Do You Believe This Could Happen..

[jmcrae]

What you are saying is, “Why wasn’t everyone (in the vicinity) saved from harm?”

Since they were there, anyway, yes.

So, unless an angel acts as you would, regardless of their superior goodness and almost all-knowing perception, they can’t be REAL angels?

Well, it baffles the imagination that an Angel would act more badly or more thoughtlessly than I would, for sure!!

It goes directly to the entire question of suffering, and how God can easily be not believed in simply by stating that, “If God allows one person to suffer and another to avoid suffering He is unfair, and I won’t believe in a God who can be unfair.”

Suffering comes about because of Original Sin. God doesn’t actually save or not save people from suffering - they just either get lucky, or they don’t. If I actually thought that God saved some people from suffering, then yes, I’d have a problem with Him not saving everyone - that would be totally unfair. But He does not do this.

 

[homewardangel]

What does the story about the laborers who were all paid the same whether they worked all day, or worked for only an hour tell you?

I don’t see this as being a good comparison. People all arriving at different times throughout the day and still being paid the same is not the same as being raped.

Do you suppose that you are obligated to be told by God the full circumstances of all the people related to the story as God sees it?

No. I have never thought this. But as we go about our lives day to day being unable to see things as God sees them, I can’t be the only person who wonders what they should do differently in their lives. Not unlike the second lady in the story who would surely wonder what caused her to be raped when the first lady was not raped.

Since God owes you nothing by way of explanation, what possible reason do you have to not believe other than simply not wanting to believe?

Yes, but we are to change our actions to fit God’s will. Being mere humans, we can not see things as God does, so how are we to better live our lives to God’s will unless we seek for the "why"s in these things.

Does God seem to love the one He saved? Yes or no.

Does God seem to love the one he didn’t save? Is it possible that what happened was God’s will, meant, as always, to bring greater good from evil?

It is these comments that start many people feeling like they need not pray at all.

Terri

 

[estesbob]

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

I’m saying, the Angels knew there was a bad man in that alley. Why didn’t they stick around until everyone had passed safely, as they did with me and my Dad on a treacherously icy road one winter?

My Dad and I were saved by an Angel. Everyone who passed down that road that night made it out safely - nobody got hurt. I am not saying that the Angel has to stay there every day for the whole winter - but since he was there for us, he stuck around and helped everyone else, too - he didn’t just leave in the middle of the storm, after helping us.

I do believe in Angels - but I don’t believe that they would first save one person, and then let the next person be hurt.

Agreed. The moral of the story seems to be that the second lady was punished because she wasn’t praying.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
What you are saying is, “Why wasn’t everyone (in the vicinity) saved from harm?”

Since they were there, anyway, yes.

Quote:
So, unless an angel acts as you would, regardless of their superior goodness and almost all-knowing perception, they can’t be REAL angels?

Well, it baffles the imagination that an Angel would act more badly or more thoughtlessly than I would, for sure!!

Since an angel can’t behave badly, what does that say of your perception that these angels behaved badly?

JM, please do some study into “suffering”.

Quote:
It goes directly to the entire question of suffering, and how God can easily be not believed in simply by stating that, “If God allows one person to suffer and another to avoid suffering He is unfair, and I won’t believe in a God who can be unfair.”

Suffering comes about because of Original Sin. God doesn’t actually save or not save people from suffering - they just either get lucky, or they don’t. If I actually thought that God saved some people from suffering, then yes, I’d have a problem with Him not saving everyone - that would be totally unfair.

If you do not believe that God saves people from suffering, then you can’t believe that God saved, for example, the Israelites by His miracles in freeing them from Egypt.

If you don’t believe that, then how exactly do you call yourself a Christian?

God does save some people from suffering and allows others to suffer.

God is utterly fair,… but not fair as you know “fair” to mean, but as only He can know “fair” to mean.

But He does not do this.

Sorry chief. You are simply wrong.

You are not the arbiter of the “acceptability” of God’s, or the angel’s, ways.

Best to you in your continuing education.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Agreed. The moral of the story seems to be that the second lady was punished because she wasn’t praying.

So “God”, the big bad bully, wasn’t getting his due worship and decided to take out the person not giving him his due after paying off his little slave girl who had been so attentive to him…?

The moral of the story is therefore, “Pay up or expect to get whacked!”…?

The person saved was saved by God for whatever reason God decided to save her from physical harm for.

The person not saved was not saved for whatever reason God decided to not save her from physical harm for.

It’s ALWAYS good to pray. It’s never good to not be in a prayerful state.

But the moral one draws of a story like this says much more about where your heart is at than the “nature of angles”.

Even uplifting stories such as this one can be perverted into being anti-God.

Let’s try not to do that.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[homewardangel]

Agreed. The moral of the story seems to be that the second lady was punished because she wasn’t praying.

Here is a point of view, that I can see being just as possible as what is being presented…

Lady #1 was scared in the alley, but she was not raped. The rapist later said that she was not alone, so he left her alone. But lady #2 in the alley was raped. So why was one lady spared over the other?

well…possibly lady #2 was just as holy as lady #1 - maybe even holier so the devil happened to want to cause her grief because she wouldn’t give in to his temptations…so he didn’t tempt the rapist when the first lady walked by - but then when the 2nd lady walked by the devil really worked on the rapist to rape the 2nd lady. In hopes that the 2nd lady would feel abandoned by God and weaken to the devil’s temptations.

Thoughts???

Terri

 

[AgnosTheist]

boys, boys- dont argue over a fictional story!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I most definitely DO believe in angelic protection,
but the original story on post #1 seems curiously like
the popular Jehovah’s Witness Urban Legend about
the “brother” from Bethel (WTS headquarters) who was taking the days deposit to the bank and had to walk through an
alley. There was a big mean-looking man standing in the alley staring at him as he walked by.
As the brother was returning FROM the bank through the alley,
the police had the big mean-looking man in custody because he had just mugged an old lady who walked through the alley.
The JW “brother” asked the man,
Why didn’t you mug ME when you saw me with that big
bank deposit bag in my hands?
And the mean looking man said,
Mug YOU?? You had those two big MEN with you, shoo…

Variation on the same theme. Urban Legend.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Kevan]

boys, boys- dont argue over a fictional story!

Don’t you reckon the second one was immodestly dressed and, therefore, was to blame for the resulting attack?

Seriously, folks, the “Problem of Evil” (why do bad things happen if God is good?) is a big topic and is as old as Job, at least. There’s also the role of prayer in Christian experience: why pray if God knows better than you do? These are legitimate topics to wrangle over, but I suspect that they belong over in the Philosophy forum.

As for the OP, I’ll gladly concede that nothing in the vignette contradicts scripture. But nothing in Valke2’s vignette contradicts scripture, either. If the first story affects your faith positively, the second one has just as much right to affect it negatively. Since they counterbalance one another, they are valueless (since neither is verifiable). Hence my original contention that such tales should be ignored, and should affect your faith not a whit.

 

[jmcrae]

Since an angel can’t behave badly, what does that say of your perception that these angels behaved badly?

What I’m saying is that someone who either had a poor motive, or didn’t think it through completely, made up this story. I have encountered Angels, and they do not behave like that.

The Israelites were God’s chosen people, so He intervened in history to prevent them from being annihilated. That’s a special case. You and I, though, are not special cases. We will encounter suffering in the natural course of our daily lives, and God will allow it, even if we pray, and even if we are extra-good.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I have encountered Angels, and they do not behave like that.

Can you tell us more about it? How do you know its angels? How do they look like?

 

[jmcrae]

Can you tell us more about it? How do you know its angels? How do they look like?

They are absolutely huge - massive - bigger than mountains at one moment, and then suddenly the size of a big person, and then suddenly everything is okay, and then they are gone - they are incredibly strong. They feel exciting and joyful.

It’s difficult to describe what they actually look like, because they don’t really have a stable appearance (they are not material beings) but if you are watching for them, you can start to notice them, or at least the effects that they leave behind, from time to time.

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ I wish I can believe you. If only i’ve seen one myself.

 

[jmcrae]

^ I wish I can believe you. If only i’ve seen one myself.

Maybe some day you will. Keep a watchful eye open.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Since an angel can’t behave badly, what does that say of your perception that these angels behaved badly?

What I’m saying is that someone who either had a poor motive, or didn’t think it through completely, made up this story. I have encountered Angels, and they do not behave like that.

Wow. What can I possibly say to that…?

BUT,… I’ll give it a go…

It’s always possible to pervert a truth. Instead of looking for the positive part of a story that doesn’t contradict a truth (a dogma), some folks will say, “That part COULD be construed as going against what I believe, so the ‘good part’ of the story, the actual positive moral of it, is nonsense and I’ll call the whole story rubbish.”

But hey,… to each his own I suppose.

The Israelites were God’s chosen people, so He intervened in history to prevent them from being annihilated. That’s a special case. You and I, though, are not special cases. We will encounter suffering in the natural course of our daily lives, and God will allow it, even if we pray, and even if we are extra-good.

If you don’t think you are a special case in God’s eyes, then I can only suggest that you do a bit more research on that subject.

Remember Job? Suffering comes not from God, but is sometimes allowed by Him for a “greater good” reason.

God saving Israel from Egypt didn’t END their suffering. It was merely a piece of God’s plan that they be freed from that particular slavery.

To say that YOU personally know how angels should behave and not behave in some situation, where the described situation doesn’t obviously break dogma as to the behavior of angels, is very presumptuous indeed.

But, once again,… to each his own.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.