But that’s the thing, isn’t it: from what I’ve read, Rcw is talking about people who (among other things) have conversion of heart. I think it’s impossible for someone to have that without following God – and vice versa.
He hasn’t informed me about what He thinks about Catholicism. Maybe He wants me to figure it out on my own.
Yes, but you are asking from the Catholic perspective, which is fine because… you’re a Catholic.
I’m answering from the non-Catholic perspective, because you are asking it to all on the boards; Catholic and Non.Just because someone is partaking of the Lord’s Supper in any denomination/congregation doesn’t mean their “are saved” or “will be saved,” etc…
Thank you for saying so.
Cultural Catholics without personal faith; meaning those that perhaps have been baptized, confirmed, first communion, etc… without actually believing Jesus is God, was crucified, died, and rose again, etc…
Truth. But to have the conversation from my perspective, these different things have to be considered alongside of it. If the question was; can a Catholic who is devoted to God, believes the gospel message, believes in grace, charity, and faith, believes in Jesus in all He is and has done, believes in the sacraments, etc… can they be following God? Then my answer would always be; of course.
Hi Peter, nice to see your serious side! I agree with your statement here, I think it is correct. Now let’s look at the OP question. Can one follow God by devoting to the Catholic faith? I would say that sure one can if he has first experienced a conversion of the heart. But just having devotion to the Church (any church for that matter) does not guarantee a conversion of the heart.
if one is not converted in heart, one is not devoting to the Catholic faith, no matter how much they follow for social or political reasons.
I see your application of the words “devote, devoting, devotion” and agree with that principle. Do you believe the vast majority of Catholics including priests sincerely believe that?
So just to broaden this discussion slightly let’s say another question were asked: does everyone who is devoted to the GOP care about the unborn and the elderly? If part of the definition of devoted to the GOP is caring about the unborn and the elderly, then the answer would have to be Yes.
Sorry you lost me here. I’m not familiar with the GOP.
Grand old party- Republicans.
Thanks. Ok, I must dense as I am not connecting the dots.
After reading and re-reading your question here I would answer “no” since care of the unborn and the elderly is only a part of the definition of devotion. If it was the total definition then the answer would be “yes.”
I’m not frustrated that you would answer from a non-Catholic perspective. I am trying to distinguish your tendency to focus on Catholics who aren’t “converted in heart” or deny some of the faith. The questions I’ve been asking, are about the Catholic Faith, which calls for the conversion of heart. Even at Mass, we proclaim “we lift our hearts to the Lord”. And I posted a Teaching from the Catechism that recognizes the initial and the constant conversion of our hearts away from the old nature. I am often puzzled how someone can go to Mass, especially for years, and not see and hear a constant call to conversion and belief. What does the Creed say? If someone is participating without conversion to belief, they are not devoting to the Catholic faith, but riding along with the motions for social or political reasons.Yes, but you are asking from the Catholic perspective, which is fine because… you’re a Catholic.
Do you think the Catholic faith is opposed to what you are saying? We know that we are to partake in a worthy manner.
I believe you, and believe you genuinely seek the depths of the faith. No one can do it without His Spirit giving all understanding.
Yes, that person would be receiving in an unworthy manner. It would also be sacrilege, no? But Paul seems to suggest that believing those things (Jesus is God, was crucified, died, and rose again) does not guarantee one is walking in the faith either. He instructs Timothy to command the flock to provide for one’s family or they are denying the faith and worse than an unbeliever.
Well good to know since those are tenants of the Catholic faith.
I would agree. Now would God be calling one person to the Catholic Communion, and his neighbor to the Protestant communion?
Right. My question is intended to cause others to contemplate whether they believe if devoting to the Catholic faith would be following God.
I don’t have a tendency to focus on Catholics who aren’t converted in heart, I’m only focusing on them because I see it as relevant to your question from my perspective. I understand why you don’t see it on the same level as I do, but I have to include it to answer your question from the protestant side of the Tiber.
But, I have to include it because it is stressed repeatedly here on CAF (and elsewhere) that once someone is a Catholic they are always considered Catholic. That matters because then every type of Catholic is included when we are exchanging ideas.
But that’s not where we’ve gone in the conversation; the Lord’s supper and who does or does not, or can and cannot partake has been, hence why I used that example.
Yes, if there is a person who needs conversion. I think God guides us individually to where we need to be to give us the best chance, for us as individuals, to grow in depth of faith and change and our lives.
I know from experience how frustrating this can be.I do think He wants us all together, but where that is or what that looks like… well, I haven’t got there yet, though He’s always trying to guide me, I’m sure. I’m glad you feel you are there, or know the answer, but I don’t.
This is where we are not seeing this with the same mind. God leads individuals, but not in separate directions as the whole body. The Lord’s Supper is His body that all are called to. That congregation that offers His body is claiming to have His Teaching also, because why would they have His Supper and not know His Teaching? God doesn’t guide individuals opposed to one another.
I appreciate your struggle. It is part of the “good fight”. I struggle (and fail at times) to follow Him in faith. I don’t think I am immune to falling away from grace and receiving Him worthily. It is a difficult thing to be a good Christian! Knowing where to fight, who to fight with, what to fight for, and the tools to fight with is only half the battle. We need love to compel us.I do think He wants us all together, but where that is or what that looks like… well, I haven’t got there yet, though He’s always trying to guide me, I’m sure. I’m glad you feel you are there, or know the answer, but I don’t.
I guess that’s a main difference; I don’t see fellow Christians as “opposed” to one another, “even” Catholics and Protestants or Orthodox, and even when we bicker. He’s attempting to lead us to The End point, which is Heaven. I can’t think that He leads each individual the same. Now, if we all were immortal on this earth do I think He’d lead us all to the same place? Yes. But we don’t have that kind of time here and now. Do I think He wants us all in the same place in this phase of our existence? Yes. But I think He’ll take Heaven as the ultimate goal those that are Christian.
That’s why praying for one another is so valuable!
Thank you, I appreciate any prayers you feel called to pray for me.I know from experience how frustrating this can be.
Best of luck no matter where it leads you and thanks for your contribution at CAF. I love your well thought out and articulated posts.
Thank you, I appreciate any prayers you feel called to pray for me.
I don’t see why not. There’s nothing in Catholicism among the major points of belief and faith that would preclude someone from serving, worshiping and obeying Jesus. Does that mean all Catholics are doing so, probably not. But being Catholic is not something I’d see as a detriment to serving Christ.