Do you believe the Latin Mass..is?

[Legatus]

I]If the parishes begin to offer a reverent N.O. with a sprinkling of Historically Catholic traditions, I think that the TLM could phase out or be kept for special occasions. -end quote.

Not so! Have you ever read the text of the Tridentine Mass right through and compared it with the Novus Ordo Mass. While both are valid and orthodox Many, incuding me, wouild consider the texts of the NO Mass to be rather impoverished compared to twhat came before. It is rather patronizing to suggest that all Tridentine minded people need is "a sprinkling of Historically Catholic traditions.

 

[Legatus]

Legatus:

I]If the parishes begin to offer a reverent N.O. with a sprinkling of Historically Catholic traditions, I think that the TLM could phase out or be kept for special occasions. -end quote

.

Not so! Have you ever read the text of the Tridentine Mass right through and compared it with the Novus Ordo Mass. While both are valid and orthodox Many, incuding me, wouild consider the texts of the NO Mass to be rather impoverished compared to twhat came before. It is rather patronizing to suggest that all Tridentine minded people need is "a sprinkling of Historically Catholic traditions.

Whoops! I made a mistake and wrongly attributed the quote to Dr. Bombay. I apologise.

 

[Legatus]

The pre-Vatican II Mass seems to be growing far more in the U.S. than in Canada. This may be because our bishops can’t understand what is meant by the term “a wide and generous application” but I wonder if there are other sociological reasons. For example, are people who prefer the Tridentine Mass more conservative generally? Please don’t confuse conservatism with orthodoxy. I think that Tridentine people tend to be very orthodox but conservatism can range to many other thihgs e.g. politics, economics etc. In pre-vatican II times priests and people attended the Tridentine Mass (in great numbers) and were orthodox but their politics were all over the map.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Legatus:

The pre-Vatican II Mass seems to be growing far more in the U.S. than in Canada. This may be because our bishops can’t understand what is meant by the term “a wide and generous application” but I wonder if there are other sociological reasons. For example, are people who prefer the Tridentine Mass more conservative generally? Please don’t confuse conservatism with orthodoxy. I think that Tridentine people tend to be very orthodox but conservatism can range to many other thihgs e.g. politics, economics etc. In pre-vatican II times priests and people attended the Tridentine Mass (in great numbers) and were orthodox but their politics were all over the map.

True, but in pre-Vatican II times, we weren’t faced with the choice between one major political party that considered sucking babies out of their mother’s womb into a sink to be a God-given right and another party that gave lip service only to opposing said practice.

It’s my experience that you won’t find many Tridentine Catholics that would put socialist nostrums ahead of killing babies. Therefore, they trend right.

At least, that’s my experience. :tiphat:

As for Canada…well, who knows? It’s Canada after all.

 

[mangy_dog]

I firmly believe that the Traditional Latin Mass will again become the norm and the Novus Ordo will be the exception.

I not only believe this-I pray this with all my heart. If we are going to right the wrongs and fix the problems with our society and our nation, we need to start with proper worship and adoration.

I believe that this is slowly gaining proper attention and will accelerate when the Warning and the Permanent Miracle come to pass.

 

[kozlosap]

I am 23 years old, and a recent convert, so you can’t accuse me of being in it for a “hit of nostalgia”!

The Tridentine Mass teaches respect!

Might I be so bold as to inquire as to what the Latin Mass teaches respect for specifically? As a Catholic who grew up with the EF in the fifties, I find your comment very flip and almost insulting to the other billion Catholics who love and help celebrate the NO. If you like the Latin Mass, then fine, that’s what so great about the Church - those who prefer mass in the. Vernacular and those who like the Latin Mass live side by side. In the eyes of Holy Mother Church the Latin Mass is not more Catholic or respectful than the NO. You are a recent convert to the Faith, so your experiences with different forms of the liturgy are most likely limited. This thread reminds me of the ones that can be found in the Vocations area here on CA - some of the young people thinking of joining religious orders are much more interested in what their habits will look like or if their priestly order wear old fashioned cassocks.

 

[Lormar]

I may be wrong (it wouldn’t be the first and certainly not the last time), but it is my understanding that a thread this old isn’t allowed to be resurrected. Instead, a new thread is supposed to be started.

 

[GangGreen]

other billion Catholics who love and help celebrate the NO

Let’s not exaggerate here. A fraction of Catholics actually attend Mass weekly and who knows how many of those “love” the OF. I’m sure a large percentage of Catholics are quite indifferent to whatever the Mass is.

 

[Sunbreak]

I wouldn’t say it was gaining in popularity to any great extent, nor will it be phased out. There will probably always be people who will be interested in this form of the Mass. However, I don’t see any restoration to this being the Mass of choice for the majority of people.

 

[ProVobis]

I wouldn’t say it was gaining in popularity to any great extent, nor will it be phased out. There will probably always be people who will be interested in this form of the Mass. However, I don’t see any restoration to this being the Mass of choice for the majority of people.

If it were left to the majority of people, all the Masses would be in Spanish.

 

[kozlosap]

Let’s not exaggerate here. A fraction of Catholics actually attend Mass weekly and who knows how many of those “love” the OF. I’m sure a large percentage of Catholics are quite indifferent to whatever the Mass is.

What i meant is that you don’t hear a huge outcry from those “saddled” with mass in the vernacular to go back to a totally Latin mass. As i indicated in my other post, it is a very good thing that we have choices as Catholics - FSSP, Jesuits, Franciscan’s, etc.
There is a place at Our Lord’s table for all of humanity.

 

[ProVobis]

There is a place at Our Lord’s table for all of humanity.

Speaking of table, what happened to the communion rail?

 

[GangGreen]

I personally believe that in 20 or so years (possibly sooner) the Mass that we see today will be changed. How it will change? I’m not sure.

However, I do think there’s a fairly large push for tradition being spread especially among the young. As young priests and laity start gaining positions of power, things will start changing drastically from what we see today.

 

[LisaB]

Might I be so bold as to inquire as to what the Latin Mass teaches respect for specifically?

Since the post was made almost 9 years ago, I doubt the poster is still around to answer your question, but i will take a stab at it.

The answer is, first and foremost, respect for the Eucharist, and also for the priesthood and the Church in general.

 

[JakeWI]

I personally believe that in 20 or so years (possibly sooner) the Mass that we see today will be changed. How it will change? I’m not sure.

However, I do think there’s a fairly large push for tradition being spread especially among the young. As young priests and laity start gaining positions of power, things will start changing drastically from what we see today.

My friend (who is uber religious/Catholic) and I were discussing this two weeks ago… that the pendelum is swinging very traditional in the church once again. It isn’t an overnight change, but it has started swinging back towards the traditions of the church. He was saying it seems to happen ever 100 years or so… as this back and forth has happened in the history of the church. I will say that I am glad to see it swinging the way it is, as I am a young’n (25) who strongly am for the traditions of the church.

 

[otjm]

Let’s not exaggerate here. A fraction of Catholics actually attend Mass weekly and who knows how many of those “love” the OF. I’m sure a large percentage of Catholics are quite indifferent to whatever the Mass is.

According to CARA, there were 17,413 parishes in the US in 2013. Out of that, approximately 400 have the EF to some extent. So yes, it is a fraction.

It is interesting to watch the comments by those attending the EF now; consistently the thread of the reverence they see in the priests offering the Mass shows up.

Not to make too fine a point of it, but having started serving Mass in the 1950’s as an altar boy, it was my experience (and that of my younger brothers) that our pastor could say the 6:30 a.m. weekday Mass in about 15 minutes. Not 20, 15. Not what I would call an overwhelming example of the reverence posters now report.

Granted that was but one example, there are plenty of people my age who can attest that matters “back then” had the same human influences they do today. Some were more reverent; some were less. And so it goes.

I can only speak to information from one seminary; but in speaking to seminarians at one, there is little interest in learning the EF. These are young men who might be characterized as the “John Paul 2” priests; they have been brought up in a time where the Pope (and the subsequent one) were working mightily to implement the changes Vatican 2 set forth. Their focus is on the Church of today, not the Church of pre-Vatican 2. That may sound harsh; but we are seeing young men ordained who are reverent in saying the OF (and no, most of them are not particularly in favor of an all Latin OF). Their focus is on the vast majority of the Church today, and moving forward to bring us closer to Christ.

That is not to question that there are well catechized young people attending an EF. But they are a minority of a minority.

What do I mean of that? Again, according to CARA, the age group that has the highest rate of attendance at weekly Mass is my age group; among the 18 to 25 age group, it has the lowest attendance rate. If 80% of that age group don’t even go to Mass on a regular basis, and if there are 400 +/- parishes out of 17,413 with the EF (that works out to 2.297%), then a small part of a small part of the youth are attending it.

None of this is said to denigrate anything; it is simply factual. There is a lot of enthusiasm, and a lot of comments made which do not reflect the facts. Will the EF take over the OF? There is absolutely zero evidence to indicate that. Nor is there any evidence to presume that the EF will simply slide off into history. The groups of priests (such as FSSP) who are dedicated to saying the EF would indicate it will be around longer than any of us here.

The FSSP will grow; but with 244 priests, that is pretty close to the number of Trappists in the US (probably more), a group that is not what I would call large. Again, just some perspective. And my numbers, if someone wants to fire back, are for the US.

 

[felsguy]

According to CARA, there were 17,413 parishes in the US in 2013. Out of that, approximately 400 have the EF to some extent. So yes, it is a fraction.

It is interesting to watch the comments by those attending the EF now; consistently the thread of the reverence they see in the priests offering the Mass shows up.

Not to make too fine a point of it, but having started serving Mass in the 1950’s as an altar boy, it was my experience (and that of my younger brothers) that our pastor could say the 6:30 a.m. weekday Mass in about 15 minutes. Not 20, 15. Not what I would call an overwhelming example of the reverence posters now report.

Granted that was but one example, there are plenty of people my age who can attest that matters “back then” had the same human influences they do today. Some were more reverent; some were less. And so it goes.

I can only speak to information from one seminary; but in speaking to seminarians at one, there is little interest in learning the EF. These are young men who might be characterized as the “John Paul 2” priests; they have been brought up in a time where the Pope (and the subsequent one) were working mightily to implement the changes Vatican 2 set forth. Their focus is on the Church of today, not the Church of pre-Vatican 2. That may sound harsh; but we are seeing young men ordained who are reverent in saying the OF (and no, most of them are not particularly in favor of an all Latin OF). Their focus is on the vast majority of the Church today, and moving forward to bring us closer to Christ.

That is not to question that there are well catechized young people attending an EF. But they are a minority of a minority.

What do I mean of that? Again, according to CARA, the age group that has the highest rate of attendance at weekly Mass is my age group; among the 18 to 25 age group, it has the lowest attendance rate. If 80% of that age group don’t even go to Mass on a regular basis, and if there are 400 +/- parishes out of 17,413 with the EF (that works out to 2.297%), then a small part of a small part of the youth are attending it.

None of this is said to denigrate anything; it is simply factual. There is a lot of enthusiasm, and a lot of comments made which do not reflect the facts. Will the EF take over the OF? There is absolutely zero evidence to indicate that. Nor is there any evidence to presume that the EF will simply slide off into history. The groups of priests (such as FSSP) who are dedicated to saying the EF would indicate it will be around longer than any of us here.

The FSSP will grow; but with 244 priests, that is pretty close to the number of Trappists in the US (probably more), a group that is not what I would call large. Again, just some perspective. And my numbers, if someone wants to fire back, are for the US.

“Mr. Spock, this is the Captain speaking. Deflector shields up!”

 

[ProVobis]

Not to make too fine a point of it, but having started serving Mass in the 1950’s as an altar boy, it was my experience (and that of my younger brothers) that our pastor could say the 6:30 a.m. weekday Mass in about 15 minutes. Not 20, 15. Not what I would call an overwhelming example of the reverence posters now report.

Granted that was but one example, there are plenty of people my age who can attest that matters “back then” had the same human influences they do today. Some were more reverent; some were less. And so it goes.

For the record, Mass reforms were begun before the 50’s. And by the late 50’s one prominent handmissal (St. Joseph) had cut the Latin in its propers supposedly to save space. In retrospect, it seems that that was one of the ways in which people became conditioned for the upcoming elimination of Latin altogether. After all, how can people miss something they had never seen.

As for the 15 minutes, take away the sermon and 95% of communion at the daily OF Mass, it wouldn’t be that much different today. I wouldn’t call that irreverent though.

 

[otjm]

For the record, Mass reforms were begun before the 50’s. And by the late 50’s one prominent handmissal (St. Joseph) had cut the Latin in its propers supposedly to save space. In retrospect, it seems that that was one of the ways in which people became conditioned for the upcoming elimination of Latin altogether. After all, how can people miss something they had never seen.

As for the 15 minutes, take away the sermon and 95% of communion at the daily OF Mass, it wouldn’t be that much different today. I wouldn’t call that irreverent though.

You might not call it irreverent, but not to make too fine point of it, I am being generous about the 15 minutes. My youngest brother is still absolutely certain that the priest could say Latin while breathing in as well as breathing out.

He rushed through it as fast as he could. The problem with alcohol probably didn’t help matters.

 

[ProVobis]

I am being generous about the 15 minutes. My youngest brother is still absolutely certain that the priest could say Latin while breathing in as well as breathing out.

And that’s why right after Vatican II, the first thing they did was to cut the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the second Confiteor, the Last Gospel, and the communion formula, because the Mass was too short?

The problem with alcohol probably didn’t help matters.

Wow, you couldn’t think of another reason?

FWIW, I find it strange that someone who held the Baltimore Catechism to a high esteem (in another thread) would stoop to criticize everything else from that period.