We’ve just messed it up - badly.

Apparently so did Pope Leo XIII:

“…We traverse in spirit and thought the wide expanse of ocean …] To this We apply Ourselves with the utmost zeal and care; because We highly esteem and love exceedingly the young and vigorous American nation, in which We plainly discern latent forces for the advancement alike of civilization and of Christianity …] For when America was, as yet, but a new-born babe, uttering in its cradle its first feeble cries, the Church took it to her bosom and motherly embrace …] Nor, perchance did the fact which We now recall take place without some design of divine Providence. Precisely at the epoch when the American colonies, having, with Catholic aid, achieved liberty and independence, coalesced into a constitutional Republic the ecclesiastical hierarchy was happily established amongst you; and at the very time when the popular suffrage placed the great Washington at the helm of the Republic, the first bishop was set by apostolic authority over the American Church. The well-known friendship and familiar intercourse which subsisted between these two men seems to be an evidence that the United States ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church…That your Republic is progressing and developing by giant strides is patent to all; and this holds good in religious matters also…Another consideration claims our earnest attention. All intelligent men are agreed, and We Ourselves have with pleasure intimated it above, that America seems destined for greater things. Now, it is Our wish that the Catholic Church should not only share in, but help to bring about, this prospective greatness. We deem it right and proper that she should, by availing herself of the opportunities daily presented to her, keep equal step with the Republic in the march of improvement, at the same time striving to the utmost, by her virtue and her institutions, to aid in the rapid growth of the States…”

***- POPE LEO XIII LONGINQUA (ENCYCLICAL ON CATHOLICISM IN THE UNITED STATES), 1895 ***

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m not an American, and I most certainly do not accept the premise that God somehow favoured the crreation of one nation over another - and certainly not America or your consititution.

LIkewise, I don’t like the NZL national anthem, it has a line “God defend New Zealand”.

When I hear it, I think why? We kill our unborn, we have polluted the sancity of marriage, more and more people are claiming atheism and agnostic ideals, and now our politicans are making significant moves against the elderly and infirm.

Yes, there is good in NZL and I’m all for calling out for the defense of God, but we shoudl not expect or demand it when our nation behaves the way it does.

Same with America, with all the filth and muck and damage of sin upon your nation, I think its incredibly arrogant to think God has a special place in his heart for America, or any nation, regardless of religion.

God loves all people, he loves all sinners, and he desires all sinners repent and return to him. Politicans and our leaders are the same. Nations are simply collections of people who happened to be born or desired to move into a particular geographical location. God loves nations simply because they are collections of human beings.

I think one travels into dangerous terrority when they start claiming some kind of divnine authority over their nation, suddenly you can find justification for all kinds of mischeif.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with New Zealand’s national anthem. I think it’s great. That is just my personal opinion.

However I am in agreement all nations are in need of God’s grace because they are all populated by sinners. We must never cease in praying for God’s mercy on the entire world.

I am an American and I do not believe in American exceptionalism.