Do you believe with utmost certainty that unbaptized babies go to Heaven?

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Tomyris said:
As usual I find your posts lucid, intelligent, knowledgeable and charitable, and I am in agreement with most of what I’ve read on this thread that you’ve posted.
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Thanks, doll!
I would say we don’t have an absolute knowledge one way or the other. Where God has chosen to be silent we must follow. BUT there are a few things we do know that we can use to “bracket” the issue.
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  1. God is perfect love and justice. Whatever He does with this issue, then, is not something we can cite as an infringement on either.
  2. God does save some, others he allows to perish. I also think of Esau and Jacob in Romans 9, where Esau was in trouble even before he was born.
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I don’t think we can say either that all unbaptized babies go to heaven, or that all perish. We can say we don’t know, and be comforted with understanding my point 1.
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What you have posted above: very Catholic! 👍
 
Tomyris said:
As usual I find your posts lucid, intelligent, knowledgeable and charitable, and I am in agreement with most of what I’ve read on this thread that you’ve posted.

I would say we don’t have an absolute knowledge one way or the other. Where God has chosen to be silent we must follow. BUT there are a few things we do know that we can use to “bracket” the issue.
  1. God is perfect love and justice. Whatever He does with this issue, then, is not something we can cite as an infringement on either.
  2. God does save some, others he allows to perish. I also think of Esau and Jacob in Romans 9, where Esau was in trouble even before he was born.
I don’t think we can say either that all unbaptized babies go to heaven, or that all perish. We can say we don’t know, and be comforted with understanding my point 1.
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Do Protestants, particularly Presbyterians, believe this too, that is, we don’t know whether unbaptized babies go to heaven? That’s not what I heard Billy Graham say once, not that he represents all Protestant viewpoints.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes, meltzerboy. The CC believes that not a single person (save 1) deserves heaven. Only those who are pure, with God’s sanctifying grace infused in their soul, can enter heaven.

No. The sins of the parents are not automatically revisited on their children.

However, the effects of their sins are indeed revisited upon their children.

And that’s quite logical. Consequential. Natural.

We see that in other areas–if parents receive an inheritance, and then squander it…the natural effects of their sin (extravagant spending) is limned in their children’s subsequent poverty.
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Thanks for the information, PR.
 
PRmerger said:
Nope.

I said we deserve hell.

Not that we’re going there if we’re unbaptized.
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Ok,

You said:
  1. We deserve hell (Even through no fault of our own at the moment of conception).
  2. No one can enter heaven without sanctifying grace.
Before I draw the obvious conclusion of these statements, I think we need to take a time out and define terms.

What is the Catholic teaching on the manners of sanctifying grace?
 
PRmerger said:
As it applies to this discussion: God can bestow His grace on anyone He desires.
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I understand that, in fact I quoted Rom 9 in regards to mercy as well.

But the question wasn’t about who does God bestows His grace. But what is the Catholic teaching on the manners of receiving sanctifying grace.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
But what is the Catholic teaching on the manners of receiving sanctifying grace.
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The Catholic teaching, as it applies here, is that we are bound by the Sacraments,but God is not.

God can bestow his grace on anyone he desires.

We, however, cannot rely on this hope and assume, therefore, that the normative means of our reception of sanctifying grace isn’t necessary.
 
dronald said:
So I was talking about this in another thread, but I think it’s a good topic for all Religions/denominations (I don’t only seek Christian opinions).

My question isn’t “Is it possible?” but rather “Are you certain?”

A stillborn baby, an aborted baby, or parents who just didn’t think a baby should be baptized; can you say with certainty that the baby goes to Heaven?

I’m really interested in all opinions.
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Seems to me that absolute certainty about something for which there is no empirical evidence and for which there is not even a claim of divine revelation sounds more like superstition or wishful thinking.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Seems to me that absolute certainty about something for which there is no empirical evidence and for which there is not even a claim of divine revelation sounds more like superstition or wishful thinking.
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Yep.

It’s creating a god after one’s own image.
 
PRmerger said:
The Catholic teaching, as it applies here, is that we are bound by the Sacraments,but God is not.

God can bestow his grace on anyone he desires.

We, however, cannot rely on this hope and assume, therefore, that the normative means of our reception of sanctifying grace isn’t necessary.
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Ah, now we are getting out of the woods ;).

This situation, however, places us between a rock and a hard place. Does it not?

For example, why would anyone want to delay baptism? If we indeed took this as seriously as the teaching stresses. It would be prudent of us and the Church to arrange baptism immediately after birth, as circumstances allow. Why would anyone, in their right mind, want to delay a means of sanctifying grace?

Take RCIA for example. Baptism is delayed, on purpose, to ensure that the catechumen has full knowledge of what the Catholic Church is and at a minimum, Her basic teaching of the Faith. I can see where the teaching of Baptism of desire can have its origins in. In this case, were the catechuman to die before he is received into the Church - we would have withheld a means of sanctifying grace to this soul.

On the other hand, we have no problem accepting Triune baptismal formula from other Christian faiths.

If we were to take seriously the fact, like you have correctly expressed, that “we cannot rely on this hope and assume” that God will give His grace to this catechumen — it would be prudent for us to baptize this soul and then continue on with his education and carry on the normal calendar schedule for the rest of the sacraments.

After all, the eunuch didn’t have to enroll in classes before baptism :D. In fact, baptism is the one thing throughout Scriptures that is given immediately upon reception into the Church.

I completely understand the need of education for confirmation and more importantly - first communion.

I will always have a hard time understanding that one of this little fellas:

http://i3advantage.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/smiling-baby.jpg

Is deserving of eternal damnation. As it has been expressed here.
 
dronald said:
So I was talking about this in another thread, but I think it’s a good topic for all Religions/denominations (I don’t only seek Christian opinions).

My question isn’t “Is it possible?” but rather “Are you certain?”

A stillborn baby, an aborted baby, or parents who just didn’t think a baby should be baptized; can you say with certainty that the baby goes to Heaven?

I’m really interested in all opinions.
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Even logically, I don’t understand how such a certainty would hold together. If dead infants are certain to go to heaven then my next question would be “What’s an infant?” 0-2? So if unbaptized and dead at age 3, then arbitrarily straight to hell but not at age 2? Or 3-year-olds are a grey area? But not 2 year olds? This could lead to all sorts of absurdities in thinking, imo.
 
PRmerger said:
That’s because you believe, at your very core, that you deserve heaven.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

No one does.

Heaven is not our due just because we exist, Isaiah.
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:nope: No PR… to attach belief to others that they don’t have is not only uncharitable but bears false testimony as well.

The **actual **subject is babies. That’s the OP. Not what I believe at my very core.

I deserve hell, I have sinned against God.

However, you are ok believing that one of those little fellas **deserve **hell.

I am not ok with that. More so, when the definition of **deserve **is “to do something worthy of reward/punishment”.

Can I please ask you to stop saying that I believe anyone deserves heaven? I have not expressed that opinion and what I am asking is about your opinion and others about babies deserving hell. Thank you
 
benjohnson said:
Scripture doesn’t give a clear answer to mechanism of God’s love for these children, but in it’s broad sweep it reveals to us a God who died for sinners us on the cross. We’d can therefore boldy proclaim that He will take care of those who die too early though no fault of their own - even if we don’t know how.
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benjohnson said:
So we may not necessarily be in disagreement.
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Reading your last posts, I agree. Scripture does lead us to a faith in God, and thus with a moral certainty that He is a God of greater mercy than we can know. How can we even consider doubting the mercy of the God of John 3:16?

Yet, for Catholics, this is not something we believe to be revealed with absolute certainty.

I think the whole idea of Limbo is an intellectual way of reconciling our own lack of understanding of the nature of God. Oh, and thank you for bouncing this back and forth with me.
 
meltzerboy said:
Do Protestants, particularly Presbyterians, believe this too, that is, we don’t know whether unbaptized babies go to heaven? That’s not what I heard Billy Graham say once, not that he represents all Protestant viewpoints.
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Here’s Billy billygraham.org/answer/were-brokenhearted-because-the-baby-wed-looked-forward-to-having-for-years-died-after-only-10-days-of-life-i-suppose-we-have-lots-of-questions-about-why-god-let-this-happen-but-my-main-question/

I can’t recall any discussions on this subject with anyone. My post was just sort of off-the-cuff me.

On the other hand, I suppose there are a lot of baptized people who go to hell, a subject of more pressing concern to me personally.
 
meltzerboy said:
Do Protestants, particularly Presbyterians, believe this too, that is, we don’t know whether unbaptized babies go to heaven? That’s not what I heard Billy Graham say once, not that he represents all Protestant viewpoints.
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Speaking only of what I’ve heard and read from various Evangelicals, the most common belief within that broad grouping is that there is nothing to hinder innocents, unable to have any actual guilt, from being taken into their Father’s love in heaven.
 
Tomyris said:
I can’t recall any discussions on this subject with anyone. My post was just sort of off-the-cuff me.

On the other hand, I suppose there are a lot of baptized people who go to hell, a subject of more pressing concern to me personally.
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I recall reading an article a few years ago from a conservative Presbyterian or Reformed leader who gave pretty detailed reasons why he thought it was perfectly reasonable to believe deceased infants are among the elect. I’m too sleepy to try to find it, though.:o
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Even logically, I don’t understand how such a certainty would hold together. If dead infants are certain to go to heaven then my next question would be “What’s an infant?” 0-2? So if unbaptized and dead at age 3, then arbitrarily straight to hell but not at age 2? Or 3-year-olds are a grey area? But not 2 year olds? This could lead to all sorts of absurdities in thinking, imo.
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I don’t see why it has to lead to all sorts of absurdities in thinking. We do know, at the very least, that a newborn baby is innocent of the guilt of committing actual sin. Sure, they have the self concern implanted in them by God, which is necessary for the survival of the human race, as animals also have, but that’s not actual sin in a baby any more than it is in an animal.
 
pnewton said:
Reading your last posts, I agree. Scripture does lead us to a faith in God, and thus with a moral certainty that He is a God of greater mercy than we can know. How can we even consider doubting the mercy of the God of John 3:16?

Yet, for Catholics, this is not something we believe to be revealed with absolute certainty.

I think the whole idea of Limbo is an intellectual way of reconciling our own lack of understanding of the nature of God. Oh, and thank you for bouncing this back and forth with me.
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Brilliantly said!

What would your opinion be of a baby “deserving hell”?
 
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