Do you believe with utmost certainty that unbaptized babies go to Heaven?

[benjohnson]

A full life elsewhere? You mean like another planet?

Not nesessary: God could give them a full life in an exact duplicate of this world as they would have experienced had they lived.

In a similar way that speculative physics postulates multiverses.

 

[dmar198]

I have actually read a very bizarre argument against this idea because it would actually encourage abortion. The example goes as follows. If a mother truly loved her unborn child, truly loved her, she would not want to take the risk that her child might grow up and through the child’s actions the child would either be condemned to purgatory, or even worse the child could possibly go to hell. To prevent this possiblity, the mother, out of pure love for her child, would abort her child to assure that the child would go to heaven, even at the risk of her own soul, which in a sense would be the most selfless loving act one could perform, thus ensuring her own salvation as well.

I don’t agree with that argument because I don’t think it could ever be right to kill an innocent person, not even to get people into heaven. Do you think it could? And if so, how would you get around the objection that the ends don’t justify the means?

 

[openmind77]

Not nesessary: God could give them a full life in an exact duplicate of this world as they would have experienced had they lived.

In a similar way that speculative physics postulates multiverses.

Interesting! - We would all also exist in that duplicate world? What happens to babies who die in that duplicate world? Or don’t they? Don’t you think a simpler solution than creating a whole new world is possible? Like reincarnation?

 

[benjohnson]

Interesting! - We would all also exist in that duplicate world? What happens to babies who die in that duplicate world? Or don’t they? Don’t you think a simpler solution than creating a whole new world is possible? Like reincarnation?

I’m not postulating this as what God does for the infant dead - only that He could effortlessly cause something to happen for these souls to let them decide to chose His love. My example was only one of an infinite ways that God could fulfill His promises.

A sort of ‘reincarnation’ is theologically possible in ancient Christian thought - at one point, babies were though to go through ensoulment at a point later than conception, though this theory (not doctrine) has fallen out of favor.

 

[openmind77]

I’m not postulating this as what God does for the infant dead - only that He could effortlessly cause something to happen for these souls to let them decide to chose His love. My example was only one of an infinite ways that God could fulfill His promises.

A sort of ‘reincarnation’ is theologically possible in ancient Christian thought - at one point, babies were though to go through ensoulment at a point later than conception, though this theory (not doctrine) has fallen out of favor.

Many babies die a few minutes after birth - this later than conception theory presumably does not affect them.

Anyway you seem to prefer speculating on complicated theories like the creation of duplicate worlds (among infinite ways) to take care of these babies rather than the simple one of reincarnation in the same world.

So if when the Christ returns (which I believe will happen in a couple of years) and says that God creates thousands of duplicate worlds to take care of dead babies, would that mean there would be a change in Christian doctrine? Would that shake your faith? What if he says reincarnation is a fact? Is that harder to believe or more of a blow to doctrine and faith?

 

[10gr8kids]

I think it could be as simple as God giving them all the knowledge they need to choose in an instant. Time is something of this world, God is not bound by time. My understanding is that angels did not need time to choose good or evil. This is why I pray for the souls of my children, hoping to give them extra graces to help them choose God. Of course, this is just how I imagine it. Like others have pointed out, God is able to give the opportunity for salvation to souls in any infinite ways that we cannot even fathom. And He is always just and merciful, no matter what we may think is just and merciful.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not postulating this as what God does for the infant dead - only that He could effortlessly cause something to happen for these souls to let them decide to chose His love. My example was only one of an infinite ways that God could fulfill His promises.

True.

And let’s not forget The Great Divorce.

 

[Theo520]

I’m pretty sure Baptism of infants is all about the Parents (and Godparents).
It’s extremely important that the Priest makes them promise to teach and bring up the child in Gods way and by the laws set out by him. They also renounce Satan and pronounce God.

I feel God knows the heart of babies, and they shoot strait to the front of any queue.

 

[Even_So]

I don’t think I can be certain, because I don’t know of any source that has the command of absolute certainty that clearly says the unbaptized can go to heaven.

My intuition tells me that a nice person would let an unbaptized baby into heaven, and therefore God would.

But I don’t think my intuition is a source of absolute certainty. Therefore, I don’t think I can be certain on this point.

Does that make sense?

God cannot be compared to any man. And nice people won’t get into heaven because they are nice. It’s because they accept Jesus as Savior. I hope that makes sense.

 

[theoda]

So I was talking about this in another thread, but I think it’s a good topic for all Religions/denominations (I don’t only seek Christian opinions).

My question isn’t “Is it possible?” but rather “Are you certain?”

A stillborn baby, an aborted baby, or parents who just didn’t think a baby should be baptized; can you say with certainty that the baby goes to Heaven?

I’m really interested in all opinions.

Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.’
St. Augustine, Father & Doctor of the Church

" The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish"- Pope St. Innocent I

 

[Even_So]

“Let the children come to me. Do not prevent them…” Yup.

 

[dronald]

Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.’
St. Augustine, Father & Doctor of the Church

" The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish"- Pope St. Innocent I

Can Innocent’s be considered a statement of faith and morals from the chair of Peter and therefore binding? Why or why not?

 

[theoda]

Can Innocent’s be considered a statement of faith and morals from the chair of Peter and therefore binding? Why or why not?

I think it is only his opinion and not infallible. However, I’m not completely sure.

 

[Even_So]

I don’t know how helpful this is in most cases. I know not all experiences are the same, but I’ve had 8 miscarriages and in the last 6 I knew the babies heart had stopped beating well before I actually miscarried. All would appear well, I would start bleeding, go in immediately for an ultrasound and the baby would already be dead. In one instance it was over a week before I actually miscarried. So unless I could baptize the baby in the womb there is not much that can be done, and my understanding is we cannot baptize babies in the womb.

Wow. God bless you.

 

[Even_So]

If God is loving and just, of course babies get an E ticket to heaven. Babies liable to God’s wrath is nonsense. This isn’t divine speculation but common sense! Nothing is certain, It is possible God doesn’t exist however unlikely. To think that millions of aborted babies could be in hell because of original sin…Thats a sick thought.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Amen to that! Do we really believe that God would destroy the soul of an innocent baby? I shudder to think a child who has not had a chance to make a choice would be punished. I believe the parent will be culpable for the child.
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[Even_So]

Many babies die a few minutes after birth - this later than conception theory presumably does not affect them.

Anyway you seem to prefer speculating on complicated theories like the creation of duplicate worlds (among infinite ways) to take care of these babies rather than the simple one of reincarnation in the same world.

So if when the Christ returns (which I believe will happen in a couple of years) and says that God creates thousands of duplicate worlds to take care of dead babies, would that mean there would be a change in Christian doctrine? Would that shake your faith? What if he says reincarnation is a fact? Is that harder to believe or more of a blow to doctrine and faith?

No to reincarnation.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Interesting a Hindu would believe Christ is coming soon. And Amen! It will be soon! You have more faith than many so called “Christians”. How about when the meeting of the Lord in 1st Thessalonians 4. Is it possible that we go up as souls and the fleshly bodies stay down here and go on as if nothing happened? Notice Hebrews 9:28 says “… that look for him.” Maybe that’s another thread to start.

 

[Encountering_Wi]

YES. I believe that unbaptized babies go to heaven. God would not hold it against my miscarried babies and deny them His heavenly home.

 

[dmar198]

God cannot be compared to any man. And nice people won’t get into heaven because they are nice. It’s because they accept Jesus as Savior. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense and I am in total agreement with all of that. Those are several of the reasons I don’t trust my intuition to give me “utmost certainty.” I try to only have faith in God, and not trust my own understanding.

 

[Robyn_p]

Can Innocent’s be considered a statement of faith and morals from the chair of Peter and therefore binding? Why or why not?

No. Not binding. A pope will always make it extremely clear if something he says is binding or not. There’s a certain lingo they use. (For lack of a better term.) He’ll either condemn a teaching by an anathema, or he’ll positively teach something by saying, “I declare and define that this teaching must be definitively held by all the faithful.” etc…

Notice Innocent doesn’t do any of that here. He says the idea is foolish, sure, but not anathema. Which he would have done if this was something Catholics were required to give religious assent to.

 

[cena]

So I was talking about this in another thread, but I think it’s a good topic for all Religions/denominations (I don’t only seek Christian opinions).

My question isn’t “Is it possible?” but rather “Are you certain?”

A stillborn baby, an aborted baby, or parents who just didn’t think a baby should be baptized; can you say with certainty that the baby goes to Heaven?

I’m really interested in all opinions.

For certain? No. I certainly hope so