Do you believe with utmost certainty that unbaptized babies go to Heaven?

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PRmerger said:
Well, don’t forget about the other obvious option: he *was *baptized.

Not everything that happened to the Good Thief is recorded in Scripture.
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Are you referring to the baptism of John? The baptism of John is not the same as sacramental Christian baptism.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Well, heaven was not available until Jesus.

CCC 1026

Before in CCC 633 we see:

In light of this, when we take into consideration Christ’s statement of ““unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

It is then understood that all who enter the Kingdom of God have been born of water and spirit.

I don’t know of any exceptions to this statement that includes an absolute: “unless”.

In the absence of baptismal water, there must be then another form of baptism if one is to enter the Kingdom of God.

Christ said to the thief: “today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” There must be present a form of being born of water. Since the thief did not die as a martyr, the only other option I see is “desire”.

Peace,

ETA: You can find Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma free online.
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And don’t forget the other obvious option: Jesus in front of the good thief was acting on his capacity of Judge, hence he passed fair and just judgment.

Several of us have stated that the question of what happened to babies not baotiEd is something that was not revealed to us hence the church doesn’t know but Jesus you can be completely sure that he knows. Jesus too is a fair and just judge and his mercy is infite. From this is that we hope that Jesus, just like he passed fair and just judgment on the thief will also extend his mercy to unbaptized babies.
 
marymary1975 said:
And don’t forget the other obvious option: Jesus in front of the good thief was acting on his capacity of Judge, hence he passed fair and just judgment.

Several of us have stated that the question of what happened to babies not baotiEd is something that was not revealed to us hence the church doesn’t know but Jesus you can be completely sure that he knows. Jesus too is a fair and just judge and his mercy is infite. From this is that we hope that Jesus, just like he passed fair and just judgment on the thief will also extend his mercy to unbaptized babies.
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Right.

But looking at what we do have, we can see, reasonably I humbly think, where the dogma of “Baptism of Desire” comes from, in a minuscule way.

God’s Grace and Mercy is above all a gift. After all, He did say: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” ;)🙂
 
RyanBlack said:
Are you referring to the baptism of John? The baptism of John is not the same as sacramental Christian baptism.
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No. The baptism of St.Dismas.

Scripture is silent on this. So those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief went to heaven without being baptized” are adding to Scripture.

Similarly, those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief was baptized!” are adding to Scripture.

We simply do not know. Thus, it is* an option* to say “He was baptized” or “He wasn’t baptized”, as both are entirely possible, given the silence of Scripture on this.
 
PRmerger said:
No. The baptism of St.Dismas.

Scripture is silent on this. So those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief went to heaven without being baptized” are adding to Scripture.

Similarly, those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief was baptized!” are adding to Scripture.

We simply do not know. Thus, it is* an option* to say “He was baptized” or “He wasn’t baptized”, as both are entirely possible, given the silence of Scripture on this.
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I think the point is that there was no Christian baptism until after St. Dismas was already on heaven. Do you see why I say that?
 
dmar198 said:
I think the point is that there was no Christian baptism until after St. Dismas was already on heaven. Do you see why I say that?
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Do I see why you say that there was no Christian baptism until after St. Dismas?

Well, I know Scripture is silent on that.
 
PRmerger said:
No. The baptism of St.Dismas.

Scripture is silent on this. So those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief went to heaven without being baptized” are adding to Scripture.

Similarly, those who say, definitively, “The Good Thief was baptized!” are adding to Scripture.

We simply do not know. Thus, it is* an option* to say “He was baptized” or “He wasn’t baptized”, as both are entirely possible, given the silence of Scripture on this.
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The penitent thief might have been baptized into the baptism of John, but he would not have received Christian baptism, which was instituted after the Resurrection.
 
RyanBlack said:
The penitent thief might have been baptized into the baptism of John, but he would not have received Christian baptism, which was instituted after the Resurrection.
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Jesus and his disciples went out and baptized…whose baptism was that?
 
Just to get back to the original question: the same thinking must be applied to babies born in eras and parts of the world in which their is absolutely no chance of baptism. Think of babies who died in remote parts of the world long before there was any missionary activity, or those born today to parents of other faiths. There would be many millions of these little people over the millennia.
 
hansard said:
Just to get back to the original question: the same thinking must be applied to babies born in eras and parts of the world in which their is absolutely no chance of baptism. Think of babies who died in remote parts of the world long before there was any missionary activity, or those born today to parents of other faiths. There would be many millions of these little people over the millennia.
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A fair question. Is there a difference of whether or not the parents are Catholic (or a non-Catholic Christian) or a Saudi Arabian Muslim family who loses a baby at birth?

Since I began writing this I can only assume that many, many babies have died without being baptized. Can we really say that none of them are going to Heaven? And if we say that some aren’t then can we say that they all aren’t? Or if we say that some are, shouldn’t we just as easily be able to say that all are? Since one baby is as innocent as the next one.
 
dronald said:
Since I began writing this I can only assume that many, many babies have died without being baptized. Can we really say that none of them are going to Heaven?
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Since the Bible is silent about the fate of unbaptized babies, we must say: we can hope for their salvation.

*Anything else is creating a god after one’s own image. * Creating a god that conforms to our own tastes and preferences.
 
PRmerger said:
Since the Bible is silent about the fate of unbaptized babies, we must say: we can hope for their salvation.

*Anything else is creating a god after one’s own image. * Creating a god that conforms to our own tastes and preferences.
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So when Early Church Father’s would boldly proclaim that in order for an infant to be saved one must be baptized they were creating their own god? After all, it had not been defined, correct?
 
dronald said:
So when Early Church Father’s would boldly proclaim that in order for an infant to be saved one must be baptized they were creating their own god? After all, it had not been defined, correct?
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Give me the context of what they said, please. Sources.

Also, can you please answer: given what you know of the Catholic Church, are you proposing that the CC is simply ignoring the verses which you believe declares unbaptized babies to be in heaven?
 
dronald said:
So I was talking about this in another thread, but I think it’s a good topic for all Religions/denominations (I don’t only seek Christian opinions).

My question isn’t “Is it possible?” but rather “Are you certain?”

A stillborn baby, an aborted baby, or parents who just didn’t think a baby should be baptized; can you say with certainty that the baby goes to Heaven?

I’m really interested in all opinions.
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No one can be certain because Christ never revealed it to us in those terms. But we can guess that it is the will of God because he said heaven is made of these.

But no one knows the mind of God.
 
PRmerger said:
Give me the context of what they said, please. Sources.
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Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear,** that bath of regeneration**, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’-whether in Adam or in themselves-‘and come short of the glory of God.’" (Augustine - On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius, 2, 4)

St. Augustine (On the Soul, Book III) says “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” A still stronger passage from the same doctor (Epistle 28) reads:“Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ,” St. Ambrose (II De Abraham., c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:" No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity."

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
PRmerger said:
Also, can you please answer: given what you know of the Catholic Church, are you proposing that the CC is simply ignoring the verses which you believe declares unbaptized babies to be in heaven?
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The CC believes that babies must be baptized, so it would be ridiculous for them to say they go to Heaven if not. At the same time, it would be ridiculous for them to say that they don’t go to Heaven because that is ridiculous.

The CC interprets things their own way, no doubt. I don’t know why they blame infants for what their parents do despite the passages of God saying to stop doing that. Especially Jeremiah 31, which is the chapter quoted in Hebrews. God says “In those days they won’t say” and then says “in those days I will bring a new covenant.”

If I didn’t think the CC got some things wrong sometimes, I would be Catholic.
 
dronald said:
The CC believes that babies must be baptized, so it would be ridiculous for them to say they go to Heaven if not. At the same time, it would be ridiculous for them to say that they don’t go to Heaven because that is ridiculous.

The CC interprets things their own way, no doubt.
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So still not sure of your answer. You believe the Church is just ignoring the verses which you believe declare unbaptized babies to be in heaven?
I don’t know why they blame infants for what their parents do despite the passages of God saying to stop doing that.
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You do not understand the teaching of Original Sin, then. What you reject is a phantom.

No infant is blamed for what their parents do.

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.–CCC 405
 
dronald said:
Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear,** that bath of regeneration**, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’-whether in Adam or in themselves-‘and come short of the glory of God.’" (Augustine - On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius, 2, 4)

St. Augustine (On the Soul, Book III) says “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” A still stronger passage from the same doctor (Epistle 28) reads:“Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ,” St. Ambrose (II De Abraham., c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:" No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity."

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
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Anyone else, dronald? You said Early Church Fathers. Plural.

After I read the quotes from the ECFs (plural), I will respond. Thanks.
 
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