Do you believe the Shroud of Turin is real?

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On second thought, JR, I will cite only one of many incidences where you exalt St. Francis above all others, lest readers think I am off the mark in giving a caution to you.
No other saint prior to Francis or after him has ever duplicated this intimate relationship with Christ as perfectly, though Mother Teresa comes close.
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This relationship has been proven by the Church and sustained by the Church. This is why the Church celebrates the liturgy of the Stigmata of St. Francis on Sept 17.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4152380&postcount=111
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You will note that in the same post you again fail to mention that the liturgy for the stigmata is only celebrated in the Franciscan order and lead the reader to believe it is much more than that by being celebrated throughout the universal Church. This omission can also be found in many of your posts with a simple search.
 
Joysong said:
On second thought, JR, I will cite only one of many incidences where you exalt St. Francis above all others, lest readers think I am off the mark in giving a caution to you.

You will note that in the same post you again fail to mention that the liturgy for the stigmata is only celebrated in the Franciscan order and lead the reader to believe it is much more than that by being celebrated throughout the universal Church. This omission can also be found in many of your posts with a simple search.
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These are words that I have paraphrased from Franciscan historians and biographers:

Thomas of Celano
St. Bonaventure
Cajetan Esser
Ignacio Larañaga, SJ
Regis Armstrong, OFM, Cap.
Chesterton
Pope Pius XI
Pope Leo XIII
Mother Teresa
Padre Pio

As to the Feast of the Stigmata, to the best of my knowledge, it is the only one of its kind currently approved as a liturgical feast. It was not created by the Franciscan Order. It was at their petition, yes, but approved by the Holy See. It is celebrated in every house and parish where there are Franciscans, just as the feast of St. Teresa is a solemnity in every house and parish where there are Carmelites.

When a feast is approved, be it for a specific religious family, diocese, or nation, it is approved under the authority of the Universal Church. No one else has the authority to create a liturgical feast.

The point here is not my teaching on the Franciscan path. The point is to lead souls to follow the Gospel using whatever path God places before them.

As a matter of fact, I dearly love Teresa’s theology of detachment and have written and taught extensively about it. There is no reason why you, a Carmelite, should not create a thread to teach others about her and her path to God. There are souls out there looking for a spiritual master. Teresa is certainly one who is worthy of respect and discipleship.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the wounds on the Shroud, which is how this conversation got started between Paul and I. Why don’t we get back to that?

If I have said anything that you may have found confusing or disturbing, I sincerely apologize. Such was not my intention.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
These are words that I have paraphrased from Franciscan historians and biographers:
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Clearly, you did not name your sources but repeated it numerous times as your own words. That these others said it does not make it prudent or accurate, and I would issue the very same caution if I met them personally. They were not popes in a teaching capacity. However, from a previous discussion in another thread, we focused on the words of Pope Pius XI who stated:
If some dare to compare one with another the heavenly heroes of sanctity destined by the Holy Ghost each to his own special mission among men - these comparisons, the fruit for the most part of party passions, are valueless and are at the same time an insult to God, the author of sanctity -
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I believe this statement holds more wisdom and weight as coming from the Vicar of Christ than the sources you persist in requoting by putting Francis above all other saints. One whom I would expect to be rather high on the list above St. Francis is St. Joseph, the patron of the universal Church. But I dare not, in my esteem for him, believe or assert in public forums that he is without a doubt the greatest saint of all.

JR, in the Book of Proverbs, I read a verse that impressed me many years ago that goes something like this: *Let your foot be seldom in your neighbor’s house, lest he have his fill of thee and hate thee. * An example of this is the time when St. Paul was trying to evangelize in a certain town, he came upon a possessed girl who kept telling everyone about him in the public arena 
 so much so, that Paul was grieved and cast out the demon from her. She told the truth, but it was overkill and overkill always prevents any of us from truly ‘hearing’ a solemn message. May I suggest that your overkill with St. Francis will have the effect of failing to draw others to him.

Two cents
 
You still haven’t answered the question. Your rant about nameless textbooks (I don’t even know to which books you are referring), and the Sudarium, really has nothing to do with it. How do you conclude “you don’t want anyone to believe in religious relics” from “what makes your source reliable”?
It’s quite obvious from your ad hominem attacks questioning my faith, that you have no answer at all.
 
mouse_has_faith said:
You still haven’t answered the question. Your rant about nameless textbooks (I don’t even know to which books you are referring), and the Sudarium, really has nothing to do with it. How do you conclude “you don’t want anyone to believe in religious relics” from “what makes your source reliable”?
It’s quite obvious from your ad hominem attacks questioning my faith, that you have no answer at all.
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Good grief mouse, you still obsessing? Why on earth don’t you “google” other websites, if you don’t like that one?

Here’s five others for a start (since you question the one I cited) :

www.shroud.com/heraseng.pdf

shroudstory.com/faq-sudarium.htm

historicaljesusquest.com/sudarium.htm

skepticalspectacle.com/history04.htm

frtommylane.com/homilies/pilgrimage/sudarium.htm

Don’t forget to do a check on all of them to make sure they are 100% reliable–oh and I wouldn’t just rely on snopes if I were you–there have been mistakes made there–perhaps you’ll want to contact each site in your investigation. đŸ€·
 
Xenos8 said:
John 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

To the best of my knowledge they wrapped up the body like a mummy and covered the head with a cloth, maybe the prayer shawl. That alone means the shroud can’t be real. It doesn’t fit the bible and the Jewish burial customs.
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Just to be clear – I am agnostic about the Shroud. But I won’t diss it, either: why look for trouble? 😃

Jim’s passage from Luke indicates that Jesus had not yet been so wrapped with linen and spices, so seems on its face to be contrary to John’s account.

No matter. Assume John is literally correct: Jesus was wrapped in linen and spices, His head wrapped separately. Fine: this would mean that the Shroud is probably not the burial linen.

But here’s a question that just occurred to me: When Jesus was taken down from the Cross, how was He transported to the tomb? I doubt he was dragged there, or even merely carried between two men; and I think a fireman-carry can be definitely ruled out. And even when Jesus was first taken down from the Cross, would He have been unceremoniously laid on the bare ground, or would there have been a sheet or some such to hold Him? Remember, these were not only observant Jews, but His friends, who loved Him. What would you have done, if you were charged with retrieving a friend’s body from a cross?

How is this for a shot in the dark:

He was taken down from the cross and laid on a cloth that was then used to cover Him. He was picked up and laid gently on a litter and carried to the tomb, where His friends prepared Him for His burial.

Maybe the cloths used in the tomb – like His swaddling clothes – are lost to history. Perhaps the Shroud of Turin is indeed a “death-shroud” of Jesus, just not the particular one we’re thinking of?

Just thinking out loud.
 
AMDGtoo, I am not going to do your research for you. If you cannot provide an accurate, reliable source then your assertion that the tests dating the Shroud to antiquity are certainly no more valid than my assertion that the 1988 date is still accepted, especially since my source holds greater academic merit.

The fact that you have questioned my faith and now have called me obsessive merely for questioning the validity of your sources reflects quite poorly upon you. The previous people in this thread who disagreed with me (Jim, AlanF) were quite civil about it. It is very obvious you have absolutely no substantial weight behind any of your claims, hence the anger when someone calls your bluff.
 
mouse_has_faith said:
AMDGtoo, I am not going to do your research for you.
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Says a person who keeps dragging up the fact that he doesn’t think any of the links provided are reliable, even though I have no problem with them.

Honestly, give it a rest. I have voted. I said that I think that the Shroud is authentic and although I really didn’t have to say why, I said that my reason is due to the Sudarium of Oviedo plus I gave a link (plus five more) so that anyone else could see my reasoning if he wanted to–its up to him. Look I have no “axe to grind”, no personal “agenda” in this. Case closed.
 
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AMDGtoo, I said the 1988 date was still acceptable, and I cited a source to back me up; you said it wasn’t, and then you posted links to back you up. Stalemate. So I went to the sources; which source (and hence date of the Shroud) is likely to be more reliable; yours or mine? It was an honest question, and believe it or not, I’m willing to be persuaded otherwise on this subject, providing good sources are cited. I kept giving you the opportunity to do that, but you only responded by dodging the question, ignoring it, and finally, reverting to insults.

You don’t need to tell me you don’t have a personal agenda; I believe you. In fact, no-one ever accused you of having one. You have taken this argument/ debate far too personally; I, on the other hand, don’t mind when people disagree with me (I was enjoying the debate up until the insults), but they must provide something to back them up. You are entitled to your opinion, and I would be one of the last to deny you that, however I too am entitled to question you when you make it publicly known. You may decline to provide a valid reason for your opinion in this matter, but that does not automatically make it inviolate. Certainly, responding with personal insults is unreasonable.

The topic of the thread is the Shroud, so don’t complain when people talk about the Shroud.

P.S. I am a “she”. 😉
 
mouse_has_faith said:
AMDGtoo, I said the 1988 date was still acceptable, and I cited a source to back me up; you said it wasn’t, and then you posted links to back you up. Stalemate. So I went to the sources; which source (and hence date of the Shroud) is likely to be more reliable; yours or mine? It was an honest question, and believe it or not, I’m willing to be persuaded otherwise on this subject, providing good sources are cited. I kept giving you the opportunity to do that, but you only responded by dodging the question, ignoring it, and finally, reverting to insults.

You don’t need to tell me you don’t have a personal agenda; I believe you. In fact, no-one ever accused you of having one. You have taken this argument/ debate far too personally; I, on the other hand, don’t mind when people disagree with me (I was enjoying the debate up until the insults), but they must provide something to back them up. You are entitled to your opinion, and I would be one of the last to deny you that, however I too am entitled to question you when you make it publicly known. You may decline to provide a valid reason for your opinion in this matter, but that does not automatically make it inviolate. Certainly, responding with personal insults is unreasonable.

The topic of the thread is the Shroud, so don’t complain when people talk about the Shroud.

P.S. I am a “she”. 😉
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Mouse, I do not debate men or women and I do not appreciate baiting or being “strong armed”. I said my opinion. I voted and my vote stands. Now I choose not to post in this thread at all. Have a good day.
 
That’s fine. Actually, I purposefully remained faithful to the topic of the thread (the Shroud); it was your own attempts at changing the subject and the insults which could be considered “baiting”.
Like I said, you’ve taken this debate way too personally.
If you do not like debating, though, may I suggest in future you state that from the outset rather than engage in debate and then say you don’t like it.
 
I have a crucifix in which the face of Jesus on the Cross is designed to be just like the Shroud of Turin. Regardless if the Shroud is authentic or not, I still think my crucifix is pretty nifty!
 
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