Do you believe there is one true church?

[Efrain]

And it seems possible that this Forum (viz Keating’s letter on liberal recommendations) is trying very hard to keep anything new from happening. Does this mean that we must all remain in a fundamentalist, conservative paradigm forever, all our lives? Or can we follow the Church’s teaching (*The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, *1993) and find some wiggle room which would bring us more into line with social and political contexts, 2000 years after Christ made his sacrifice for us. If we did this, would you designate us heretics?

Who, within the Catholic Church, are defined as heretics, in your opinion?

Quite honestly Keating is not the authority of the Church, so it is not wise to take a lay person’s information as concrete.

All I can say about politics is that the state should listen to people and the people to the Church. Conservative, fundametalist, liberal etc. are too vague for us to be grouped as. If you ask me personally I feel we should be more progresive in the sense of repairing the damage done in our society by secularism and materialism. The Truth remains unchanged and unmovable for all eternity and the Church who safe guards theTruth, should not bend over backwards to appease “society”. Finding wiggle room in the teachings of the Church is exactly what happened with the Reformation. Wiggle room to me is “own interpretation to justify my own beliefs” these beliefs one may have do not always coincide with the teachings of Christ but instead gives us self justification and leads us to believe that our truth is real Truth. This is quite dangerous if you ask me.

Who I feel is defined as a heretic in the Church is anyone with authority, a deacon or higher, who does not follow the Magesterium to the fullest. It is not up to me to decide who is since I do not have that authority. All I can do is discern the spirit and see the fruit produced if any from an individual.

 

[Efrain]

Right now we see through a glass darkly. My relationship with God is so clouded over by doctrine and dogma, do this and don’t do that, eat this flesh and drink this blood, that He has disappeared somewhere into the unknown. I regret this. I want my intimate relationship with Him back, without having to worry about transubstantiation or Mariology or Absolute Truth.

I think you need to pray for understanding of why certain doctrines exist. Do not let this cloudiness discourage you for it is the enemy at work. Now what I have come to realize is that these doctrines are actually needed to have a deeper relationship with Jesus. I can only speak for my self but as a cradle Catholic I failed to understand certain things as I was growing up and ended up as a border line agnostic at one point. Praise be to God that I was delivered and have a deeper relationship with Christ now more than ever. In my opinion what we can do when we fail to understand doctrine is prayer, study and fellowship to bring us to understanding. God has blessed with a thirst and hunger and we should go out feed on the food the Lord has given us.

Believe me, these doctrines you are strugling with do lead us to a simplyfied and deeper relationship with Jesus. Just take it a step at a time and believe that Wisdom is given to us in abundance as long as we ask for it with fear and trembling.

 

[Efrain]

I am failing to see why there cannot be diversity within the unity of the universal church, the body of Christ. Is it not like a country, a nation, with many varying ethnicities, geographical features, and economic circumstances, which is nevertheless regarded as a single unity - like the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom or South Africa (and perhaps particularly the latter, given its recent past under the apartheid regime).

Unity in diversity, strength in diversity.

Diversity or individuality is essential in the Church. We are given by God different gifts that should be used to building up each other. Each member is a piece of the puzzle.

Diversity in doctrines is harmful for the unity of the Church. When doctrines contradict each other then we are given a stumbling block to the Truth. What makes a nation great is the ability have the same thing/s in common. We Christians and Catholics have more in common than what we realize. The pope has stressed an the importance on focusing on our common beliefs rather than the differences. The main challenge is that we may all become as one which sometimes means that we have to have different outlooks on what we believed was true.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Non-Catholic Christians might get into Heaven. BUT…they’ll probably have to do time in Purgatory for their heresy and schisms

Can you prove Purgatory using Scripture, not tradition? (I’ve heard it all, by the way … ^_^) When you’re done, THEN we’ll talk heretics.

lol I’m just kidding. I don’t think Catholics are heretics anymore so than Protestants (they’re both pretty far off from Scripture, but they’ll never admit that).

 

[Harsalter]

I don’t think Catholics are heretics anymore so than Protestants (they’re both pretty far off from Scripture, but they’ll never admit that).

Oh now wait a minute. Christ created the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Protestants in protest 1500 years later left Christ’s Church, so don’t call Catholic’s the heretics in this context.

That would be like calling the late Sen. Strom Thurmond, who left the democratic party and created a third party named the Dixiecrats, than later joined the GOP, a democrat. NO! He died a republican.

Protestants have no authority in their church, as their founders left the true church. They gave up the apostolic succession and all the other sacraments that can only come through Christ’s authority.

And as an ex-protestant (so. baptist), let me verify that there is a “Real Presence” in the Holy Eucharist", you can feel Christ’s presence in the confession booth, you can feel electricity when you are Confirmed and when you receive the “annointing of the sick” from a Catholic Priest, etc, etc.

I felt nothing as a baptist. Same old dry hymns, same old lukewarm sermons, and same old KJV Bibles that Martin Luther removed entire books from. Baptists don’t worship. They go to church, sing some hymns, and listen to a preacher preach, then smoke on the church’s front porch after the service. Where exactly is the worship? I never understood it. I always knew there was something missing, I just had no clue HOW MUCH was missing.

The further proestants get away from the true church, the less theology they have.

 

[jmcrae]

What makes you certain that Pope Benedict 16 is the successor of Peter? Maybe the real heresy was when the church wouldn’t listen to the claims that Martin Luther laid out and continued to practice in fashions contrary to eraly church teaching and scripture.

I believe that if God had intended for us to follow Martin Luther, then God would have made Martin Luther to be our Pope. He did not.

 

[Sixtus]

I believe that if God had intended for us to follow Martin Luther, then God would have made Martin Luther to be our Pope. He did not.

Please do not keep saying things like that…all the laughter gives me a funny turn Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Carol Coombe:

Canada in particular has resisted always the ‘melting pot’ concept of a nation, and has endorsed and encouraged multi-ethnicity, many different peoples under one flag.

Yes and no. More often than not it is many different peoples under one Family Compact.
Carol Coombe:

Internationally, Canada is seen as Canada.

Not anymore. Canada has recognized that Quebec can be seen as Quebec in the international sphere.
Carol Coombe:

Likewise, it is possible to contemplate that Christians are Christians to the world, but that within that framework, great diversity is not only permissible, desireable but encouraged.

The assumption is that all those who leave the Church are in fact diverse. This is not necessarily so. They may be diverse in the sense of what they believe but they are not diverse in the sense that they all choose to be led by their own opinions.

In the sense that those who leave the Church all choose to be led by their own opinions, they are all the same. Being the same and being diverse are contradictions in terms.
Carol Coombe:

I know that that concept confronts every principle of the supremacy of the Catholic Church and its ownership of the Absolute Truth. But I do believe that this is the way the world is moving, and our faith must move with it.

In other words, the world is right and, because the world is right the faith of all must follow the world.

First step: please demonstrate that the world is right.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Clearly, I do not believe so. The Church was responsible for the Counter-Reformation, and that purification happened from within the Church as it was constituted at that time.

Perhaps there is a problem here that has been addressed many times over elsewhere, although I have not studied it. We are perhaps talking past each other in terms of the word ‘unity’. Your unity, put crudely, is unity within the paradigm of the Catholic Church. My unity, put crudely, is unity within the universal church of Christ, or Christendom.

I am failing to see why there cannot be diversity within the unity of the universal church, the body of Christ. Is it not like a country, a nation, with many varying ethnicities, geographical features, and economic circumstances, which is nevertheless regarded as a single unity - like the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom or South Africa (and perhaps particularly the latter, given its recent past under the apartheid regime).

Canada in particular has resisted always the ‘melting pot’ concept of a nation, and has endorsed and encouraged multi-ethnicity, many different peoples under one flag. This is quite distinct from the US pressure on citizens to be Good Americans before anything else. Canadians are hyphenated (Chinese-Canadian, French-Canadian, Russian-Canadian, and even a few of the original Scots-Canadians). Toronto is said to be the most multi-ethnic city in the world, and I believe that is true.

There are inevitably problems - French-speaking Quebec wanting increased political and economic power for example - but these are for the most part resolvable (I am trying to ignore examples in Rwanda, Serbia, Ireland and Sri Lanka at the moment, which have special concerns).

Internationally, Canada is seen as Canada. Within Canada and its provinces (the biggest of which is now operated by 25,000 First Nations peoples) the ethnic and regional differentiations are more visible. But Canadians are Canadians.

Likewise, it is possible to contemplate that Christians are Christians to the world, but that within that framework, great diversity is not only permissible, desireable but encouraged.

I know that that concept confronts every principle of the supremacy of the Catholic Church and its ownership of the Absolute Truth. But I do believe that this is the way the world is moving, and our faith must move with it.

Unity in diversity, strength in diversity.

Hi Carol,

Welcome back, I thought you were traveling, no?

There is absolutely no question that the Catholic Church is diverse, its arms are open to all. She is present in every corner of the world and enjoys members from every country, race, gender, sexual orientation, physical description, etc. She does great charitable work around the world often in some of the most depressed and dangerous of places.

When you speak of diversity

Unity in diversity, strength in diversity

you speak of diversity in beliefs and doctrine not membership. This is where you fall out of bed with the Church. You are a relativist and relativism is something the Church can never embrace. The Truth of Christ’s teachings don’t change to accommodate the bad behavior of man or pop culture so don’t look for the Church to approve divorce, or euthanasia, or contraception, or abortion etc. etc. etc. As proof of this look at the teachings of the RCC over the past 2000+ years…what has changed?

Your ominous comments that the Church must change or die (from an earlier thread) is also incorrect based upon the longevity of the RCC and Christ’s promise that He will be with us until the end of time. The Church has always had and always will have its share of detractors and dissidents. These times are no different than the past.
**
Diversity of membership and Unity of belief** is what sets the RCC apart from our Protestant brothers and sisters and those who embrace relativism.

Iowa Mike

P.S. Quebec wants to break with Canada and is working hard to do so…so much for unity in Canada.

 

[jmcrae]

P.S. Quebec wants to break with Canada and is working hard to do so…so much for unity in Canada.

There are also certain principles that all Canadians have to hold in common, in order to be “good Canadians.” Bad Canadians are readily identifiable - not by colour of skin or language/culture of origin, but by loyalties and attitudes.

One could question whether it would still really be Canada if Quebec were not trying to separate; they have been doing so for so long. Something would be missing if they were to suddenly decide that they want to stay.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

There are also certain principles that all Canadians have to hold in common, in order to be “good Canadians.” Bad Canadians are readily identifiable - not by colour of skin or language/culture of origin, but by loyalties and attitudes.

One could question whether it would still really be Canada if Quebec were not trying to separate; they have been doing so for so long. Something would be missing if they were to suddenly decide that they want to stay.

Mr. Jmcrae,

I’ve no argument with the above…my point is that Canada is not a model of diversity or unity.

Iowa Mike

 

[Traveller1534]

Hi Carol,

Welcome back, I thought you were traveling, no?

There is absolutely no question that the Catholic Church is diverse, its arms are open to all. She is present in every corner of the world and enjoys members from every country, race, gender, sexual orientation, physical description, etc. She does great charitable work around the world often in some of the most depressed and dangerous of places.

Here we go again referring to the church as a she. That is just as bad as all of the veneration of Mary that goes on. It disgusts me and it makes Mary weep and it is an abomination to Jesus who is the head of the church!

 

[Harsalter]

Here we go again referring to the church as a she. That is just as bad as all of the veneration of Mary that goes on. It disgusts me…

Wow, "To respect and regard with reverence (which is to ‘venerate’) “The Mother of God” disgusts you? Now that is just wrong!

Can’t believe that pleases Christ either. I know He honors his mother as God commanded us to honor our fathers & mothers. But it is too much for you to honor and respect a person that Christ Himself honors and respects?

Oohhhh-kay…

 

[Traveller1534]

Excuse me… God commanded us to venerate (worship) Mary?? I certainly think not. Mary is a saint and foremost of all saints yes, but putting her in a super-natural realm is wrong. She was a human just as we were. Not perfect and not a virgin her whole life as you are taught (and not from scripture).

 

[Harsalter]

Excuse me… God commanded us to venerate (worship) Mary?? I certainly think not. Mary is a saint and foremost of all saints yes, but putting her in a super-natural realm is wrong. She was a human just as we were. Not perfect and not a virgin her whole life as you are taught (and not from scripture).

Reading comprehension problem? Also, no one I know worships Mary, the Mother of God.

 

[Traveller1534]

No comprehension problem here Rich, I think that you should study Catholic 101 and check out the word venerate and do some research on it. Tell you what, I will share some knowledge with you; venerate means deep honor and worship. To kneel before a statue of Mary isn’t just to say “how ya doin’”. Been there done that and I regretted it. Take it from someone who was Catholic for 34 years.

 

[Harsalter]

No comprehension problem here Rich, I think that you should study Catholic 101 and check out the word venerate and do some research on it. Tell you what, I will share some knowledge with you; venerate means deep honor and worship. To kneel before a statue of Mary isn’t just to say “how ya doin’”. Been there done that and I regretted it. Take it from someone who was Catholic for 34 years.

1. You misread my post, 2) If you worshipped Mary, that is on YOU, not anyone else. 3) Venerate does NOT mean worship, or the word worship would be used.

You seem to be a disgruntled, angry Catholic. Good luck with that.

 

[Traveller1534]

Just trying to put it all in its correct form and call a spade a spade. I am an ex cradle Catholic but i have many Catholic friends and most of my extended family is Catholic. no problem

 

[Janet_S]

you speak of diversity in beliefs and doctrine not membership. This is where you fall out of bed with the Church. You are a relativist and relativism is something the Church can never embrace. The Truth of Christ’s teachings don’t change to accommodate the bad behavior of man or pop culture so don’t look for the Church to approve divorce, or euthanasia, or contraception, or abortion etc. etc. etc. As proof of this look at the teachings of the RCC over the past 2000+ years…what has changed?

Your ominous comments that the Church must change or die (from an earlier thread) is also incorrect based upon the longevity of the RCC and Christ’s promise that He will be with us until the end of time. The Church has always had and always will have its share of detractors and dissidents. These times are no different than the past.
**
Diversity of membership and Unity of belief** is what sets the RCC apart from our Protestant brothers and sisters and those who embrace relativism.

You’re right Mike. Here’s someone else who agrees with you:

“How many winds of doctrine we have known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking… The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves – thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. Every day new sects are created and what Saint Paul says about human trickery comes true, with cunning which tries to draw those into error. Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and ‘swept along by every wind of teaching’, looks like the only attitude (acceptable) to today’s standards. **We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.” **

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
4/18/05

 

[Janet_S]

Here we go again referring to the church as a she. That is just as bad as all of the veneration of Mary that goes on. It disgusts me and it makes Mary weep and it is an abomination to Jesus who is the head of the church!

I won’t get into Mary. There are many, many threads on that subject already.

Calling the Church she is the convention. The Church is the bride of Christ, and a bride is female. This is Biblically based.

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all **her **glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.” (Ephesians 5:25-27)

Also “Come here. I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” (Rev 21:9)

Christ is the head of the Church, we have no argument with you on that point. The Church is His bride. Mike was right. The Church is a she.