Do you believe in the powers of the spirit

[moorefamily7]

i have for a long time now believed the church has lacked a certain something from the celebration of the mass. I have been to a couple of evangelical services and found them to be quite warming but they lack the power of the mass itself. does anyone else think that our services should expand its view on the allowing the flow of the spirit to pour forth as such or do you think that the mass should remain as it is. I take this thought from a dream that i had from god on the giving of the spirit to man.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

The Holy Ghost is not found in the wind, nor the earthquake, nor in the fire, but in the still small voice. (1 Kings 19:11-13)

The Mass lacks nothing.

 

[thistle]

The Holy Ghost is not found in the wind, nor the earthquake, nor in the fire, but in the still small voice. (1 Kings 19:11-13)

The Mass lacks nothing.

I totally agree.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Thanks, Thistle. I had other uncharitable words about convulsions and glossolalia, but I don’t want to offend or get booted off. So, I left it at that.

 

[kyria]

Yes I believe in the powers of the Spirit. As a charismatic I do enjoy the more charismatic type masses, but they aren’t everybodies cup of tea. However I found as I got the spirit flowing more in myself, through prayer to the Holy Spirit and other prayers, through going to regular confession and regular mass and partaking of the Eucharist, I found the mass sort of came to me in my heart more.

So basically as I got the Spirit happening in myself much more, I found the mass just fine whatever way it is celebrated.

 

[Yours_Truly]

i have for a long time now believed the church has lacked a certain something from the celebration of the mass. I have been to a couple of evangelical services and found them to be quite warming but they lack the power of the mass itself. does anyone else think that our services should expand its view on the allowing the flow of the spirit to pour forth as such or do you think that the mass should remain as it is. I take this thought from a dream that i had from god on the giving of the spirit to man.

Be sure not to confuse the power of the Spirit with emotionalist, or pep-rally enthusiasm, as so many do. The power of the spirit is expressed in calm but strong virtue, not in foolish and immature emotionalism.

A lot of Protestants think that if they get very excited and enthusiastic it is evidence of the Holy Ghost. If that were so, it would prove that the Holy Ghost was also present at pep-rallys and rock concerts since they produce the exact same thing.

 

[kyria]

Be sure not to confuse the power of the Spirit with emotionalist, or pep-rally enthusiasm, as so many do. The power of the spirit is expressed in calm but strong virtue, not in foolish and immature emotionalism.

A lot of Protestants think that if they get very excited and enthusiastic it is evidence of the Holy Ghost. If that were so, it would prove that the Holy Ghost was also present at pep-rallys and rock concerts since they produce the exact same thing.

The spirit is also expressed in joy.

 

[redrosetea]

I went to a charismatic mass and was very unimpressed…They seem to think waving their arms in the air is important…I can’t for the life of me understand why?

It was also annoying to me…When we were praying the woman behind me was so loud I couldn’t concentrate…I would never go to another one…I dislike theatrics a great deal

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Yes I believe in the powers of the Spirit. As a charismatic I do enjoy the more charismatic type masses, but they aren’t everybodies cup of tea. However I found as I got the spirit flowing more in myself, through prayer to the Holy Spirit and other prayers, through going to regular confession and regular mass and partaking of the Eucharist, I found the mass sort of came to me in my heart more.

So basically as I got the Spirit happening in myself much more, I found the mass just fine whatever way it is celebrated.

I gained so much more out of the Mass once I really learned what was happening during the consecration. I make my best effort to pay attention to make certain I do not miss anything. There is so much going on that if anything were ever to be made visible to me I do not want to be daydreaming about breakfast or whatever.

Eddie Mac

 

[IrishDude45]

Do you know exactly what the Mass is? What occurs during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? I agree with the fact that it lacks nothing. I’m no charismatic, I’m not going to get into that type of thing beyond what already exists in the sacraments. Nothing more needs to be added to them, to say otherwise is getting on dangerous ground.

pax

 

[kyria]

I went to a charismatic mass and was very unimpressed…They seem to think waving their arms in the air is important…I can’t for the life of me understand why?

It was also annoying to me…When we were praying the woman behind me was so loud I couldn’t concentrate…I would never go to another one…I dislike theatrics a great deal

Maybe it is important to some. Some people express the feeling of love and joy in different ways. Some do so with hands upwards, some hold hands, some kiss and hug each other, some stand still, some prefer to sit quietly. Some like the quiet, some like the praise. I like both. I am univeral in my approach and get much out of various types of mass. At times I prefer to solemn quiet and gregorian chant style and other times I like the more upbeat praise method.

We are each individuals, we each have our own tastes. Hence I would never sling off at any type of mass or way any individual in the Church celebrates it.

The Holy Spirit is many aspects, above all I have found Him to be Love. And that love manifests itself in various ways. Sometimes it is in joy and I dance around a bit as I am doing my dishes. Sometimes it is in absolute love and I want to touch others and express that love to them. Other times it is more quiet when I am sitting still and meditating on God.

I love the variety we have, I love the fact that our members get to attend types of mass’s that suit them. Some like the Traditional approach, others like the Charismatic approach, etc.

What is theatrics to you might simply be some individuals expression of love and praise.

And I don’t think people talk via the spirit when they are putting down others, and when they are putting down other’s methods of worship and praise to God. If something isn’t someone’s cup of tea, all you have to do is find your cup of tea, but I love the fact that some have found their personal preference and I love it when others respect that. That respect shows to me when others are speaking via the spirit.

 

[r4j]

I’m an Eddie Mac and a Kyria -
When I increased my study of the faith and my prayer and the frequency of receiving the sacraments - the Mass started coming alive. I was in the camp of so many - Mass is boring, I wish we had a more charismatic preacher, I wish we had different hymns.
I have come to discover the beauty and the gift that the Mass is.
I agree with Kyria too, as long as the Mass is valid in form and substance, people enjoying different ways of worshipping. I have heard that Catholic Masses in other parts of the world are quite different from what we experience and that’s because the Church says it should be conducted according to the culture of the region.

 

[mhpierce]

Would anyone care to answer these questions?

Passion Sunday, 3/29/09

I have some very important questions for you. Please indulge me. they will undoubtedly start a running “dialogue” (I do not like to use that word, but I do nopt debate anymore unless there are rules…), as they have on this web site, but is that not the purpose behind sharing facts about our faith, some of which to many “Catholics” seem to be unaware?

Nevertheless:

Allow me to introduce myself. I am an Orthodox Catholic who assists at Mass, here in Rochester, at the Chapel of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, run by the Franciscan Friars, (OFM).

Bishop Louis Vezelis (OFM) and Bishop Giles Butler (OFM) are the bishops who run the Friary here and the Friary of Saint Anthony of Padua in Waterloo, NY.

I was recently posting on the Athesist thread and a person who called himself Phantasm was finally banned for the thread.

I speculated in a post as to why; I was having a running “controversy” with “The Phantom,” as I called him, on apostolic authority, but it was not a debate, as he termed it–it was a listing, on my part of facts–facts he chose to ignore; but in his exegesis he denigarted both of the above mentioned bishops, whose apostolic authority can be traced all the way back to the beginning of the Franciscan order. How do I contact the moderators via a PM to find out why he was banned? I am deeply curious as to their decision, for reasons of Salvation… this Phantasm person was once a Catholic but not considers himself an ahteist…

I will be joining the Third Order of Saint Francis soon. All of that said I have two other questions concerning why people attend the Novus Ordo Missae and what they call the Tridentine Mass. I must tell you I am 57 years old and The Holy Sacrifice is the Mass is the real Mass with which I was raised. I was an altar boy, and I now serve Bishop Giles’ Mass during the week…

Why do you use the term Tridentine, when the Mass has always been the Mass, and that is what we, as Catholics must attend, since The Council of Trent placed it and its rubrics in perpetuity and Pope Saint Pius fthe fFfth stated that no changes could ever be enacted to alter this Mass, in a documnet titled, Novus Primun. He published the definitive Brivery and Missal and ordered that they be printed and use universally, in the Latin portion of the Catholic church, the Eastern rite of course being different.

That word, Tridentine, is used to distinguish it from the Vatican II, Paul VI Mass, which is not and cannot be considered a Mass, due to the anathemas against it or any other “Mass” promulgated or altered, (or what have you) after The Council of Trent. The point is, there is only The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass–the one at which we assist at the above mentioned Chapel. The word Triditine is superfluous then, is it not, as there is only one Mass of all time. It need not de distinguished, should it?

Are we to obey the last four “Popes” who pray the Novus Ordo? I cannot as many others with whom I worship the One True God.

Would you kindly explain the contradictions here, from your understanding of this problem. It is very serious, and I could state many situations concerning what has transpired since April 2, 1969, when this Novus Ordo Missae was required of Catholics then.

Why do Catholics need an indult to go to Mass, since the real Mass needs no approval from a Pope, ever, since it is the one we are obliged, as Catholics, to attend? The indult concerning The Mass is unnecessary, Catholics do not need any permission from anyone, ever, I was taught, to assist at The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass…

Could you kindly answer there quandries, including the monitor question, if you or others will indulge me?

The problem, though, as I see it, is the over use of the word “Traditional” and we are all, as Catholics, obliged to climg to traditions, doctrines and dogmas… Many people, and not just Baptized Catholics, here on this web and elsewhere, seem very confused when this word Traditional,is tossed around the way it has been since the closed of Vatican II.

It seems to stand for many different truths, different and opposing facts, and that makes no sense.

I remain faithfully yours, in Christ Jesus
mhpierce

 

[redrosetea]

Maybe it is important to some. Some people express the feeling of love and joy in different ways. Some do so with hands upwards, some hold hands, some kiss and hug each other, some stand still, some prefer to sit quietly. Some like the quiet, some like the praise. I like both. I am univeral in my approach and get much out of various types of mass. At times I prefer to solemn quiet and gregorian chant style and other times I like the more upbeat praise method.

We are each individuals, we each have our own tastes. Hence I would never sling off at any type of mass or way any individual in the Church celebrates it.

The Holy Spirit is many aspects, above all I have found Him to be Love. And that love manifests itself in various ways. Sometimes it is in joy and I dance around a bit as I am doing my dishes. Sometimes it is in absolute love and I want to touch others and express that love to them. Other times it is more quiet when I am sitting still and meditating on God.

I love the variety we have, I love the fact that our members get to attend types of mass’s that suit them. Some like the Traditional approach, others like the Charismatic approach, etc.

What is theatrics to you might simply be some individuals expression of love and praise.

And I don’t think people talk via the spirit when they are putting down others, and when they are putting down other’s methods of worship and praise to God. If something isn’t someone’s cup of tea, all you have to do is find your cup of tea, but I love the fact that some have found their personal preference and I love it when others respect that. That respect shows to me when others are speaking via the spirit.

It’s a pity we aren’t able to say what we dislike without being accused of putting down others…That seems to me to be a big put tdown

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thanks, Thistle. I had other uncharitable words about convulsions and glossolalia, but I don’t want to offend or get booted off. So, I left it at that.

The current Pope and the previous two supported the CCR movement and only advised for discernment. I know the gifts of the Spirit and know that we receive them at Baptism.

Personally I think we should all adhere to the Chair of Peter and what we are advised and if we do this then we will be shepharded by one of Jesus’ own.

 

[rwoehmke]

Be sure not to confuse the power of the Spirit with emotionalist, or pep-rally enthusiasm, as so many do.
A lot of Protestants think that if they get very excited and enthusiastic it is evidence of the Holy Ghost. If that were so, it would prove that the Holy Ghost was also present at pep-rallys and rock concerts since they produce the exact same thing.

So when eventually the "high"of the Spirit wears off or just doesn’t happen at anytime or anymore, would that mean that the Holy Spirit was not active in the Mass? As a Catholic Charismatic, I can say that when appropriate there is a lot of comfort in the spiritual high, but when the Spirit is working most effectively, sometimes he is very quiet. Being able to predict what comes next at Mass and act appropriately can be very helpful to the prayer of those attending. When things get too unpredictable, real participation becomes difficult and unity ( communion, Eucharist) of the participants takes a body blow.

 

[kyria]

It’s a pity we aren’t able to say what we dislike without being accused of putting down others…That seems to me to be a big put tdown

I called it as I saw it. You can say whatever you like and don’t like, but if it comes across with a hidden agenda of inferences then others are free to pick you up. To me your post appeared to attempt to insinuate that charimatic masses are about people waving their hands around without a valid reason, and theatrics, because you went to one and thus you believe that were to be the case.

 

[redrosetea]

Hidden Agenda? Boy are you ever reaching…I don’t care what mass anyone attends as long as it is not an abuse of of the liturgy…

 

[kyria]

Hidden Agenda? Boy are you ever reaching…I don’t care what mass anyone attends as long as it is not an abuse of of the liturgy…

Are you implying that a charismatic mass is an abuse of the Liturgy? The current Pope and two Popes before him have sanctioned the Charismatic Movement and that includes their mass. It is a full mass. Just might have individuals who prefer to express themselves more in the Spirit. The spirit likes praise, the spirit is love, the spirit is also joy. What is wrong with that? Does it make it an abuse because it is a bit different to how some worship? Does it make it an abuse if someone prays in tongues? Does it make it an abuse if someone sings more loudly or raise their hands up in praise, and holds someone’s hand? Does expression of praise, joy and love make a mass an abuse?

If abuses were going on to the degree that some individuals like to make out they are, then don’t you think the Pope would have disallowed charismatic mass’s?

Sure there are some individuals who might be up there in the initial phase of joy and zeal, and there are naturally some that are a bit looney. But lets face it, if I were to check out the congregation at my Church, which isn’t charismatic, then I’d find some people there who also aren’t operating from the light in some or many aspects and some who might appear a bit looney.

You don’t like the charismatic mass. Absolutely fine. I am not too keen on the Traditional mass. However there is a difference to stating you don’t like something and what aspects you don’t like, to using those aspects and twisting them in a way that puts a slur on people and/or a movement or type of mass.

I see many here who attempt to state what they believe to be an abuse of the Liturgy. Half the time they themselves can’t even agree what an abuse is. I’ve gotten to the stage there are an aweful lot of wannabe experts, but very few who actually are. And seeing as the Pope is the one in charge, if anyone is going to be an expert on the Liturgy or what an abuse is, it is Pope Benedict XVI And hence I am sticking with him. He has sanctioned the charismatic mass. As I said there are some in the movement who give it a bad name, but there are an aweful lot of Catholics out there who give the Catholic Faith a bad name and other movements a bad name. It does not however mean that I see a few who operate outside of the Faith as being indicative of a broader group.

And the fact that you stated you went to one charismatic mass, in no way shape or form makes you anyway or any near being an expert on the charismatic mass. You are one person who went to one mass, saw somethings you didn’t like, and appear by your post to have generalised that and inferred the charismatics don’t know what they are doing, and are simply putting on a show. Now I am wondering by this latest post if you also aren’t inferring that the charismatic mass is an abuse of the Liturgy, or are you simply inferring that you saw a few people at this mass you attended that you think were acting out in abuse? Because I can handle that. I see that all the time when contracepting Catholics go up and partake of the Eucharist. Some believe it to be an abuse when a mass use’s EME’s. I’ve been to a charismatic mass where one woman interupted with words she felt God wanted others to hear. I didn’t agree with what she did, but at the same time I didn’t generalise it to the whole congregation.

 

[redrosetea]

I am not implying anything…I don’t like Charismatic services and told why…From there you have spun all kinds of tales

I will not be conversing with you again