Do you believe this? Really?

[daler]

When the miracle of the multiplication of loaves is told in the Gospel of John, it is immediately related to the manna in the wilderness. The people saw the connection between Moses and Jesus, the manna and the miraculous bread. Jesus was the Prophet who had been promised. The people wanted to make him a king, not because he taught selfish people to share, but because he had done a stupendous miracle like their ancestors had seen in the wilderness of Sinai.

Since the two events are tied together—especially by John—then we could ask, was the manna really a miracle in the wilderness of Sinai or had Moses simply taught the people to share? Did the Israelites all sneak out of their tents at night to scatter manna around the desert? Had they been hoarding manna in their tents or under their robes?

I don’t think so. God had performed a genuine, certifiable miracle and the people knew it. And they knew it with Jesus too.

Source:

Loaves and Fishes
by Steve Ray
catholic.com/magazine/articles/loaves-and-fishes

Randy,
. Thanks for the honest comments. To me, the “manna from heaven” means that the people were fed the Word of God through the teachings of Moses, in the same sense that Jesus said: “Feed my sheep”

. We can restrict our understanding to going out and buying a bale of hay and looking for Jesus’ sheep to feed, wondering where the flock went, or maybe wait for hay and alfalfa to drop out of the sky, but it normally grows out of the earth with a little help from the sun and some rain, which are miraculous events of nature.

. Everyone believes what they choose to believe, and my brain just doesn’t see bread coming out of the sky. My old man was a farmer, and we grew a Lot! of wheat, corn, oats, and soybeans, my friend. Kinda makes dealing with reality, well… real… blood, sweat, and tears kind of real. People getting their arm chewed off in a combine kinda real. “Watch out for that horse, boy, or he’ll kick you in the head!” kind of real.

. Stories were a way of entertaining children while imparting to them some wisdom. Thats an age old method, you know, of educating children. Some may choose to remain children. What ever suits one’s comfort zone, I suppose…

.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Jesus told his disciples that, just as Jonah was in the belly of a fish for three days and three nights, Jesus would be in the “heart of the earth” for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40).

Ever thought about what he was doing during this time? Well, you don’t have to. The Catechism is pretty clear. It says he went to a temporary realm of the dead called Hades (or Sheol) to free those who had been kept there in captivity (many evangelicals believe this too).

This solves a well known Christian problem: If Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through Him, what happened to good people, such as Joshua or Abraham, who died before Jesus came to save the world? Jesus himself gives us a clue in Luke:

It appears, from Jesus story, that there are two parts of Hades, a place of torment where bad people went, and a place of non-suffering where the souls of good people went. So the tradition is that Jesus went to bring up the spirits of good people from Hades between his death and resurrection.

Here are some key quotes:

Paragraph 633 of the catechism tells us:

In a letter to his friend Evodius, Augstine said:

So the question is, do you really believe this?

If you can precision your question to as single sentence that would be helpful.
If you are asking if Catholics believe Jesus descended to the dead…of course. It is an article of faith and contained in the Catholic Creed. Everybody knows this .

If you would like to explore the theological meaning then the following from the CCC may assist:
"CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. [477] This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there. [478]

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. [479] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: [480] “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” [481] Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. [482]

634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” [483] The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” [484] Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” [485] Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” [486]

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. the earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” [487]"

Try not to get too hung up on the literal words used to communicate the theology.
For example volcanoes are not the entrance to Hell.

 

[daler]

If you can precision your question to as single sentence that would be helpful.
If you are asking if Catholics believe Jesus descended to the dead…of course. It is an article of faith and contained in the Catholic Creed. Everybody knows this .

If you would like to explore the theological meaning then the following from the CCC may assist:
"CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. [477] This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there. [478]

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. [479] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: [480] “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” [481] Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. [482]

634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” [483] The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” [484] Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” [485] Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” [486]

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. the earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” [487]"

Try not to get too hung up on the literal words used to communicate the theology.
For example volcanoes are not the entrance to Hell.

Ok, friend, so even as you point out here that the gospel was preached to the dead, and as Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead”, we can surmise that there are people who are spiritually dead while physically alive, right, and that therefore when Jesus was raised up “from the dead”, and separated from all these dead souls who, though physically walking around, were in fact spiritually dead.

His descent into hell was likewise allowing Himself to be amongst them, in their grip, even to the extent that His own blessed human form was crucified and died, yet “He” lived, and those who were members of the body of Christ were risen with Him, even though their bodies might be similarly tortured and crucified. The thing is, they were spiritually “Alive”, even as their Lord was spiritually Alive! For what is life if you are dead, spiritually?!?

And they knew this, because they knew Him, and they trusted Him and followed Him even unto the death of their bodies (God bless them!), for they learned from Him what it is to be truly Alive! But there are some who play games and seek to dominate the Word of God and possess not only the bodies of men, but their everlasting souls. For the body soon enough rots, yet if the spirit lives, whats a little thing like this puny little body made of mud anyway?!?

So the wise hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches, and the veil is rent asunder, and though they walk through the valley of death (where the spiritually dead live mere physical lives), they fear no evil, for He is with them, though they be subjected to scorn and rejection, imprisonment, torture, and physical death.

.

 

[Gorgias]

Aaah, you’re hoping others will jump in and help you it seems. Wouldn’t have to cause “thread drift”, you know. I’m just asking for a definition.

Which is followed by an objection that the definition is wrong, which is followed by a debate on whether the definition works or if the terms have any meaning whatsoever, followed by…

Thread. Drift.

No, you’re missing the point and, in fact, you didn’t address the point. It’s one or the other. Either their manifestation had physical properties which could reflect light and allow the disciples to see them with their eyes or their images were simply implanted in the brains of the disciples. You won’t pick one because either is problematic. It’s ok, I get it.

No, I simply refuse to play your game. If I say ‘physical properties,’ you’ll respond “why didn’t others see it? If they didn’t, then it didn’t happen,” and if I say ‘implanted images,’ then you’ll respond “oh – so it wasn’t real, then? It was just a mirage, indistinguishable from mental illness?”. So, in my best Pirsig imitation, I answer mu.

Not asking you to do research. I don’t think the Church believes the darkness or the dead saints to be allegorical. Can you show me otherwise?

I’m not claiming the darkness is allegorical. Moreover, I’ve already showed you an example of a scholar who thinks that the dead saints are part of an apocalyptic interpolation within Mt 27.

A failing of the sun’s light and darkness over all the land for 3 hours at noon does not suggest something like a thundercloud.

True; yet, it also does not require the suggestion of some minimal area over which the darkness was experienced.

C’mon Gorgias, I think we’ve agreed that it would have been at least over Jerusalem right?

That’s a reasonable guess, but not one that any text imposes on us. So, no, we haven’t agreed upon it. Sorry.

So, if it was over Jerusalem and there were many Romans in Jerusalem, including officials, it’s pretty doubtful this astounding, apocalyptic, earth shattering event were the sun’s light failed and there was darkness over all the land demonstrating that a god had died

That’s just it, though. For the people at the crucifixion, the darkness was a sure sign of Jesus’ divinity; for others, though, it was (at best) a curious darkness. There’s nothing about ‘darkness’ that explicitly means ‘a god has died’; this is the meaning that the witnesses to the crucifixion, who were witnessing the juxtaposition of a number of events, concluded.

 

[Gorgias]

I simply believe what the Scriptures tell us - that Moses and Elijah entered into the afterlife in their bodies - just as the Tradition teaches us.

Actually, Moses died and was buried: “there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said; and he was buried in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; to this day no one knows the place of his burial.” (Deut 34:5-6)

Thus, they came to Jesus in their bodies

They came in a vision of their bodies, but the text doesn’t assert that they were physically human in the same way that we are today, right?

 

[Gorgias]

To me, the “manna from heaven” means that the people were fed the Word of God through the teachings of Moses

That’s a nice spiritualization of the text, but that certainly isn’t what the text is asserting! The Israelites complained to Moses, “But you have led us into this wilderness to make this whole assembly die of famine” (Ex 16:3). That isn’t a complaint that they weren’t getting enough teaching – it was a complaint that they were dying of physical starvation! God promised them ‘bread from heaven’ and Moses said to the people, “the LORD gives you meat to eat in the evening and in the morning your fill of bread” (Ex 16:8). This, too, speaks of literal, physical bread, not spiritual teachings!

Moreover, if it were simply a matter of spiritual teachings, then the command to gather double on the day before the sabbath (in order to avoid doing work on the Sabbath) makes no sense: “[God said,] ‘Each day the people are to go out and gather their daily portion; thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not. On the sixth day, however, when they prepare what they bring in, let it be twice as much as they gather on the other days.’” (Ex 16:4-5) Moreover, explaining the ‘double portion’ commandment, God said to Moses, “Take note! The LORD has given you the sabbath. That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. Each of you stay where you are and let no one go out on the seventh day. After that the people rested on the seventh day” (Ex 16:29-30). Now… if it were only a matter of spiritual teaching, then it would make no sense whatsoever to collect a double portion on the day before the sabbath; moreover, it presents a serious problem for your interpretation to suggest that the people received spiritual teaching on every day except the sabbath…

Everyone believes what they choose to believe, and my brain just doesn’t see bread coming out of the sky.

It didn’t; it was on the ground: “In the morning there was a layer of dew all about the camp, and when the layer of dew evaporated, fine flakes were on the surface of the wilderness, fine flakes like hoarfrost on the ground” (Ex 16:13-14)

Stories were a way of entertaining children while imparting to them some wisdom. Thats an age old method, you know, of educating children. Some may choose to remain children. What ever suits one’s comfort zone, I suppose…

Hmm. Jesus is a ‘child,’ then? After all, he affirmed that the manna was a physical reality: “Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died” (John 6:49). In any case, that’s really charitable; you’ve just made an (unsupported) assertion, and then called us ‘children’ because we disagree with your assertion. Nice.

 

[daler]

That’s a nice spiritualization of the text, but that certainly isn’t what the text is asserting! The Israelites complained to Moses, “But you have led us into this wilderness to make this whole assembly die of famine” (Ex 16:3). That isn’t a complaint that they weren’t getting enough teaching – it was a complaint that they were dying of physical starvation! God promised them ‘bread from heaven’ and Moses said to the people, “the LORD gives you meat to eat in the evening and in the morning your fill of bread” (Ex 16:8). This, too, speaks of literal, physical bread, not spiritual teachings!

Moreover, if it were simply a matter of spiritual teachings, then the command to gather double on the day before the sabbath (in order to avoid doing work on the Sabbath) makes no sense: “[God said,] ‘Each day the people are to go out and gather their daily portion; thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not. On the sixth day, however, when they prepare what they bring in, let it be twice as much as they gather on the other days.’” (Ex 16:4-5) Moreover, explaining the ‘double portion’ commandment, God said to Moses, “Take note! The LORD has given you the sabbath. That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. Each of you stay where you are and let no one go out on the seventh day. After that the people rested on the seventh day” (Ex 16:29-30). Now… if it were only a matter of spiritual teaching, then it would make no sense whatsoever to collect a double portion on the day before the sabbath; moreover, it presents a serious problem for your interpretation to suggest that the people received spiritual teaching on every day except the sabbath…

It didn’t; it was on the ground: “In the morning there was a layer of dew all about the camp, and when the layer of dew evaporated, fine flakes were on the surface of the wilderness, fine flakes like hoarfrost on the ground” (Ex 16:13-14)

Hmm. Jesus is a ‘child,’ then? After all, he affirmed that the manna was a physical reality: “Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died” (John 6:49). In any case, that’s really charitable; you’ve just made an (unsupported) assertion, and then called us ‘children’ because we disagree with your assertion. Nice.

Sorry,
. I don’t meant to belittle the view you hold, but am suggesting that all of us start out with the minds of children who essentially demand that their imaginative appetites be fed, and that this is necessary for development of the mental faculties, like stretching our bodies. We need to stretch our minds as well.

. So a problem presents itself somewhere between these stages wherein we demand something like Santa Clause stories and how the presents actually get beneath the tree, and while we have evidence of the presents, we have no proof of Santa coming through the chimney. It gets more complicated with electric heat.

. So we are left with the demand from our elders that we simply accept and “believe” irrational suppositions which are unacceptable to the complex mind of an adult. This includes pulling rabbits out of hat and bread and fish out of the air, even when the latter story is introduced with a moral principal: “Take what ye have and share”

. Now I mean not to insult anyone in an adult stage who still believes that Santa visits every house on the planet in a single night with infinite presents, but am simply saying that the same rational mind which rejects this story must question other “miracles” as literal accounts. We tend to be “forced” by traditions and dogmas into “fessing” up nonsensical statements to affirm that we are no threat to the herd. Some of us are not inclined to perpetuate the myth of Santa Claus, while yet appreciating the beauty of the story and its value for children.

. As disagreeable as this process is, the same logic applies to pulling fish out of the air as presents down a chimney. We later accept the myth of Santa and its reasons in traditions. Why, then, is it so offensive to suggest a rational approach to the teachings of Christ as a moral advocate of social consciousness and responsibility, charity, and the like, which is so in keeping with the story of the Good Samaritan, and the like. Why perpetuates the “need” for miraculous interpretation? Is it simply a lack of faith? “I refuse to believe in the Lord unless He performs magic sufficient to please me?”

. This gives a person “power” over the Lord, does it not. He has to fulfill “my expectations” in order for me to accept Him and honor Him. There is something deficient in this approach, in my estimation. “A wicked and adulterous generation asketh for a sign”, said Jesus, yet people still interpret the Holy Books with just so much of that, leveling the charges of “heretic” against others who hold to rational investigation and interpretation of stories and myths handed down.

. Ever heard of Paul Bunyan?

.

 

[GEddie]

Sorry,
. I don’t meant to belittle the view you hold, but am suggesting that all of us start out with the minds of children who essentially demand that their imaginative appetites be fed, and that this is necessary for development of the mental faculties, like stretching our bodies. We need to stretch our minds as well.

. So a problem presents itself somewhere between these stages wherein we demand something like Santa Clause stories and how the presents actually get beneath the tree, and while we have evidence of the presents, we have no proof of Santa coming through the chimney. It gets more complicated with electric heat.

. So we are left with the demand from our elders that we simply accept and “believe” irrational suppositions which are unacceptable to the complex mind of an adult. This includes pulling rabbits out of hat and bread and fish out of the air, even when the latter story is introduced with a moral principal: “Take what ye have and share”

. Now I mean not to insult anyone in an adult stage who still believes that Santa visits every house on the planet in a single night with infinite presents, but am simply saying that the same rational mind which rejects this story must question other “miracles” as literal accounts. We tend to be “forced” by traditions and dogmas into “fessing” up nonsensical statements to affirm that we are no threat to the herd. Some of us are not inclined to perpetuate the myth of Santa Claus, while yet appreciating the beauty of the story and its value for children.

. As disagreeable as this process is, the same logic applies to pulling fish out of the air as presents down a chimney. We later accept the myth of Santa and its reasons in traditions. Why, then, is it so offensive to suggest a rational approach to the teachings of Christ as a moral advocate of social consciousness and responsibility, charity, and the like, which is so in keeping with the story of the Good Samaritan, and the like. Why perpetuates the “need” for miraculous interpretation? Is it simply a lack of faith? “I refuse to believe in the Lord unless He performs magic sufficient to please me?”

. This gives a person “power” over the Lord, does it not. He has to fulfill “my expectations” in order for me to accept Him and honor Him. There is something deficient in this approach, in my estimation. “A wicked and adulterous generation asketh for a sign”, said Jesus, yet people still interpret the Holy Books with just so much of that, leveling the charges of “heretic” against others who hold to rational investigation and interpretation of stories and myths handed down.

. Ever heard of Paul Bunyan?

.

The problem with that approach is that Santa Claus is not in any way a guide to one’s life, at least beyond early childhood; while hard-core believers will say, like Saint Paul, “life…to me,…is Christ.”

But if His message is reduced to social pablum about turning cheeks and helping neighbors, then there is really no message at all, and certainly no “good news.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[daler]

The problem with that approach is that Santa Claus is not in any way a guide to one’s life, at least beyond early childhood; while hard-core believers will say, like Saint Paul, “life…to me,…is Christ.”

But if His message is reduced to social pablum about turning cheeks and helping neighbors, then there is really no message at all, and certainly no “good news.”

ICXC NIKA

GEddie,
. I am in no wise lessening the station of Christ by attempting to understand the truth of the Gospels. To me, it is His teachings that are a guidance unto humanity, and we still need to see that His teachings come from God, as He has come from God to give us those teachings.

. All I am suggesting is that historically people have placed magic above reality and interpretations and traditions which include separation from reality seem to appease a lower appetite in men which in fact rebels against the sobering truths which He was sent to bring. People prefer a kind of drunken stupor to wakefulness, for it allows them to continue on the path they are on and remain in a state of slumber, whereas He repeatedly said: “Watch!”

. I don’t think people are watching. Rather, they content themselves with a childlike dream state, thinking that they have fulfilled their duties to attentiveness. There is a difference between Disneyland and the Kingdom of God. One indulges our fantasies, while the other requires us to open our eyes and see reality as it is, even if this means going against the herd and breaking out from the contentedness and calm of the pack.

. In examining certain traditions those who delve beneath the surface find truths which transcend the ordinary realm of being and point to a glorious Kingdom which “is at hand”, but not realized in the world at large. It seems to me that separating truth from out of the bulk of the stories is like carving the meat of meaning from off the bones of myths, and that if we are to digest real meaning we need to sink our teeth into these stories a bit further than the fur on the skin, and not to be afraid to share our thoughts in the process.
.

 

[Aloysium]

Sorry, I don’t meant to belittle the view you hold . . .

You 'd prefer to be kicking down Christmas trees?

 

[jmcrae]

GEddie,
. I am in no wise lessening the station of Christ by attempting to understand the truth of the Gospels. To me, it is His teachings that are a guidance unto humanity, and we still need to see that His teachings come from God, as He has come from God to give us those teachings.

Adam and Eve knew how to love one another; otherwise none of the rest of us would be here. The Greeks had law and civilization long before Jesus came, so if the only purpose of Jesus’ life was to give us what we already had, then there was no reason for Him to die on the cross - it was a complete waste of both His time and ours.

All I am suggesting is that historically people have placed magic above reality and interpretations and traditions which include separation from reality seem to appease a lower appetite in men which in fact rebels against the sobering truths which He was sent to bring. People prefer a kind of drunken stupor to wakefulness, for it allows them to continue on the path they are on and remain in a state of slumber, whereas He repeatedly said: “Watch!”

I’ve never been more alive than since I figured out that miracles are real.

I don’t think people are watching. Rather, they content themselves with a childlike dream state, thinking that they have fulfilled their duties to attentiveness. There is a difference between Disneyland and the Kingdom of God. One indulges our fantasies, while the other requires us to open our eyes and see reality as it is, even if this means going against the herd and breaking out from the contentedness and calm of the pack.

. In examining certain traditions those who delve beneath the surface find truths which transcend the ordinary realm of being and point to a glorious Kingdom which “is at hand”, but not realized in the world at large. It seems to me that separating truth from out of the bulk of the stories is like carving the meat of meaning from off the bones of myths, and that if we are to digest real meaning we need to sink our teeth into these stories a bit further than the fur on the skin, and not to be afraid to share our thoughts in the process.
.

Jesus said, unless you have faith like a child, you will never see the Kingdom.

 

[daler]

Adam and Eve knew how to love one another; otherwise none of the rest of us would be here. The Greeks had law and civilization long before Jesus came, so if the only purpose of Jesus’ life was to give us what we already had, then there was no reason for Him to die on the cross - it was a complete waste of both His time and ours.

I’ve never been more alive than since I figured out that miracles are real.

Jesus said, unless you have faith like a child, you will never see the Kingdom.

Jm,
. I love Christmas Trees and especially all the Lights. It takes me back to when I was a kid. The Sprit of Christmas is wonderful. How can that Spirit be year around, and all around the world?

. The trouble is that humanity is not in harmony with the Spirit of Christmas. Why is this so? Why all the wars between Christian nations over the centuries? Where was the Spirit of Christ during the Inquisitions? Why were all those Treaties written “In the year of our Lord, 1868…” etc, etc, etc… and Never kept?!?

. The miracle of loving thy neighbor as thyself requires that we stop killing each other like there’s nothing else better to do. To me, the miracles are gonna be when the bombs stop falling from the sky!

. Merry Christmas!
.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

GEddie, I am in no wise lessening the station of Christ by attempting to understand the truth of the Gospels. To me, it is His teachings that are a guidance unto humanity, and we still need to see that His teachings come from God, as He has come from God to give us those teachings.

Daler, my understanding is that the man you see as a prophet, Bahá’u’lláh, claimed to speak as a “manifestation of God,” and to have fulfilled in some sense, either literally or symbolically, the messianic prophecies of numerous different older faiths from which he borrowed. It is also my understanding that he dogmatically claimed that the “essence” of God will never descend into the human world (on what basis Bahá’u’lláh believed this, other than his own personal proclamation is unclear). As Jesus did, in fact, state that He had done so, and will do so again, in those very same Gospels cited by Bahá’u’lláh, I have to ask why do Bahá’ís accept some claims from those texts, but reject others that conflict with the claims made by the man who founded their religion? My understanding is that Bahá’u’lláh’s followers, including Shoghi Effendi, have claimed that only parts of the Gospel can be trusted, and naturally, only Bahá’u’lláh could be trusted to discern this. On what basis should we credit Bahá’u’lláh for this insight?

This seems to be quite a different matter than your religion’s belief that each “manifestation” had a different spiritual message for each time. Bahá’u’lláh would instead seem to have claimed that the different manifestations of God would have told lies…unless one is willing to pick and choose the sections of the Gospels that one wishes to cite, to avoid a conflict with what your founder said. Such are the dangers of a syncretic faith.

The Bahá’ís I have met seem to be, by and large, mostly good and gentle people, but their attempted borrowing from the Judaic or Christian faiths, or trying to shoehorn other disparate pre-existing faiths based on the moral similarities of Natural Law into a relativistic faith, just don’t seem to provide a cohesive whole, and misrepresents the original teachings of those faiths.

All I am suggesting is that historically people have placed magic above reality and interpretations and traditions which include separation from reality seem to appease a lower appetite in men which in fact rebels against the sobering truths which He was sent to bring. People prefer a kind of drunken stupor to wakefulness, for it allows them to continue on the path they are on and remain in a state of slumber, whereas He repeatedly said: “Watch!”

Can you please provide some examples of this to help us better understand your argument? As you are a member of a faith which also (if my limited understanding of your beliefs is correct) also believes in a God that and has intervened through supernatural means in the course of events…May I ask you why you believe your beliefs are “realistic” whereas mine are “magical?” On what basis or authority do you make this claim?

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don’t think people are watching. Rather, they content themselves with a childlike dream state, thinking that they have fulfilled their duties to attentiveness. There is a difference between Disneyland and the Kingdom of God. One indulges our fantasies, while the other requires us to open our eyes and see reality as it is, even if this means going against the herd and breaking out from the contentedness and calm of the pack. In examining certain traditions those who delve beneath the surface find truths which transcend the ordinary realm of being and point to a glorious Kingdom which “is at hand”, but not realized in the world at large. It seems to me that separating truth from out of the bulk of the stories is like carving the meat of meaning from off the bones of myths, and that if we are to digest real meaning we need to sink our teeth into these stories a bit further than the fur on the skin, and not to be afraid to share our thoughts in the process.
.

Sounds more than a little Gnostic to me, as does the Bahá’í (and Manichean) insistence that descent to the physical state would somehow demean God (to whom?). There is always an elitist pleasure to be found in thinking, like the Gnostics, that we are heirs to a knowledge which hoi polloi don’t possess, and that only those who follow certain teachings are truly spiritually “awake” - a claim that Gurdjieff was also fond of making at roughly the same time as Bahá’u’lláh, and that L. Ron Hubbard would make later in the 20th century. These teachings usually credit the seeker with the intelligence to discard old ideas, but don’t allow the seeker to deviate from the teachings of the group’s founder…

The religion Bahá’u’lláh created has always seemed like something a decent and thoughtful man would create, if he decided to create a “rational” religion. It’s certainly hard to argue with the 12 precepts of your faith, which read like a model U.N. resolution as proposed by a very earnest group of A.P. students, much like Unitarianism, or Thomas Jefferson’s redaction of the Bible. All approach the truth, as they are based on the Natural Law engraved in our hearts, and as they use bits and pieces of divine revelation, but ultimately seem to me to be lacking in the fullness of Truth, in the way human-made endeavors usually are. To quote an atheist, the universe is stranger than we can imagine, and the created religions of the 19th and 20th centuries - not only Bahá’u’lláh’s religion, but also Christian Science, Scientology, and so forth, lack the essential strangeness and wonder that we see manifested in God’s universe.

I can accept the teachings of Jesus as the Son of God, based on the example of His life, the miracles He performed, His resurrection, and the revolutionary nature of His message, which continues to echo down through the millennia. His teachings were the fulfillment of God’s teachings as provided to the Jews, but His message was the radical flowering of God’s covenant. The teachings of Bahá’u’lláh were just based on a number of social causes that were circulating throughout the world in the 19th century. Bahá’u’lláh performed no miracles, died of what was apparently a respiratory infection, remains dead, and made historical claims that appear to have been spurious. I don’t doubt that he was a good man, and was trying to preach a message that seemed good and right to him, but I certainly can’t give credit to the idea that he was a manifestation of God.

 

[zz912]

Sorry,
. I don’t meant to belittle the view you hold, but am suggesting that all of us start out with the minds of children who essentially demand that their imaginative appetites be fed, and that this is necessary for development of the mental faculties, like stretching our bodies. We need to stretch our minds as well.

While you may not intend to give offense, your post here is very offensive.

. So a problem presents itself somewhere between these stages wherein we demand something like Santa Clause stories and how the presents actually get beneath the tree, and while we have evidence of the presents, we have no proof of Santa coming through the chimney. It gets more complicated with electric heat.

. So we are left with the demand from our elders that we simply accept and “believe” irrational suppositions which are unacceptable to the complex mind of an adult. This includes pulling rabbits out of hat and bread and fish out of the air, even when the latter story is introduced with a moral principal: “Take what ye have and share”

“Irrational suppositions” like a man resurrecting from the dead after three days? The Resurrection is a FAAAAAR greater miracle than the feeding of the 4,000. So under your view, we should discount and discredit this miracle too, correct? What about the miracles of Bahaii?

. Now I mean not to insult anyone in an adult stage who still believes that Santa visits every house on the planet in a single night with infinite presents, but am simply saying that the same rational mind which rejects this story must question other “miracles” as literal accounts. We tend to be “forced” by traditions and dogmas into “fessing” up nonsensical statements to affirm that we are no threat to the herd. Some of us are not inclined to perpetuate the myth of Santa Claus, while yet appreciating the beauty of the story and its value for children.

Again, which miracles should we discount and which ones should we believe? And what is the measuring stick we should use to differentiate the two?

. As disagreeable as this process is, the same logic applies to pulling fish out of the air as presents down a chimney. We later accept the myth of Santa and its reasons in traditions. Why, then, is it so offensive to suggest a rational approach to the teachings of Christ as a moral advocate of social consciousness and responsibility, charity, and the like, which is so in keeping with the story of the Good Samaritan, and the like. Why perpetuates the “need” for miraculous interpretation? Is it simply a lack of faith? “I refuse to believe in the Lord unless He performs magic sufficient to please me?”

Because you don’t listen to the “teachings” of other people who claim to be God unless they can give some signs or assurances of their reality and nature. The message of Jesus is NOT the moral teachings, but WHO HE IS. The other teachings are the extensions of that message.

. This gives a person “power” over the Lord, does it not. He has to fulfill “my expectations” in order for me to accept Him and honor Him. There is something deficient in this approach, in my estimation. “A wicked and adulterous generation asketh for a sign”, said Jesus, yet people still interpret the Holy Books with just so much of that, leveling the charges of “heretic” against others who hold to rational investigation and interpretation of stories and myths handed down.

. Ever heard of Paul Bunyan?

The miracles of feeding the 4,000 wasn’t asked for. Jesus gave it willingly. When it happens, we should believe it. Not make up pretend explanations about people hiding 3+ days worth of food under their clothes.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . The message of Jesus is NOT the moral teachings, but WHO HE IS. The other teachings are the extensions of that message. . .

He is not just a teacher, He is our Saviour.

 

[daler]

Daler, my understanding is that the man you see as a prophet, Bahá’u’lláh, claimed to speak as a “manifestation of God,” and to have fulfilled in some sense, either literally or symbolically, the messianic prophecies of numerous…

, I have to ask why do Bahá’ís accept some claims from those texts, but reject others that conflict with the claims made by the man who founded their religion? My understanding is that Bahá’u’lláh’s followers, including Shoghi Effendi, have claimed that only parts of the Gospel can be trusted, and naturally, only Bahá’u’lláh could be trusted to discern this. On what basis should we credit Bahá’u’lláh for this insight?

This seems to be quite a different matter than your religion’s belief that each “manifestation” had a different spiritual message for each time. Bahá’u’lláh would instead seem to have claimed that the different manifestations of God would have told lies…unless one is willing to pick and choose the sections of the Gospels that one wishes to cite, to avoid a conflict with what your founder said. Such are the dangers of a syncretic faith.

Can you please provide some examples of this to help us better understand your argument? As you are a member of a faith which also (if my limited understanding of your beliefs is correct) also believes in a God that and has intervened through supernatural means in the course of events…May I ask you why you believe your beliefs are “realistic” whereas mine are “magical?” On what basis or authority do you make this claim?

Mike,
. Thank you for the amount of thought you put into this and the sincerity with which you speak. I’m not quite sure where to start, as you’ve said a lot, but wish to tell you that I was raised Christian and still believe in Christ, and that the evolution of my beliefs stem from life amongst the Sioux, an interest in other world religions, and find a common denominator underlying them, with the understanding, too, that humans do have a way of coloring history here and there.

. The essence of the Gospels is true. The Old Testament Prophets and Jesus are sent from God to teach and guide humanity, and act as Divine Physicians to heal a divided humanity which, in this day, are being gathered into the One Fold and the One Shepherd promised in the Holy Books. All the great religions await “their” Promised One:

Jews await the Lord of Hosts
Christians await the Return of Christ
Zoroastrians (Magi) await Shah Bahram
Hindus await the Tenth incarnation of Krsna
Buddhists await Maitreye
Muslims await the Mahdi
Native Americans await their Promised One

. Is there a Single One from God Who fulfills all of these Messianic expectations?

. Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah to be the Promised One of all religions…

. How can this be substantiated when there are clearly metaphorical contexts of a miraculous Being unless literal expectations are reasonably set aside, i.e. “Out of His Mouth shall proceed a two-edged sword” ?

. We can cling to the magical side of the ancient texts, but they may in fact be a veil to the real purpose for which God sends His Prophets and Messengers, which is to elevate the hearts of men and bring about that which is latent within us. A single human goes through many stages, from fetus to baby to adolescent to adult. The collective unfoldment of humanity requires a spiritual Sun to release our inherent potential as spiritual beings, bogged down in the animal side of our nature, fighting over territory, dogma, and inherited beliefs.

. The issue with oral traditions which are passed down long before they are recorded, often going from culture to culture amidst language and meaning changes, is that what is understood in one cultural context is not always understood as the original. We also, in the modern times, have scientific knowledge and with educated minds, think logically and can question the authenticity of such things as “Jonah being swallowed by a big fish for three days”. It is too much to ask a rational person to accept a literal interpretation from people when clearly, “storytelling” is as much a part of being human as biology.

. Thus, knowing that indeed every culture on earth has used storytelling to impart wisdom through myths should be considered when the Jewish culture passed down its traditions. The reluctance of a child to give up a security blanket attests to the nature of psychology, whether that blanket be woven of fabric or words.

. The Manifestations do tell “lies”. Their means of teaching at certain stages employed, for example, the parables of Jesus, which require people to “think” and consider things in ways that test them. There is also the threat of entrenched religious authority to contend with, and every single Prophet of God has suffered at the hands of the divines. Coded meaning is at once understood by close followers and unseen by certain others, preoccupied with life’s external pleasures.

. The Baha’i Faith is not syncretic, but rather sprung from the very Source of all Revelation. Until one takes a serious and closer look, examining with one’s own eyes, it may appear so on the surface. It is far, far deeper than anything any human mind could construct.

. The power of the religion of God does not rest upon miracles which cannot be proven, but upon the power of the creative Word which infuses into the hearts of men a transformative power that effects a change in the individual and society. “No man spake like Him.” Therein lies the power of the Word of God!

. Those who recognize Baha’u’llah in this day do so primarily because of the effect of His words. He is regarded as the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise that “When He, the Sprit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth…”

.

 

[GEddie]

Bahaullah cannot be " the promised one of all religions," as Christianity has no “promised one” other than Jesus Christ Himself when He returns.

So in at least one regard, that claim does not work.

I won’t say any more, as I do not care to argue anybody’s beliefs with them.

ICXC NIKA

 

[daler]

Sounds more than a little Gnostic to me, as does the Bahá’í (and Manichean) insistence that descent to the physical state would somehow demean God (to whom?).

The religion Bahá’u’lláh created has always seemed like something a decent and thoughtful man would create, if he decided to create a “rational” religion. It’s certainly hard to argue with the 12 precepts of your faith, which read like a model U.N. resolution…

I can accept the teachings of Jesus as the Son of God, based on the example of His life, the miracles He performed, His resurrection, and the revolutionary nature of His message, which continues to echo down through the millennia. His teachings were the fulfillment of God’s teachings as provided to the Jews, but His message was the radical flowering of God’s covenant. The teachings of Bahá’u’lláh were just based on a number of social causes that were circulating throughout the world in the 19th century. Bahá’u’lláh performed no miracles, died of what was apparently a respiratory infection, remains dead, and made historical claims that appear to have been spurious. I don’t doubt that he was a good man, and was trying to preach a message that seemed good and right to him, but I certainly can’t give credit to the idea that he was a manifestation of God.

Mike,
. It isn’t gnosticism to say that God is above corporeal existence, egress and regress. The understanding is that of the sun which does not physically come down to earth, but is always infinitely beyond human contact. The perfect mirror reflects the sun perfectly, but remains a mirror. The Manifestations are these Perfect Mirrors which reflect God’s Light and will, the means by which He communicates to mankind.

. “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah #20

. What we may today recognize as a “rational religion”, was very radical 150 years ago, and has so changed the baseline of human thinking that now we begin to recognize it as such. While imprisoned and during the 40 years of His exile, Baha’u’llah composed Tablets on every theme, without pause of the pen or reflection, with no need to peruse any human learning.

. While there were miracles attributed to Baha’u’llah, healing, etc, they are not used as proofs. His purpose was not a magic show geared towards entertaining us, but to realign us with God’s will.

. “Beginning in September 1867, Bahá’u’lláh wrote a series of letters to the world leaders of His time, addressing, among others, Emperor Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, Kaiser Wilhelm I, Tsar Alexander II of Russia, Emperor Franz Joseph, Pope Pius IX, Sultan Abdul-Aziz, and the Persian ruler, Nasiri’d-Din Shah.”

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-summons.html

. “O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” — Kitáb-i-Aqdas.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/je/BNE/bne-182.html

. Note the historic changes, the downfall of Napoleon within two years, the fall of the Sultan, the Shahs, no more Czars, the above letter to the Kaiser. What is behind all of this is the fulfillment of the prophecies of Jeremiah Chapter 49:35…

36 Against Elam I will bring the four winds
From the four quarters of heaven,
And scatter them toward all those winds;
There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go.
37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies
And before those who seek their life.
I will bring disaster upon them,
My fierce anger,’ says the Lord;
‘And I will send the sword after them
Until I have consumed them.
38 I will set My throne in Elam,
And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the Lord.

. Elam is ancient Persia, or SW Iran, where the Bab appeared in 1844, “set His throne”, and was martyred in 1850, for heralding the coming of Baha’u’llah, Who indeed destroyed the king and the princes. The “outcasts” are the banished Baha’is, refugees sent to every nation. Never has this prophecy been fulfilled prior to His coming. Daniel had his great vision in Elam, concerning the 2300 days (years) ending in 1844, which is also 1260 AH, also foretold in Revelation.

. There is infinitely more than this…

.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

We can cling to the magical side of the ancient texts, but they may in fact be a veil to the real purpose for which God sends His Prophets and Messengers, which is to elevate the hearts of men and bring about that which is latent within us. A single human goes through many stages, from fetus to baby to adolescent to adult. The collective unfoldment of humanity requires a spiritual Sun to release our inherent potential as spiritual beings, bogged down in the animal side of our nature, fighting over territory, dogma, and inherited beliefs.

We’ll have to agree to disagree about which of our respective beliefs are “dogma,” and "which are “divine revelation” or simply “inherited beliefs.”

The issue with oral traditions which are passed down long before they are recorded, often going from culture to culture amidst language and meaning changes, is that what is understood in one cultural context is not always understood as the original. We also, in the modern times, have scientific knowledge and with educated minds, think logically and can question the authenticity of such things as “Jonah being swallowed by a big fish for three days”. It is too much to ask a rational person to accept a literal interpretation from people when clearly, “storytelling” is as much a part of being human as biology.

Some Catholics accept a literal interpretation of the OT, others do not do so in all sections. Sure, the tale of Jonah could be metaphorical or lyrical in style (which makes its truths no less truthful, as you agree.) On the other hand, a God that can create and end a universe would not find it difficult to create a giant creature that could contain a man. It’s not a linchpin of my faith either way. I’ll know for sure after I die.

I’d have to say that your description of how the Scriptures were recorded and transmitted by the Jews and the early Christians as simply “oral traditions” is an inaccurate description, based on what we know of the people of their time and the standards of oral transmissions in those cultures.

Thus, knowing that indeed every culture on earth has used storytelling to impart wisdom through myths should be considered when the Jewish culture passed down its traditions. The reluctance of a child to give up a security blanket attests to the nature of psychology, whether that blanket be woven of fabric or words. The Manifestations do tell “lies”. Their means of teaching at certain stages employed, for example, the parables of Jesus, which require people to “think” and consider things in ways that test them. There is also the threat of entrenched religious authority to contend with, and every single Prophet of God has suffered at the hands of the divines. Coded meaning is at once understood by close followers and unseen by certain others, preoccupied with life’s external pleasures.

If I use parables to describe some life lessons to my kids, that doesn’t mean everything I say is a parable, and you may be confusing the comprehension of children and adults. Storytelling is not lying. We don’t generally call Bernard Malamud, James Joyce, or Ray Bradbury “liars.” They are imparting truths through stories, and it is plainly obvious where the stories end, and the truth begins in our lives. Jesus was similarly quite clear on when he was telling a parable or speaking metaphorically, when he was pronouncing the literal truth contained in the moral of a parable, and when he was speaking literally (as in John 6), as he usually made it quite clear by saying, “Amen” [literally, “I tell you the truth.”] in such instances.

The Baha’i Faith is not syncretic, but rather sprung from the very Source of all Revelation. Until one takes a serious and closer look, examining with one’s own eyes, it may appear so on the surface. It is far, far deeper than anything any human mind could construct.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I’m not referencing all your statements, not because I wish to ignore them or because I think they are without merit, but because I really have no comment on them. You accept one source of revelation and I another, so arguing such points is really…well, pointless.

I understand that you have a faith and accept the words of your religion’s founders on these issues, and while I hope and pray that you will eventually move towards the fullness of Faith, I understand that you and I currently disagree on what that is.

I would note the problem of using proof-texts from the Bible to support a particular claim of Bahá’u’lláh, while ignoring statements that contradict his other claims is problematic. My understanding (again, limited) is that your religion believes the universe has no beginning and extends into the past infinitely. This clearly conflicts with Genesis (not to mention the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and our current scientific understanding of the origins of the universe). To deny the numerous conflicts between scripture and Bahá’u’lláh’s personal interpretations require some exegetical contortions - one must claim that the Bible is unreliable, and it doesn’t seem reasonable to me that only a 19th century Persian man held the Master Key to realizing what was accurate and what wasn’t.