Do you believe there is one true church?

[jack_hawkins]

this figure of 30,000 has been debunked and shouldn’t be cited as if it were true

 

[Sixtus]

At the last official count, Protestants have 6,743,982 denominations

• Protestants believe in ‘Sola Scriptura’
• Therefore ‘Sola Scriptura’ is the cause of 6,743,982 denominations.

Now common sense says they cannot all be right

Catholicism has Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Charasmatic and Traditional, Progressive and Traditional, but they ALL agree about three things: The Teaching Magisterium [to varying degrees], the centrality of the Eucharist and Real Presence and the Sacraments of the Church. That by my books makes them ‘one’!

 

[Sixtus]

At the last official count, Protestants have 6,743,982 denominations

• Protestants believe in ‘Sola Scriptura’
• Therefore ‘Sola Scriptura’ is the cause of 6,743,982 denominations.

Now common sense says they cannot all be right

Catholicism has Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Charasmatic and Traditional, Progressive and Traditional, but they ALL agree about three things:

          1.The Teaching Magisterium [to varying degrees], 
          2.The centrality of the Eucharist and Real Presence
          3.he Sacraments of the Church.

That by my books makes them ‘one’!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

It comes from a book of statistics that also claims that the Catholic Church has over 300 denominations.

Thank you. I wonder what book of statistics that would be - everyone seems to have a copy except me.

Could you say that again in a simpler way? I’m afraid I don’t know what it means. (The choice of an informed conscience is to do the right thing. I’m not sure what that has to do with Protestantism, or how Protestantism could ever be a right choice.)

My grammar was incorrect: those Christians who are not Catholic Christians do have choices, just as Catholic Christians do. These choices are made on the basis of an informed conscience. I think you know what that means.

Someone once wrote that it took her 17 years to decide to join the Catholic Church, although she was already an actively practising Christian. She wrote that in the end (and I quote)

I could not help thinking of a Catholic friend of mine who had died amid the chanting of Rosaries and the Prayers for the Sick, and felt a little jealous. The words of Oscar Wilde came to me at that moment - “It is better to die a Catholic.” Looking back later, I also realized in a very profound way that what one’s relatives think of one at the end of one’s life is so completely unimportant, compared to what God thinks of one, and also, I suddenly realized that the reason I had been avoiding converting to the Catholic Church was because of what my parents and brother and husband would think of me.

Two things strike me here. First, that it is difficult to make an informed choice, even if it is searching us out, and even if we are actively searching it out. Ultimately however, the correct choice will be revealed if we allow ourselves to be accessible to it. This is not an easy thing to do for anyone.

And it sometimes takes a long time to move from a protestant persuasion - and the support of many people - to the Catholic paradigm. It is just as difficult to move in the other direction. We should not perhaps be surprised if many fellow-Christians are unsure about what God wants for them.

Secondly, her choice was made in the face of familial disapproval. (I think that is what was implied in the quote). Why did her family disapprove? I feel very much the same: my friends and my family are not happy at all about my quest to join the Catholic Church.

Why do many people who are not Catholic congregants have a bias towards this particular Church? Why do Catholics on this Forum feel they are being attacked? There is inevitably an element of paranoia here - because defence of the faith is a paramount consideration.

There are other reasons however, and they perhaps have to do with the perception outsiders have of Catholicism as a whole, and the fear it perpetuates among those who do not know it. This is parallel perhaps to the disdain Catholics have for those who are not the same as they are.

Ultimately, what I am trying to think about is why the Catholic Church is rabidly attacked by some, and disliked and even feared by others. What emanates from its essence that leads others to fear and, often unjustly, chastise it?

 

[Carol_Coombe]

At the last official count, Protestants have 6,743,982 denominations

• Protestants believe in ‘Sola Scriptura’
• Therefore ‘Sola Scriptura’ is the cause of 6,743,982 denominations.

Now common sense says they cannot all be right

Catholicism has Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Charasmatic and Traditional, Progressive and Traditional, but they ALL agree about three things:

1.The Teaching Magisterium [to varying degrees],
2.The centrality of the Eucharist and Real Presence
3.he Sacraments of the Church.

That by my books makes them ‘one’!

I think the only question that needs asking here is ‘How do you define denomination’? If by that you mean churches like the small apostolic sects that abound in a number of countries (we have about 6000 here in our country of 50m people), then there may be about 6+million similar churches. However, as there are only about 70 million reformed church Christians associated with the World Council of Churches, the number seems too high by far.

Mainline reformed churches belong principally to high-profile denominations: Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican and Episcopalian, United, for example, and I think you know that.

Let me also assure you that in our country, we have five independent Dominican Provinces. There are ways and ways of counting, and I am not sure what this has to do with the universal church of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Oh goodness me: where did this come from!? I thought you were getting your act together, but this is simply the kind of biased opinion that you were setting out a few weeks ago, on the basis of nothing.

jmcrae is explaining what is set out in the Catechism. I don’t call it nothing! Just because people have different beliefs than you does not mean they don’t have their “act together”. However, I can see how post to which you are responding seems to point the “guilty” finger at all protestants. In truth, most protestants have no clue about the obligations jmcrae spells out here, and are therefore invincibly ignorant. They only know what they are taught, and most protestants are non-sacramental. I disagree on one point with jmcrae, that is the application of the term “heretic”. While such persons are not practicing within the fullness of the truth as revealed by Jesus through His apostles, they cannot be rightly called heretics. In order to qualify for that title, one must first know the truth, then willfully turn from it. Since most protesants have been taught errors about Catholicism from the beginning, they may be misguided, but don’t qualify as heretics. Now, if they listen to John Corapi and THEN turn away, that is another story…

 

[Efrain]

Each denomination has a different take on important aspects of belief, of faith, and I think it is this diversity that keeps interpretation clean, that allows those who have strong practical social consciences to join certain churches, and those who prefer to be led by strongly applied doctrine to join others.

I have trouble understanding your point of view on how different doctrines keep interpretation clean. It is true that diversity helps build each other up using our different God given gifts. Although when different doctrines contradict each other it is more of a cloudiness than clean interpretation. When we proclaim the holiness of our Lord to each other we shed light upon one another of the Truth, which happens to be absolute. When we differ and say its alright to have our own truths, then we preach relativism which is harmful to each others faith and make it harder for us to see the fullness of Truth.

If some churches accept gay marriage, for example and another will not then we are given false choices and paths to the Truth. Our social consciences should not determine the Truth for it will lead us to our own truth and we end up serving our own selves rather than giving up the world to recieve the fullness of Jesus.

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you. I wonder what book of statistics that would be - everyone seems to have a copy except me.

I don’t have a copy of it, either, which is why I don’t attempt to count the number of Protestant denominations.

My grammar was incorrect: those Christians who are not Catholic Christians do have choices, just as Catholic Christians do. These choices are made on the basis of an informed conscience. I think you know what that means.

Not all choices are informed choices. Sometimes the information we have (and upon which we base our decisions) is inaccurate.

Someone once wrote that it took her 17 years to decide to join the Catholic Church, although she was already an actively practising Christian. She wrote that in the end (and I quote)

I could not help thinking of a Catholic friend of mine who had died amid the chanting of Rosaries and the Prayers for the Sick, and felt a little jealous. The words of Oscar Wilde came to me at that moment - “It is better to die a Catholic.” Looking back later, I also realized in a very profound way that what one’s relatives think of one at the end of one’s life is so completely unimportant, compared to what God thinks of one, and also, I suddenly realized that the reason I had been avoiding converting to the Catholic Church was because of what my parents and brother and husband would think of me.

Two things strike me here. First, that it is difficult to make an informed choice, even if it is searching us out, and even if we are actively searching it out. Ultimately however, the correct choice will be revealed if we allow ourselves to be accessible to it. This is not an easy thing to do for anyone.

In the case of that particular person, there were still some pieces of information missing. When the missing pieces of information were provided to her, she did not delay in converting.

Secondly, her choice was made in the face of familial disapproval. (I think that is what was implied in the quote). Why did her family disapprove? I feel very much the same: my friends and my family are not happy at all about my quest to join the Catholic Church.

I think my brother may have let the cat out of the bag when he jokingly said to me one time, “I hate your Church because it’s not up to me what the rules are for you any more - and I don’t even know the people who do make your rules for you, so I can’t even bribe them!”

I think what scares him most is the idea that, because he’s not following the Church’s rules, that somehow, I would love him less.

I have, of course, reassured him that this isn’t even possible, since my love for him isn’t based on anything he does or doesn’t do - it’s based on the fact that he’s my brother - a fact that isn’t ever going to change, no matter what.

 

[jmcrae]

At the last official count, Protestants have 6,743,982 denominations

• Protestants believe in ‘Sola Scriptura’
• Therefore ‘Sola Scriptura’ is the cause of 6,743,982 denominations.

That seems wildly inflated. Are there even that many Protestants in the whole world?

Now common sense says they cannot all be right

Even if there were only two or three, this would still be so.

Catholicism has Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Charasmatic and Traditional, Progressive and Traditional, but they ALL agree about three things:

          1.The Teaching Magisterium [to varying degrees], 
          2.The centrality of the Eucharist and Real Presence
          3.he Sacraments of the Church.

That by my books makes them ‘one’!

Actually it’s the fact that we are all joined in full communion with Peter’s Successor that makes us One.

 

[Efrain]

Because Christ is omniscient, knows the future, he must have known there would be a fragmentation of His universal church on earth. He did not try to stop it by intervening to prevent schism. So why is it fragmented still.?

Free will.

 

[guanophore]

? I feel very much the same: my friends and my family are not happy at all about my quest to join the Catholic Church.

Why do many people who are not Catholic congregants have a bias towards this particular Church? Why do Catholics on this Forum feel they are being attacked?

There is a lot of Catholic bashing here. I just read two very rude comments on another thread.

There is inevitably an element of paranoia here - because defence of the faith is a paramount consideration.

I think this is a little strong. Defensiveness, maybe. Not paranoia. Paranoia suggests that attacks are not happening, when in fact, they are.

Am not sure what you mean by the defense of the faith being paramount. If you mean that is the flavor here, especially in the apologitecs fora, then I agree. In general, though, I think most Catholics could care less to defend their faith.

There are other reasons however, and they perhaps have to do with the perception outsiders have of Catholicism as a whole, and the fear it perpetuates among those who do not know it. This is parallel perhaps to the disdain Catholics have for those who are not the same as they are.

Other reasons for what? The defensiveness you find here?

Ultimately, what I am trying to think about is why the Catholic Church is rabidly attacked by some, and disliked and even feared by others. What emanates from its essence that leads others to fear and, often unjustly, chastise it?

The servant is not greater than the Master!

Matt 27:29
29 and plaiting a crown of thorns they put it on his head, and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!

Matt 27:41
41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him,"

Luke 22:63

63 Now the men who were holding Jesus mocked him and beat him;"

 

[PauloFreire2]

“As I noted above, Christians of the protestant persuasion are not persuaded about the existence of purgatory, which must therefore be populated by Catholics only.”

Oh…I see. God operates on your terms. ***Kewl. ***Let’s see…in that case, why don’t you ***tell ***Him to caugh up a billion dollars, so you don’t have to work anymore?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Carol Coombe:

I hesitate to ask, but I would be interested in knowing where your obsession with Luther comes from?

Evidently you did not hesitate long enough.

Moreover, ‘obsession’ is quite strong language; and an unwarranted putdown of a considered contribution to this discussion, I would note.

:dts:

I notice by the way that you have in no way even bothered to respond to the content in my post. Ah well, that leaves folks thinking that you have nothing substantive to add.
Carol Coombe:

He seems to symbolise the entire period of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation for you.

You have no way of knowing that. Please do not attempt to mindread. :hypno: Thank you.
Carol Coombe:

There is a much broader and far more complex picture to be painted here

I posted what I thought was necessary for this thread. Unlike you I am loathe to take up two pages to post what I have to contribute.

If it is complexity for which you are looking then perhaps you would do us the favour of providing it? :bounce:
Carol Coombe:

and many more figures of central importance to the schism within the Roman Church. Perhaps it would help us all if you could elaborate slightly beyond this one figure.

‘Central’ importance? How many figures do you consider to be of ‘central’ importance? Moreover, since you are interested in those ‘many more figures’ whom I have left out, please feel free to champion their causes at length.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Oh goodness me: where did this come from!? I thought you were getting your act together, but this is simply the kind of biased opinion that you were setting out a few weeks ago, on the basis of nothing.

You have not demonstrated that it is biassed opinion. I note that you often do not respond to content by contributing reasoned and referenced points of your own but instead rely heavily on rhetorical judgments of other people’s points.

 

[Efrain]

Why do many people who are not Catholic congregants have a bias towards this particular Church? Why do Catholics on this Forum feel they are being attacked? There is inevitably an element of paranoia here - because defence of the faith is a paramount consideration.

From my experience it is due to ignorance and false teachings of those on the outside looking in. Complancency of those who read the bible and think they have full revelation of the Word of God and can therefore judge others by their own interpretation of the Truth. Their are false presumptions and prejudice in abundance about the actual teachings and doctries of the Church.

“Not 100 in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is” Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Carol Coombe:

Sophistry?

Another unsupported and unwarranted putdown.
Carol Coombe:

And one of the concerns of the reformers was the intervention of civil authorities in the affairs of the Church.

Indeed it was. Hence the political chaos which ensued and which the reformers took full advantage of.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Maybe no time for thinking either?

And another unsupported and unwarranted putdown.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Carol Coombe:

Because Christ is omniscient, knows the future, he must have known there would be a fragmentation of His universal church on earth. He did not try to stop it by intervening to prevent schism. So why is it fragmented still.? Perhaps because the defiance and mocking is not all on one side, sadly.

Non sequitur (sadly).
Carol Coombe:

I would not put myself or my spirit in the hands of many people on this thread, protestant or Catholic.

Wow, another unsupported and unwarranted putdown.
Carol Coombe:

But it is particularly the certainty of members of CC that they are in every case, circumstance, interpretation, rite, doctrine, dogma, dictat (etc etc you get the idea) absolutely correct and servants and purveyors of the Absolute Truth (absolutely unproveable), and the way in which that certainty is presented to us all, that is difficult to engage with.

I am not sure if that is a sentence. If it is, then it is definitely a run-on. In any case it is a strawman. Church members may be in error. The Magisterium may not be.
Carol Coombe:

And we are all aware of that.

Wiser to speak for yourself. ‘All’ is a lot of people.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Probably for the same reason that He let the unbelieving disciples go their way, in John 6:67, without saying, “Hey, wait! If that’s too hard for you, I can make it easier!”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

jack hawkins:

this figure of 30,000 has been debunked and shouldn’t be cited as if it were true

Sixtus:

At the last official count, Protestants have 6,743,982 denominations

(Ani grimly holds the sides of her chair to keep herself from falling off. Ani falls off anyway and takes the chair down with her.)

Sixtus:

Catholicism has Left and Right, Liberal and Conservative, Charasmatic and Traditional, Progressive and Traditional

You forgot the Cafeteria. D-oh! :doh2: Oh yeah, it’s closed. But we can still count it, can’t we?