Do you believe that the SSPX will eventually become officially canonically recognized?

[Boy_Wonder]

corruptio optimi pessima

Huh?

 

[commenter]

It’s up to the SSPX. The Holy See has graciously extended itself to meet SSPX’s demands, but SSPX continues its proud and obstinate refusal to bend.

Meanwhile plenty of new and FAITHFUL traditionalist groups and associations are forming with Rome’s blessing. These newly formed groups are the future of the traditionalist movement. SSPX has arrived at a fork in the road. Either it retracts its obstinate pride and returns to the fold or it can continue to isolate and eventually fade into obscurity and extinction, only to become a footnote in Church history. Nothing more.

It’s a shame that some of the most ardent and devout Catholics succumb to the SSPX siren song or the even whackier sedvacantists. But this is how the enemy attacks the faithful. The enemy cannot tempt ardent and devout Catholics with his usual fare of carnal excess or trendy lefty theological dissent; instead, the enemy cloaks temptations to grievous sins in the garb of extreme and “authentic” piety. It’s insidious. It must be refuted.

“The corruption of the best is the worst tragedy”, translated from Latin phrase, how I would sum up and agree with your last paragraph. I agree with your whole post.

The SSPX has reached many “forks in the road” but they keep postponing the fork. The leaders will probably never say “we urge our priests and people to join their local diocese and parishes, trust in God and the Church, we don’t care what happens to our organizational structure”. But they also won’t stop insisting they are Catholic right now. So they postpone the fork, they say it will all be clearer in 6 months, keep the negotiations going, some positive developments we can’t share right now, but be patient…

The struggle isn’t over the TLM, or Vatican II, or the upcoming Synod, or other issues: it is about the organizational independence of the SSPX. The leaders won’t give that up. Sadly, young families are being kept on hold, you might say a series of one-year extensions, during which time their children have grown up, essentially a generation of distrust in the Catholic Church.

 

[jmr_1985]

Eventually, they will have to either come back or face another crisis when their two remaining bishops are near death, which is what prompted the initial ordination that caused the excommunications. Without bishops, they cannot ordain their priests.

It has been suggested that perhaps reconciliation could start with the bottom instead of the top. Perhaps the local bishop could grant faculties to their local priests, if the local group was less radical. They apparently recognize during Mass the names of the Pope and the local bishop. I also think summorum pontificum, if implemented worldwide, will help to ease them back.

If you don’t think reconciliation is possible, watch the video I linked below that EWTN did on a recent SSPX trip to Rome. We should all pray that the SSPX returns to Holy Mother Church. After all, it is Christ’s will that we all be one.

youtu.be/RHi5OcldIvc

 

[kozlosap]

IMHO the SSPX has waited too long to conform. Papa Francis does not seem overly interested in playing their power struggle game. He has all the power and ear of the Holy Spirit - they do not.

 

[commenter]

It has been suggested that perhaps reconciliation could start with the bottom instead of the top. Perhaps the local bishop could grant faculties to their local priests, if the local group was less radical. They apparently recognize during Mass the names of the Pope and the local bishop. I also think summorum pontificum, if implemented worldwide, will help to ease them back.

Some people have already started at “the bottom”. Some families who formerly were attached to SSPX have now come full time into the Church itself. Some individual priests, too.

If the SSPX priests in a given area wanted faculties, they would of course need to make a promise of obedience to the bishop and his successors. The Church does not recognize the SSPX as a religious order, so it wouldn’t recognize any continuing commitment by the newly certified clergy to the bishops and officers in SSPX, other than friendship. The diocese would likely allow them to continue on in their present ministries, pastoral or educational, and say the TLM exclusively. But then SSPX district superintendent, etc, would in effect give up the primary role in guiding chapels and maybe schools to the bishop, and whoever his successor would be. Would they be willing to do that?

It seems like priests in SSPX would have more autonomy from the bishop, more freedom of action, if they joined FSSP, a recognized religious community, rather than simply going the route of becoming diocesan clergy - which is what they would be.

 

[Mayita30]

No… If they wanted to reconcile then they would have already joined the FSSP , which is canonically authorized by the Catholic Church.

 

[ProVobis]

The struggle isn’t over the TLM, or Vatican II, or the upcoming Synod, or other issues: it is about the organizational independence of the SSPX. The leaders won’t give that up.

That pretty much. Also because of their benefactors, I would imagine. No doubt they have accumulated many in the 40 years after the AB got suspended.

 

[commenter]

Originally Posted by commenter View Post
The struggle isn’t over the TLM, or Vatican II, or the upcoming Synod, or other issues: it is about the organizational independence of the SSPX. The leaders won’t give that up.

That pretty much. Also because of their benefactors, I would imagine. No doubt they have accumulated many in the 40 years after the AB got suspended.

Even if the Vatican granted everything the SSPX is asking for; even if they suspended certain portions of Vatican II documents, even if they mandated every seminary had to include training in the EF, even if they mandated at least 1 EF Mass a week in every parish over 500 families, even if it was ruled that all new bishops promoted must have a track record of allowing the EF Mass in their prior jobs, and all newly chosen bishops must have offered it themselves sometimes…

Even if the Vatican offered all that, in writing, but required that the SSPX disband as an organization…the SSPX would refuse the offer, but say they want to continue negotiations on into 2016. And 2017…

 

[thistle]

The SSPX almost came into an agreement with Rome in 2012. I’m not too sure if negotiations are still going on between the Society and Rome. Do you believe that the SSPX will eventually become officially canonically recognized?

If they repent and submit to Rome.

 

[ProVobis]

Even if the Vatican granted everything the SSPX is asking for; even if they suspended certain portions of Vatican II documents, even if they mandated every seminary had to include training in the EF, even if they mandated at least 1 EF Mass a week in every parish over 500 families, even if it was ruled that all new bishops promoted must have a track record of allowing the EF Mass in their prior jobs, and all newly chosen bishops must have offered it themselves sometimes…

Well, they got IMO a pretty good offer in 1988 and reportedly the AB signed it. (This protocol even allowed consecration of one bishop.) But the AB reneged on the offer and decided he needed more bishops.

 

[BartholomewB]

I have no inside knowledge at all of what’s going on, but just from reading the Catholic press from time to time, and looking at Catholic websites such as this one, two things seem clear enough:

1. Pope Benedict was keener on reconciliation than the Lefebvrists themselves were.
2. As Gregitalian has pointed out above (#3 on this thread), we can be sure that, even if the SSPX leadership were to reach an agreement with Rome, an irredentist or rejectionist splinter group would split away. If it’s the Resistance now, at some future date the Resistance leadership might start getting into bed with Rome, and then an anti-Resistance splinter group would break away, and so on ad infinitum.

So the answer is No, there will never be full reconciliation. With some, even perhaps a majority, of the priests who are now in the SSPX, possibly, but never with the whole lot.

 

[kozlosap]

If they repent and submit to Rome.

Short, sweet, and so TRUE!

 

[Denise1957]

The Church does not recognize the SSPX as a religious order, so it wouldn’t recognize any continuing commitment by the newly certified clergy to the bishops and officers in SSPX, other than friendship. The diocese would likely allow them to continue on in their present ministries, pastoral or educational, and say the TLM exclusively. But then SSPX district superintendent, etc, would in effect give up the primary role in guiding chapels and maybe schools to the bishop, and whoever his successor would be. Would they be willing to do that?

Regarding the Church not recognizing the SSPX as a religious order, well, it never was an order, properly speaking. It is an priestly fraternity, or association of priests. I’m pretty sure that it is recognized as such by Rome, even though they are in an irregular status.

I think that if the SSPX were to reconcile in the future, it would have a certain amount of autonomy; hence they would probably have an ordinariate or personal parish. It’s unlikely that they would agree to anything less. I’m just trying to look at it from the SSPX point of view (there are things which the SSPX supports which I strongly disagree with).

Those Catholics who don’t want them to have any control over their chapels will be hoping in vain, since they aren’t likely to allow their chapels to be controlled by anyone who is possibly against the TLM or traditional way of life. But if I recall correctly, during the recent negotiations, they were offered a personal parish or ordinariate situation, which would have been directly under the Pope, as far as jurisdiction goes. I think that they would likely be offered the same in any future negotiations.

 

[rfournier103]

I believe that the SSPX will indeed be reconciled with the larger Church - eventually.

As the Church shrinks and the ‘fair-weather’ desciples drift away from the Church and organized religion altogether; what remains will be a more conservative Church with a more conservative laity and clergy - thus paving the way for more middle-ground to be found.

The SSPX will likely soften it’s stance - a little - to bridge the last little bit of the gap.

In short - I think BOTH sides will meet somewhere in the middle, and I think the Holy See will allow them the autonomy they are seeking. In other words, the SSPX will be allowed to operate; answerable to THEIR bishops, and in turn answerable to the pope.

This may not happen in our lifetimes, but I think this or something similar to this will happen eventually.

 

[Denise1957]

I believe that the SSPX will indeed be reconciled with the larger Church - eventually.

As the Church shrinks and the ‘fair-weather’ desciples drift away from the Church and organized religion altogether; what remains will be a more conservative Church with a more conservative laity and clergy - thus paving the way for more middle-ground to be found.

The SSPX will likely soften it’s stance - a little - to bridge the last little bit of the gap.

In short - I think BOTH sides will meet somewhere in the middle, and I think the Holy See will allow them the autonomy they are seeking. In other words, the SSPX will be allowed to operate; answerable to THEIR bishops, and in turn answerable to the pope.

This may not happen in our lifetimes, but I think this or something similar to this will happen eventually.

Well said. I agree that when the Church becomes more conservative (or rather, the true teachings of the Church are adhered to by more Catholics), then the climate for reconciliation will be more favorable. That’s why I think that the SSPX will not consider reconciliation until after the dust settles after the synod in October, and it could take a few years for the dust to settle.

I generally follow Bishop Athanasius Schnieder’s perspective as far as what may happen both at, and as a result of the synod, and I apply what he says in regards to what may happen with possible reconciliation for the SSPX. It’s just speculation, of course. I could be wrong.

 

[ProVobis]

But if I recall correctly, during the recent negotiations, they were offered a personal parish or ordinariate situation, which would have been directly under the Pope, as far as jurisdiction goes. I think that they would likely be offered the same in any future negotiations.

Personal prelature, I believe it was called. However, they would still need the local bishop’s permission to operate their chapels there. I don’t think there is anyway around that.

 

[Denise1957]

Personal prelature, I believe it was called. However, they would still need the local bishop’s permission to operate their chapels there. I don’t think there is anyway around that.

Thanks! I had forgotten the correct term. Yes, it’s possible that they’d still need the bishops permission. It’s been awhile since I’ve studied how the prelature status works. I’ll try to look up and do some research to see how other personal prelatures currently work exactly, regarding the need for the bishop’s permission.

 

[ProVobis]

In short - I think BOTH sides will meet somewhere in the middle, and I think the Holy See will allow them the autonomy they are seeking.

OTOH, if Argentina is any indication of what we may be expecting, it just might be a diocese-by-diocese acceptance of the SSPX priests AND their chapels. It may be as simple as allowing them the name “Catholic” or it could be giving them full outright faculties per Holy See approval.

 

[commenter]

Well said. I agree that when the Church becomes more conservative (or rather, the true teachings of the Church are adhered to by more Catholics), then the climate for reconciliation will be more favorable. That’s why I think that the SSPX will not consider reconciliation until after the dust settles after the synod in October, and it could take a few years for the dust to settle.

The person in the SSPX pew is more focused on the Catholic Church, the TLM, affirming Traditional doctrine, etc, than they are about the SSPX itself as an organization. For laity, Prolife and Defense of Marriage are priorities. They want “the dust to settle” as soon as possible.

The SSPX leaders now give a much higher priority to the continuation of the SSPX organization structure than to the other things. It’s not a means to an end, it’s an end in itself. They don’t want “the dust to settle”. As long as SSPX leaders nurture uncertainty in the mind of the laity, most of them will perpetuate the SSPX structure. Thus, there’s always going to be more dust in the air. They will see to it. Official statements by Vatican officials directly involved, are ignored. Rumors are relied on and promoted instead. Websites hint at some progress, some offers that reportedly might have been “on the table” like ordinariates, etc, they keep implying a breakthrough is just around the corner if we can just tough it out a little longer. The websites emphasize the need to maintain the SSPX.

Organizations are founded for a purpose, but after a few decades the organization, itself, becomes the main purpose. Even good and decent people, in administration, fight tooth and nail to preserve the organization’s existence, specifically the positions in the SSPX hierarchy. This was not the case in the 1970s and 1980s SSPX but is now.

 

[Denise1957]

The person in the SSPX pew is more focused on the Catholic Church, the TLM, affirming Traditional doctrine, etc, than they are about the SSPX itself as an organization. For laity, Prolife and Defense of Marriage are priorities. They want “the dust to settle” as soon as possible.

The SSPX leaders now give a much higher priority to the continuation of the SSPX organization structure than to the other things. It’s not a means to an end, it’s an end in itself. They don’t want “the dust to settle”. As long as SSPX leaders nurture uncertainty in the mind of the laity, most of them will perpetuate the SSPX structure. Thus, there’s always going to be more dust in the air. They will see to it. Official statements by Vatican officials directly involved, are ignored. Rumors are relied on and promoted instead. Websites hint at some progress, some offers that reportedly might have been “on the table” like ordinariates, etc, they keep implying a breakthrough is just around the corner if we can just tough it out a little longer. The websites emphasize the need to maintain the SSPX.

Organizations are founded for a purpose, but after a few decades the organization, itself, becomes the main purpose. Even good and decent people, in administration, fight tooth and nail to preserve the organization’s existence, specifically the positions in the SSPX hierarchy. This was not the case in the 1970s and 1980s SSPX but is now.

There was a time when I viewed the SSPX as you do, but I changed my mind. You are entitled to your opinion of course.