Do you believe in gravity?

[Sideline]

You’re probably thinking at this point, “What an absurd question, of course I do. How could you not?” No one questions it. We have a word for people who don’t believe in gravity. The word is “insane”.

To me, the question, “Do you believe in Evolution?”, is just as strange as asking if I believe in gravity.

The funny thing is, our theories regarding evolution are better supported than our theories of gravity. In physics we have two theories (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity) that don’t match up. They can be approximated, of course, but they don’t fit seemlessly in with each other. There isn’t a big old hole like that in evolution.

Of course we don’t understand everything in evolution. We can’t predict new species, and we can’t watch a bacteria evolve all the way into a highly complex life form. But we understand how it works amazingly well.

Many of the people who claim evolution is wrong, believe in a limited (or super in some cases) form of evolution. The people who don’t believe it, still believe it. They can’t even try and refute it, without some sort of acceptance, unless they want to try and deny scientific enquiry all together.

Why are people so resistent to the idea that life evolved? It doesn’t violate Catholic teaching. It isn’t forbidden by the Church. To try and refute it logically you need to accept many of its principles. Why not just accept that it exists and move on?

 

[Tedster]

Why not just accept that it exists and move on?

Why don’t you accept our right to NOT believe a theory and just move on? That also does not violate Church teaching. Why is it so important for you evolutionists to make everyone believe what you do? Why do you have a hard time with us who believe a more traditional form of Creation?

 

[mahoneyt]

Believe it, I’ve even seen it.

 

[Sideline]

Why don’t you accept our right to NOT believe a theory and just move on? That also does not violate Church teaching. Why is it so important for you evolutionists to make everyone believe what you do? Why do you have a hard time with us who believe a more traditional form of Creation?

What would you say to a group of people that didn’t believe that the Earth was round? Would you just say that they don’t need to know? How about someone that thought that flashlights were magic?

Why educate people at all, come to think about it? As long as the bulk of people do what they are told, and don’t cause trouble, what’s the problem?

 

[Tedster]

What would you say to a group of people that didn’t believe that the Earth was round? Would you just say that they don’t need to know? How about someone that thought that flashlights were magic?

Why educate people at all, come to think about it? As long as the bulk of people do what they are told, and don’t cause trouble, what’s the problem?

I would tell them to look at the proof, of which evolutionists have none, just theories. But this topic has been argued so many times in this forum that it makes my head spin. Look up the MANY threads concerning evolution if you need to know how I feel, I will not spend time reiterating. But nice try!

 

[edwest2]

It is important for evolutionists to make everyone believe in the theory because it is complete in itself and it states, everything happened on its own. Again, the theory states that everything happened on its own. The point I bring up is that the Church does not allow a belief in a-theistic, non-God, evolution. At which point I’m quickly reminded that ‘science’ says nothing about God. I know that. But just like a car commercial that suggests you buy “this” car because chicks will dig it and you, evolutionary theory is immediately sold as a “it all happened by itself so there is no need for God.” Period. I hope the evolutionists here will finally admit that the great God Science is limited in its ability to describe reality. And that other factual information that comes from the Catholic Church needs to be added. By itself, evolutionary theory is incomplete.

This response is usually followed by “Yeah, we know. Why are you bringing it up again?” I’m bringing it up again because the “evolution is a fact” crowd are talking about textbook, no-God, it happened all by itself evolution, and not the evolution that involves God that the Church teaches. That’s a big, big difference from what a person can get from a textbook and what that same person can get from the Church.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Sideline]

I would tell them to look at the proof, of which evolutionists have none, just theories. But this topic has been argued so many times in this forum that it makes my head spin. Look up the MANY threads concerning evolution if you need to know how I feel, I will not spend time reiterating. But nice try!

Oh geez, you caught me. I really posted this just to get you to reiterate your position. Guess I’ll have to try again.

Or maybe I had a point of my own I felt like expressing.

I find it sad when people who haven’t studied something to give up on it without understanding it.

 

[Sideline]

It is important for evolutionists to make everyone believe in the theory because it is complete in itself and it states, everything happened on its own. Again, the theory states that everything happened on its own. The point I bring up is that the Church does not allow a belief in a-theistic, non-God, evolution. At which point I’m quickly reminded that ‘science’ says nothing about God. I know that. But just like a car commercial that suggests you buy “this” car because chicks will dig it and you, evolutionary theory is immediately sold as a “it all happened by itself so there is no need for God.” Period. I hope the evolutionists here will finally admit that the great God Science is limited in its ability to describe reality. And that other factual information that comes from the Catholic Church needs to be added. By itself, evolutionary theory is incomplete.

This response is usually followed by “Yeah, we know. Why are you bringing it up again?” I’m bringing it up again because the “evolution is a fact” crowd are talking about textbook, no-God, it happened all by itself evolution, and not the evolution that involves God that the Church teaches. That’s a big, big difference from what a person can get from a textbook and what that same person can get from the Church.

Stop saying what I think and believe!!!

You have no idea what goes on inside my head, I have never ascribe motivations to you and I would appreciate some of the same courtesy from you. If you can’t do it, stop following me around on the forums!

 

[Tedster]

Oh geez, you caught me. I really posted this just to get you to reiterate your position. Guess I’ll have to try again.

Sorry. I am not that arrogant to believe that. Especially since we have never met. I meant that if you are going to try to get into a debate like so many of the evolutionists do, I will not debate this again, and again, and again, and …

Or maybe I had a point of my own I felt like expressing.

I find it sad when people who haven’t studied something to give up on it without understanding it.

And what make you assume that I have not studied the theory? I find it sad that most evolutionists make that assumption, but then again why should I? I guess a theory is a lot like an assumption!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think that when I let something go, if there’s nothing else holding it up, God will move it down until it hits the ground.

Also God keeps the planets spinning in circles around the sun, as if there’s some “force” pulling them together.

 

[Tedster]

Stop saying what I think and believe!!!

You have no idea what goes on inside my head, I have never ascribe motivations to you and I would appreciate some of the same courtesy from you. If you can’t do it, stop following me around on the forums!

You could just put him into your ignore list if what he says bothers you! Or if he really says something wrong, report it to the administrators. But to tell you the truth, I had no idea he was talking about you. I thought he was talking about evolutionists in general.

 

[edwest2]

Thank you, Tedster. You are correct. I usually (though sometimes I forget) try to remember to put the person’s screen name in.

Thanks again,
Ed

 

[BlaineTog]

Why are people so resistent to the idea that life evolved? It doesn’t violate Catholic teaching. It isn’t forbidden by the Church. To try and refute it logically you need to accept many of its principles. Why not just accept that it exists and move on?

By and large, Catholics (at least, Catholics I know) don’t have a problem with evolution. Though those that do probably view it as an attempt to take away from God some of his majesty and mystery.

 

[CentralFLJames]

How about we get back to gravity rather than “evolve” this into yet another creationism vs evolution topic? I don’t think the two are related.

Do I believe in gravity?
I am not sure I like the way this is phrased - I don’t put “faith” in gravity or listen to everything it tells me (I fall down often though).

But do I think there is a unique gravitational force?
I think so. Its either a real fundamental force that is a consequence of being or it is a manifestation of force caused by the interaction or relationship of entities that is formed by the proximity of one to the other as well as one to itself.

I intuitively “think” there is a relationship of gravity to time as well.

Gravity among other things also defines direction (as in up or down) and a gradient by which to pull and climb up against or to fall “down” toward.

James

 

[mommyof4]

Yes, I believe in gravity. To prove it, I just have to stand in front of a mirror without any clothes on.

 

[timotheos]

Re: Do you believe in gravity?

Sure. But just cause there’s a word describing it doesn’t mean I understand it. Same thing with evolution. It doesn’t explain a lot of things, not the least of which is human intelligence, given the fact that math and science geeks have a hard time getting dates.

-Tim

 

[Other_Eric]

It is misleading to compare gravity to evolution. Gravity being a law that is backed up by voluminous mathematical equations that can accurately predict observed astronomical phenomena. Evolution has no such mathematical foundation, cannot be used to predict observed biological phenomena, cannot be disproved in the laboratory and does, in fact, need to be readjusted to conform to things we have observed.

That said, the dichotomy as is typically posed between evolution and creationism is a false one. Evolution is no more inherently atheistic than are the laws of thermodynamics. God is noticeably absent in both ideas, each more or less being explained as “occurring on their own.” This is not to say that a Richard Dawkins or a Christopher Hitchens might not use evolution in service to some other agendas he may have. Such arguments say more about the people making them then they do about evolutionary theory.

Evolution simply happens to be the best scientific guess about the development of life based on the data we have. I am comfortable with both it and the first few chapters of Genesis. As far as the manner in which God accomplished the creation, I turn to this story from Sacred Scripture about God who questioned Job thusly:

Gird up your loins now, like a man; I will question you, and you tell me the answers! Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its size; do you know? Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, while the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (1)

Job pleads ignorance before the Lord. (2) He does not presume to teach God Scripture. I, therefore, do the same.

(1) New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Job 38:3-7. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job38.htm

(2) Ibid. Job 40:4-5. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job40.htm

 

[brycelaliberte]

Evolutionism vs. Creationism seems to be one of the most misunderstood predicaments of our time.

It is entirely possible to believe the basic tenets of evolution, THAT IS, that all living things will have variations, and it is more likely that those with the more beneficial variations will be more likely to produce, and so those variations will become more populous, so that the species would be benefited by the slight variations help keep the members of a species alive.

It is also possible to believe the basic tenets of creation, THAT IS, (why am I capitalizing?) that all matter, physics, and time were created by some sort of intelligent being/s.

They aren’t necessarily contradictory.

What seems to have happened is that there is a connotation with saying “I believe in evolution” and also “I believe in creation.” How many countless times I have had to explain to my Christian friends that I believe that species will have beneficial variants after saying “I believe in evolution.” About the same thing for “I believe in creation” so I am not mistaken to any group.

Why is that people have decided that believing in evolution means you can’t believe in creation, and that believing in creation also means you can’t believe in evolution? The two are not opposing ideas, unless you take an extreme position on either. Evolution doesn’t explain how life began (faith in physically impossible things could) or how the universe came about. It pertains to biology only, and nothing else.

There needs to be understanding on both sides of what really is, or could be, true.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Evolutionism vs. Creationism seems to be one of the most misunderstood predicaments of our time.

It is entirely possible to believe the basic tenets of evolution, THAT IS, that all living things will have variations, and it is more likely that those with the more beneficial variations will be more likely to produce, and so those variations will become more populous, so that the species would be benefited by the slight variations help keep the members of a species alive.

It is also possible to believe the basic tenets of creation, THAT IS, (why am I capitalizing?) that all matter, physics, and time were created by some sort of intelligent being/s.

They aren’t necessarily contradictory.

What seems to have happened is that there is a connotation with saying “I believe in evolution” and also “I believe in creation.” How many countless times I have had to explain to my Christian friends that I believe that species will have beneficial variants after saying “I believe in evolution.” About the same thing for “I believe in creation” so I am not mistaken to any group.

Why is that people have decided that believing in evolution means you can’t believe in creation, and that believing in creation also means you can’t believe in evolution? The two are not opposing ideas, unless you take an extreme position on either. Evolution doesn’t explain how life began (faith in physically impossible things could) or how the universe came about. It pertains to biology only, and nothing else.

There needs to be understanding on both sides of what really is, or could be, true.

Agree. I see absolutely no conflict between the concept of creation and evolution. It is of no consequence to my faith or intellect if God created man in an instant or a day or a million years through the mechanism of “being” or through evolution. The core concept common to both is “God’s Will.” Evolution could not happen spontaneously without God having put in place natural rules and set in motion a complex set of events that operated constructively and cooperatively to make a human.

This is an old and tired concept that has been talked to death for many decades. The Church is OK with an evolution conceptualization that is consistent with creation.

I want to get to the deep stuff. Like what was God thinking when he decided to put nipples on males if men were created before females? Seems like we could have traded that in for more brains?

James

 

[edwest2]

You’re probably thinking at this point, “What an absurd question, of course I do. How could you not?” No one questions it. We have a word for people who don’t believe in gravity. The word is “insane”.

To me, the question, “Do you believe in Evolution?”, is just as strange as asking if I believe in gravity.

The funny thing is, our theories regarding evolution are better supported than our theories of gravity. In physics we have two theories (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity) that don’t match up. They can be approximated, of course, but they don’t fit seemlessly in with each other. There isn’t a big old hole like that in evolution.

Of course we don’t understand everything in evolution. We can’t predict new species, and we can’t watch a bacteria evolve all the way into a highly complex life form. But we understand how it works amazingly well.

Many of the people who claim evolution is wrong, believe in a limited (or super in some cases) form of evolution. The people who don’t believe it, still believe it. They can’t even try and refute it, without some sort of acceptance, unless they want to try and deny scientific enquiry all together.

Why are people so resistent to the idea that life evolved? It doesn’t violate Catholic teaching. It isn’t forbidden by the Church. To try and refute it logically you need to accept many of its principles. Why not just accept that it exists and move on?

Why not just say “yes to evolution” and move on? Would you kindly consider allowing us who have significant doubts about evolution alone? What we believe is not forbidden by the Church either. Even Cardinal Schoenborn stated that common descent “might” be true. And the church has not infallibly ruled on the age of the earth.

God bless,
Ed